# An EXTREMELY tough problem (what would you do?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [June 22, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272 "2008-06-22T18:13:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Warren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/97f17d/32.png) [@Warren](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Warren)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/41 "2008-06-29T05:21:35Z")
I think ariadne is right. From what you’ve said it sounds like her concern may be whether you will be okay with her dating other women. If you get sexually involved with her will you be jealous of her girlfriends? Another similar but slightly different possibility is that she would eventually consider an exclusive and serious relatinship with you at some point, but she doesn’t want to risk getting involved with someone who might become judgemental about her bisexual nature or past relationships with women. ---
**Author:** ![SiriusC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/siriusc/32/1764_2.png) [@SiriusC](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SiriusC)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/42 "2008-06-29T17:00:20Z")
> [@Warren](#): > > I think ariadne is right. From what you’ve said it sounds like her concern may be whether you will be okay with her dating other women. If you get sexually involved with her will you be jealous of her girlfriends? > > Another similar but slightly different possibility is that she would eventually consider an exclusive and serious relatinship with you at some point, but she doesn’t want to risk getting involved with someone who might become judgemental about her bisexual nature or past relationships with women. Yeah I hope she’s right. Great advice from you & her. Tomorrow I’m gonna steer that conversation as much as I can. I actually thought about the whole bi scenario. If we went into a relationship but she still wanted to sleep with women I’d be totally okay with that as long as it’s just a sex thing. That’s an outlet that I can’t fufill. And on the flip side there’s no way I’d sleep with another women even if it’s just sex. Just the way I’m wired I guess. (And hey, what’s [P83](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p83/)? You mentioned that in a previous post here but I can’t find any solid info on it.) I should also mention that she’s 19 (20 on Tuesday) & I’m 25. She says things here & there that kinda shows her age, but it’s cute. The reason why I’m bringing this up is that she might be in that experimental “I dont know” phase of her sexuality. How should I work that angle? ---
**Author:** ![Gone\_with\_the\_Wind](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gone_with_the_wind/32/2227_2.png) [@Gone\_with\_the\_Wind](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gone_with_the_Wind)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/43 "2008-06-29T18:40:06Z")
Interesting thread. Theories aside, my experience is that as soon as I declare "this person can’t/would never do that, they do it. Human beings don’t like to be limited by theories, PC or otherwise. > [@SiriusC](#): > > …The reason why I’m bringing this up is that she might be in that experimental “I dont know” phase of her sexuality. How should I work that angle? I suggest working that angle by being completely honest and sincere. Show her who you are. If it is a good match she will be attracted. ---
**Author:** ![Warren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/97f17d/32.png) [@Warren](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Warren)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/44 "2008-06-29T21:24:22Z")
> [@SiriusC](#): > > And she’s continued to drop more & more hints that she’s into chicks saying things like which girls are cute, etc. She is testing you here. > [@SiriusC](#): > > If we went into a relationship but she still wanted to sleep with women I’d be totally okay with that as long as it’s just a sex thing. And on the flip side there’s no way I’d sleep with another women even if it’s just sex. Jealousy is the demon you are going to have to fight. I suspect she will react extremely badly, catastrophically badly at the slightest whiff of jealousy on your part. And what’ll make it worse is that she’s liable to get jealous herself and be in complete denial about it – outraged if you were foolish enough to mention the possibility. Mark-in-dallas is going to say that I am reading more into the situation than I could know, but that is my extrapolation from the patterns I’m seeing so far. > [@SiriusC](#): > > I’ve been flirting with her more & going in the sexual direction, & she goes for it. Sometimes she prompts it. One example that sticks out in my head is that I asked if I could take advantage of her reading ability to help me out with something & she says I can take advantage of her in other ways too. … I have a possible date with another girl & she seems worried about it & is coming on a little stronger now. I don’t know what’s going on in her mind, but these messages don’t seem so mixed to me. She wants you. Don’t be afraid to touch her. > [@SiriusC](#): > > I should also mention that she’s 19 (20 on Tuesday) & I’m 25. She says things here & there that kinda shows her age, but it’s cute. The reason why I’m bringing this up is that she might be in that experimental “I dont know” phase of her sexuality. How should I work that angle? Thanks for clarifying your ages. I had assumed you were both in your early twenties. I think she is confused about here sexual orientation or as you put it, “in that experimental ‘I dont know’ phase of her sexuality”. Girls in their early twenties can be volatile and fascinating creatures. I suggest you assiduously maintain a “witness consciousness” – that is, be able to step back and look at the situation from an uninvolved person’s perspective. Easier said than done. I have known middle-aged men who gave up careers, divorced wives, moved across the country, etc to accomadate women (girls) this age. Of course, it always ends badly. After a few of months, the girl changes her mind, outgrows the situation and goes in a different direction. The man, having given up what he had spent his whole life creating, is screwed. It is hard to feel sorry for a man who misjudges so badly, but, Sirius, I am sure you are in a position to understand