# An EXTREMELY tough problem (what would you do?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [June 22, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272 "2008-06-22T18:13:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 5:57am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/21 "2008-06-24T05:57:39Z")
> [@Warren](#): > > Sorry to be so politically incorrect, but sexual orientation is not decided before birth. Well, it’s clear that you’re very intelligent, but you’re wrong! And, excuse me but how did you dignosis this girl’s emotional state from 2 posts! ---
**Author:** ![Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cab0a1/32.png) [@Daddy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daddy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/22 "2008-06-24T06:09:51Z")
Such an interesting thread, this is. For the people that believe your orientation is set before birth, and will not change, does the same apply to a straight person? no chance of turning gay? ---
**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/23 "2008-06-24T06:14:40Z")
Emotional factors and life changing events can and will have an impact on your emotional state and sexual preference, but I have read a number of articles and studies which lead me to believe that intended sexual orientation was established through chemical influences on the brain well before birth. ---
**Author:** ![Pheraoh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/pheraoh/32/857_2.png) [@Pheraoh](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Pheraoh)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/24 "2008-06-24T06:32:54Z")
SiriusC, Worry not so much as to how people are gay. Just focus on learning if she’s gay. [Instant Female Magic](https://a314.com/product/instant-female-magic/) and lots of Instant Honesty. If you’re feeling really ballsy, ask her if she’d like to accompany you to a strip club. If she asks why just tell her “I’m askin because I think you like what I like” For a more stealthy approach go to a bar and or club with your IFM and loads of IH. After the number of drinks you feel appropriate start pointing out the other hot chicks in the room. Point out a girl to her and say she’s a nice ass and ask her what she thinks etc. There’s a host of interesting ways going about it. ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/25 "2008-06-24T08:24:17Z")
Those aren’t bad ideas, Pheraoh. Nature Vs Nurture - Given appropriate environmental pressures, a ‘heterosexual’ person might conciously turn ‘homosexual’. It’s a balance of both, one can always override the other given appropriate situations. ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 8:25am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/26 "2008-06-24T08:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > For the people that believe your orientation is set before birth, and will not change, does the same apply to a straight person? no chance of turning gay? Yes it does. I am sorry Warren I have to disagree with you as well. [Is There a ‘Gay Gene’?](http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene) The advice to sleep with her then ask her orientation really rather shocked me. He obviously cares about this person very much and that would not be a wise move. > [@](#): > > I have known many women who went back and forth in their sexual orientation. Thats called Bi-sexual which is different then homosexual > [@](#): > > suspect you are dealing with someone who is very sexually repressed. That is what you have described, emotional intimacy without the physical. Why would you come to that conclusion. My BF is male and believe me we are close but I am not sexually repressed because we dont sleep together. Sirius The best thing to do no matter how hard or embarrasing it may seem is to communicate. As others have said the whys do not matter. Tisha ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 8:36am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/27 "2008-06-24T08:36:43Z")
Without opening a can of worms here, I don’t think all lesbians are necessarily born that way. I’ve known of women who were bisexual who have become jaded with men, so they stick with other women and identify themselves as lesbians. Do you know anything about her past relationship experiences? That may give you some clues. -D4 ---
**Author:** ![Wolfy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wolfy/32/965_2.png) [@Wolfy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wolfy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/28 "2008-06-24T15:13:22Z")
> [@data4](#): > > Without opening a can of worms here, I don’t think all lesbians are necessarily born that way. I’ve known of women who were bisexual who have become jaded with men, so they stick with other women and identify themselves as lesbians. Do you know anything about her past relationship experiences? That may give you some clues. > > -D4 This is true, I have known several females that were scared or turned off by men, mainly because of previous physical, mental or emotional stresses put on them by relationships or activities. I several times through my college era, spent time talking with, working with and studying with several young women who had some form of abuse in their past. these ladies were not directly attracted to me, but were able to spend time in close proximity to me because they quickly learned I was not going to do something they didn’t want. This was mainly from the actions they saw when we were in larger groups. I was slightly older than most of the guys on the campus, and more of a big brother figure. It did help that most of them were friends with a gal I wanted and was working on trying to date 😃 . Most of them had sworn off boys, but after a couple of months they were hounding me for “ear time” or a back-rub. I learned a lot about how the female brain works, but not enough. I am still searching for a good way to start to cross the line from enemy to friend with some women quicker. Now not so much for a relationship beyond a business relationship, but being able to work with them would make it easier on some occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/29 "2008-06-24T18:23:44Z")
> [@mark-in-dallas](#): > > Here’s a couple of interesting articles on testosterone and fetal development: > > [BrainMind.com](http://brainmind.com/AbnormalBrainDevelopment.html) > > [Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin](http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/SEN/CH12.HTM#b6-HOMOSEXUALITY) > > [HowStuffWorks “How Men Work”](http://people.howstuffworks.com/men.htm) Thank you Mark, now I don’t have to dig up my posts from about 18 months ago dealing with this very issue.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/30 "2008-06-24T18:23:46Z")
Woofie, if the girls are hounding you for back rubs, you learned a good amount of how the female brain works. 😃 Women aren’t enemies, not as a collective anyways. Maybe it helps if you don’t approach women as if they are communist reds during the cold war or anything. Some..only some… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/31 "2008-06-24T18:24:17Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > Thank you Mark, now I don’t have to dig up my posts from about 18 months ago dealing with this very issue.😃 Hmm? Does make me curious..I might have to go digging. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/32 "2008-06-24T19:11:58Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > Thank you Mark, now I don’t have to dig up my posts from about 18 months ago dealing with this very issue.😃 No problem Jim. I actually couldn’t find the study that I was really looking for, which talks of the fetal testosterone wave altering synaptic pathways, and how the testosterone affects other developmental differences in male and female brains. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wolfy/32/965_2.png) [@Wolfy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wolfy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/33 "2008-06-24T19:37:24Z")
> [@Phya](#): > > Woofie, if the girls are hounding you for back rubs, you learned a good amount of how the female brain works. 😃 Backrubs and fixing their computers. Mainly becasue I was the best. ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/34 "2008-06-24T20:47:00Z")
> [@mark-in-dallas](#): > > … I actually couldn’t find the study that I was really looking for, which talks of the fetal testosterone wave altering synaptic pathways, and how the testosterone affects other developmental differences in male and female brains. I think that may be one of the links I posted, but then again I’m old and senile.🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Kitten](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/kitten/32/1051_2.png) [@Kitten](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Kitten)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/35 "2008-06-24T21:28:33Z")
Guys? This is the kind of discussion that can get unpleasant real fast due to bookoo misunderstandings. Not criticizing _anyone_ or implying _anything_ or saying to stop, just wanted to mention in passing that Respect is key. ---
**Author:** ![Warren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/97f17d/32.png) [@Warren](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Warren)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/36 "2008-06-24T22:53:48Z")
Ain’t that the great thing about this forum. We can express disparite ideas and risk learning and thinking about things in different ways. There are too many places where nothing is acceptable but toeing the party line, “Be a good little sheeple and everything’s gonna be okay. Just don’t risk thinking for yourself.” I am glad w’re not like that. My politically incorrect ideas have gotten or or less the reception I expected. Consider the Christianiac fundamentalists who believe that homosexuality is a sin and that people have a choice about becoming a homosexual. Tisha, I think you are risking using the exact same logic to the opposite outcome. I am all in favor of choice, but some choices are made with the heart (and lower chakras). There is nothing shocking in what I am saying. I am not suggesting he rape her. I am telling Sirius to give her a choice she can understand emotionally. By demanding that she make a rational decison in advance, you are requiring that she foreclose on her future by using logic where logic does not apply. Many people are presupposing that this girl knows what her sexual orientation is, and all Sirius has to do is ask and he’ll get an answer. I don’t see that at all. > [@SiriusC](#): > > However, she’s texted me late at night, texts me almost too much, we do a lot of shit together, she was insanely nice to me during 2 really tough times, & I get that smile…know what I mean? > > **I’ve carefully tried prying it out of her but she seems to avoid it.