just how compelling a twenty year old can be. Go for it. This could be one of your life’s great adventures. Throw yourself into it emotionally and enjoy, but keep a perspective. Don’t make any permanent committments for a few years. In my experience, a girl doesn’t have a hint of stability until she is at least twenty-three. This is not only for your own protection, but for the longevity of the relationship. Over-commit in a rapidly changing environment and you are suddenly feeling desperate as cross-currents shift. Nothing is less attractive to a twenty-something girl than desperation. I have been experimenting with the so-called female [pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/). I now feel comfortable recommending TAL for your situation. And P83, definitely when she is flirting and acting interestred. The best source of information is probably a thread entitled [P83, a compilation: including ‘sexual/erotic’ effects started](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/p83-a-compilation-including-sexual-erotic-effects/5789) by Socrates. > [@P83, a compilation: including 'sexual/erotic' effects](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/p83-a-compilation-including-sexual-erotic-effects/5789): > > Deleted post ---
**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/45 "2008-06-29T21:49:55Z")
> [@Warren](#): > > Jealousy is the demon you are going to have to fight. I suspect she will react extremely badly, catastrophically badly at the slightest whiff of jealousy on your part. And what’ll make it worse is that she’s liable to get jealous herself and be in complete denial about it – outraged if you were foolish enough to mention the possibility. **Mark-in-dallas is going to say that I am reading more into the situation than I could know** , but that is my extrapolation from the patterns I’m seeing so far. Nope, I actually completely agree with you on this. ---
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/46 "2008-06-29T21:51:36Z")
some good advice, partic from Carrie and Warren. in matter of the heart, observing behaviour is much more useful than paying too much attention to what people say. discussing attraction is a bad idea. sexual orientation is more fluid for women than men. 20 yr old women often don’t know what they want… [Q&A with Lisa Diamond - The Boston Globe](http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2007/12/30/qa_with_lisa_diamond/?page=1) “Most women’s behavior had little to do with the “gay for life” story. Some switched their sexual identity many times. In fact, when asked to define themselves as “gay,” “straight” or “bisexual,” a number of women refused to take any label at all.” ---
**Author:** ![Electrix69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Electrix69](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Electrix69)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/47 "2008-06-30T06:18:54Z")
Phernoob opined: _“People are born into their orientation.”_ Yes, male and female. _“Nothing wrong with that.”_ That’s YOUR opinion. Others say there’s _everything_ wrong with this DEVIANCY, i.e. mental mix-up. E69 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Forte](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mr.forte/32/1294_2.png) [@Mr.Forte](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mr.Forte)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2008, 11:37am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/48 "2008-06-30T11:37:00Z")
SiriusC, man at first i thought you were doomed…but after reading your last two posts i think totally the opposite. To me this girl seems more attracted to women..but still willing to be with men. and you sir are the man she wants. Go for it. I think shes asking for it ---
**Author:** ![SiriusC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/siriusc/32/1764_2.png) [@SiriusC](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SiriusC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/49 "2008-07-11T15:53:30Z")
Thanks Forte’, that gives me encouragement. However, she’s at the very very least a real good friend of mine so I’m also trying to “play it smart”. I kinda hit her with the whole “your only 20 & you dont know what you want/like”, but only in general. But she definitely agreed. So that also gives me more hope. The biggest problem now though is timing. We keep leaving town as soon as things heat up. But motherfucker, I had her in my apartment last night cos she stopped by just to pick something up. I decided to put on one spray of Ammo just to see is anything would happen, & she kinda seemed…interested. I’ve used ammo around her before & it did NOTHING & furthermore I’ve read up in the thread & forum & the general thought is that ammo, etc turns lezbos off. I would’ve played into her interest but…sigh…I was hit with a fireball on the 4th & I have 2nd degree burns on my hand & face. It’s healed up really nicely but I was still self conscious. Haha, I decided that my 1st physical move on her would be a shoulder rub, but my fucking hand. Ah well, we do have some kind of “date” coming up so I’m gonna device some sort of plan to drop the ambiguity. And Warren, believe it or not she actually is an extremely interesting person even if she’s just 20. I’m only 5.5 years older so maybe I can appreciate her thoughts a bit more that a middle-aged man could, but she seems smarter than her years suggest. Thanks for the suggestion with the P83, but what’s TAL?? Thanks!.!.! I gotta keep checking this more. ---
**Author:** ![SiriusC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/siriusc/32/1764_2.png) [@SiriusC](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SiriusC)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/50 "2008-07-12T18:43:40Z")
Would it be crazy to try a product deisgned for women to attract men? I was listening to a radio show news segment about how the brains in gays are similar to their sexual opppsites. In other words gay men might have a a brain similar to a straight woman, & vice versa. This girl & I clearly have a strong connection. The only thing missing is sex. If I’m wearing something like, ahem, [instant sexiness](https://phera.com/product/instant-sexiness/) might I be able to give off a femme vibe to her femme brain? Does this logic make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Gone\_with\_the\_Wind](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gone_with_the_wind/32/2227_2.png) [@Gone\_with\_the\_Wind](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gone_with_the_Wind)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/51 "2008-07-13T00:51:39Z")