** > > The only thing missing from this equation is sex. You throw that in & we might as well be dating. Demanding directions from someone who doesn’t know the way is only going to get you more lost. If she were willing to tell him she would have already. He tells us he has given her the opportunity. Either she’s not sure herself or the situation is as Tish describes: > [@tisha23](#): > > Perhaps she is just not ready to come out or she is afraid of losing your friendship if she does. She may sense that your attracted to her and is using this attraction to hang onto the friendship. And even if Tish’s scenario is correct you still have to ask: Why is this friendship so important to her? And why is Sirius getting such a romantic vibe. I am not going to tell him to mistrust his feelings on this. Given the opportunity she may realize that she is more enticed by the prospect of physical intimacy with this man than she was previously willing to admit. I am not telling Sirius that he should try to turn this girl. He has decided for himself that that is what he wants to do. I think it is a longshot. I’m just saying if that is what he wants, this is the moral and ethical way of going about it. Good luck. Don’t screw it up and deepen her mistrust of men. From what I have read so far, they are well into Mystery’s Comfort phase. Either it moves forward to the Seduction phase from here or Sirius is stuck in the friend zone. I don’t think he will be satisfied with that. There are lots of suggestions of using [Instant Shine](https://a314.com/product/shine/). That would be my first impulse as well, but Tater tells us it doesn’t work well with bisexual women, so I will defer to his greater experience. Tater says they like TAF and TAH. My concern with TUTH and any product with significant -none is that it tends to imply aggression. That might be particularly frightening to her if her past has experiences of physical abuse – which is only one possible explaination of her reluctance to get romantically involved with men. ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/37 "2008-06-24T23:46:04Z")
Sexual identity is not the same as sexual orientation. You can be bisexual somewhere on the Kinsey scale, but identify as gay or straight. And if you identify as gay or straight, you may occasionally have sex outside of that identity. Identities can change, but I don’t think orientation does. Aside from the current fad among 20-something girls to act out seductively in bars to attract guys 🙄, publicly identifying as bisexual is actually a harder life than identifying as gay. If you’re bi, you don’t have a tribe. Lesbians in particular can be _very_ hard on women who “turn.” In that case it’s kind of analogous to passing for white back in the day - _so_ not cool. I would not agree with advice to _press_ someone to declare an identity. In the OP’s situation, both her identity and her orientation are beside the point. I think he could stop pussyfooting around and just hit on her and let the chips fall. If she’s gay, she’ll slug him in the arm and they’ll be buds the same as always. Otherwise she can accept or reject him on his own merits - just cuz she’s bi or straight doesn’t mean she wants to go there _with you_, you know 😉 so stop trying to play it safe by figuring it all out ahead of time. and good luck! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/38 "2008-06-25T02:54:40Z")
Carrie, those were great points you just mentioned, especially differentiating between sexual identity and sexual orientation as that is essentially the two things being discussed as if they were the same. You also make a good point that you shouldn’t press her for information, if she were comfortable talking about it, she obviously would. I don’t know if my post could be interpreted in such a fashion, but my emphasis is that if he can’t ask her directly about her sexuality (which in turn leads to discussing his own sexuality), then he’s not comfortable, which might not make his friend any more comfortable. Whereas, if the OP were to show that he’s fully comfortable with any discussion of sexuality, it might encourage her to open up. Basically, as you said, to stop pussyfooting around and to play his cards on the table. Certainly tells you if you should fold or keep going pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![SiriusC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/siriusc/32/1764_2.png) [@SiriusC](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SiriusC)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/39 "2008-06-29T00:26:17Z")
First, this is all **extremely** great advice & view points **from all**! There have been some turning points in this story: I overheard a conversation she had with one of her teammates (she plays tennis) & she definitely went in the “lez” direction. She’s interested in one of the female trainers where she plays tennis. And she’s continued to drop more & more hints that she’s into chicks saying things like which girls are cute, etc. I’ve been wearing a lot of [Instant Honesty](https://a314.com/product/instant-honesty/) & she’s a bit more loose about what she tells me, but she never **tells me** , y’know? And our conversations get deep & personal too. FURTHERMORE, I’ve been flirting with her more & going in the sexual direction, **& she goes for it**. Sometimes she prompts it. One example that sticks out in my head is that I asked if I could take advantage of her reading ability to help me out with something & she says I can take advantage of her in other ways too. SEE!? See the mixed signals I get? And the texts just keep coming from her. Our eyes meet at a distance & we both smile _in that way_, y’know? Like, “ahh, there s/he is”. If I didn’t know about this lesbian shit I’d say for 100% certainty that she’s got a crush on me. She fucking texted me within an hour after we saw each other the other day. I have a possible date with another girl & she seems worried about it & is coming on a little stronger now. ---
**Author:** ![ariadne](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/ariadne/32/770_2.png) [@ariadne](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ariadne)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/40 "2008-06-29T03:23:07Z")
Sirius, it’s possible that she’s bisexual with an overriding preference for women, but that you trip her trigger for men. Based on your last post, I’d agree that it sounds like she has a thing for you. I would continue to flirt with her, and up the ante a bit so that it goes more to the sexual end of the spectrum without being crass. If she goes with it, keep increasing the tension until something has to give, so to speak. 😉 [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272.md?page=3)