> [@SiriusC](#): > > … > This girl & I clearly have a strong connection. The only thing missing is sex. If I’m wearing something like, ahem, instant sexiness might I be able to give off a femme vibe to her femme brain? Does this logic make sense? I’d suggest coming off as yourself. If you’re a male that means being a man. The male/female thing has been going on for quite a while pretty successfully. ---
**Author:** ![Warren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/97f17d/32.png) [@Warren](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Warren)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/52 "2008-07-14T00:02:40Z")
> [@SiriusC](#): > > And Warren, believe it or not she actually is an extremely interesting person even if she’s just 20. I’m only 5.5 years older so maybe I can appreciate her thoughts a bit more that a middle-aged man could, but she seems smarter than her years suggest. Thanks for the suggestion with the P83, but what’s TAL?? Did I say twenty year old women are not interesting?? They may be the most interesting creatures on the planet. They are volatile and unstable because they are at an age where anything is still possible. And because they are free from their parents without (in most cases) being tied down with children and family of their own. And because their youthful energy has an irrational draw on men (and girls) and makes them believe they have even more choices than they actually do! I’m sticking with “one of life great adventures.” Good luck. I have known twenty year old women who were older than their age. Again, among the most interesting creatures on the planet. But their is a price to be paid for growing up too fast. You may not recognize what that is in her case (I don’t know either), but by now you have had hints. I am not denegrading this girl. I would certainly not give up on her. Every relationship has challenges. I am trying to forewarn you where I think those challenges might be. Tater has recommended P86 with [P83](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p83/) in a ratio of four to one (more P86). It gives a very tactile sensuous buzz. She will really want to be touched. Instant Sexiness A is TAL with TAH. Instant Sexiness B is TAH with TAL. The Instant Sexiness formulas also have copulins. TAL is the confident strong female. TAH is the kitten. TAL and TAH seem to work best together. A little of these on a man seems to help some women feel more comfortable with him. In your case I think it’s worth trying a spray of Instant Sexiness A or about 5mcg each of TAL and TAH. It’s something you’ll have to experiment with to find the right balance. ---
**Author:** ![FIRE\_AND\_ICE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@FIRE\_AND\_ICE](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/FIRE_AND_ICE)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/53 "2008-07-14T04:23:55Z")
> [@SiriusC](#): > > You’re kinda courting this girl who drops many signs that she’s into you. She’s hot as hell. GREAT personality. She’s already one of your best friends. Lot’s of texting & smiles & shit like that. > > However, for all the evidence that she’s into you there’s just as much evidence that she’s a full blown lesbian. > > What products do you use? Do you make a pass at her or do you try to draw out her sexual orientation? You dont want any awkwardness cos she’s such a good person & you’ve already formed this DEEP connection with her. > > What do you do?? You overanalyzing and though I didn’t read past this post – I imagine with 50 replies that others are overanalyzing. There are a lot of women that swing both ways. A LOT. Have fun with it… As for mones I would keep the none stabalized… ---
**Author:** ![SiriusC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/siriusc/32/1764_2.png) [@SiriusC](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SiriusC)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272/54 "2008-07-15T22:02:55Z")
> [@Warren](#): > > Did I say twenty year old women are not interesting?? They may be the most interesting creatures on the planet. They are volatile and unstable because they are at an age where anything is still possible. And because they are free from their parents without (in most cases) being tied down with children and family of their own. And because their youthful energy has an irrational draw on men (and girls) and makes them believe they have even more choices than they actually do! I’m sticking with “one of life great adventures.” Good luck. > > I have known twenty year old women who were older than their age. Again, among the most interesting creatures on the planet. But their is a price to be paid for growing up too fast. You may not recognize what that is in her case (I don’t know either), but by now you have had hints. I am not denegrading this girl. I would certainly not give up on her. Every relationship has challenges. I am trying to forewarn you where I think those challenges might be. > > Tater has recommended P86 with P83 in a ratio of four to one (more P86). It gives a very tactile sensuous buzz. She will really want to be touched. > > Instant Sexiness A is TAL with TAH. Instant Sexiness B is TAH with TAL. The Instant Sexiness formulas also have copulins. TAL is the confident strong female. TAH is the kitten. TAL and TAH seem to work best together. A little of these on a man seems to help some women feel more comfortable with him. In your case I think it’s worth trying a spray of Instant Sexiness A or about 5mcg each of TAL and TAH. It’s something you’ll have to experiment with to find the right balance. Thanks Warren, man. You seem to really know a LOT about this stuff. That P86 sounds very very tempting & will probably be my next buy, but I have to scrape up the dough first. I’ve actually bought a lot from here in the past couple of months so maybe I should slow down 🙂 Your advice is very valuable & very encouraging. “One of life’s great adventures”. Indeed! I’m getting together with her sometime this week so I’ll post the results of that encounter. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-extremely-tough-problem-what-would-you-do/14272.md?page=2)