# An idea for more controlled testing and reporting **URL:** \ **Category:** Store Announcements & Feedback\ **Created:** [August 16, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635 "2008-08-16T14:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![xev](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/xev/32/1993_2.png) [@xev](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/xev)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/1 "2008-08-16T14:12:05Z")
Okay, I’m a scientist (nerd alert!). I’m sure the Androtics folks know that the kind of volunteer testing that is reported here has a huge source of bias due to the placebo effect, and due to the fact that human behavior, sexual attraction, etc. is very complex. Obviously, double-blind controlled studies would be needed to provide real scientific evidence of these products’ effectiveness. These cost money, and I realize that Androtics is a business, not a research institution. However, I have an idea that could improve the usefulness of volunteer reporting, and that seems to me could be implemented in a cost-effective way. Here is my idea: When preparing test mixes to make available to reporting users, make a “blank” to go with each [pheromone product](https://a314.com/shop/). The blank would be a bottle containing all the fragrance base ingredients, extenders, fixatives, preservatives, and whatever else goes into the mixes besides the pheromones (I’m assuming the cost of these ingredients is far less than the cost of the pheromone ingredients). The test mixes and their corresonding blanks could have removable labels that can be removed to reveal whether they are the test mix or the blank, so that users can either test them blindly or not. When reporting, the users could then reveal which way the products were used. For example, say Androtics wants to hear reports on MX274. I order it, and get two bottles. One says MX274a and one says MX274b. One is the true mix and one is a blank with the cookie fragrance base, fixative, etc. I wouldn’t know which is the pheromone product. I could alternate between them, reporting on observations on days I use “a” and “b”. Alternately, I can peel away the outer label to find out which is the blank and which is the pheromone product, if I want to do that. It would not be a true double-blind controlled study, but would be an improvement over just asking for feedback on the products. regards, xev ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/2 "2008-08-16T14:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I realize that Androtics is a business, not a research institution. 😃 Actually it is a research institution. The sales from the store fund the research. They do outside (of the forum) studies as well and then compare what they get here to the outside testers. > [@](#): > > For example, say Androtics wants to hear reports on MX274. I order it, and get two bottles. One says MX274a and one says MX274b. One is the true mix and one is a blank with the cookie fragrance base, fixative, etc. I wouldn’t know which is the pheromone product. I could alternate between them, reporting on observations on days I use “a” and “b”. Alternately, I can peel away the outer label to find out which is the blank and which is the pheromone product, if I want to do that. Test packs can sometimes have one in it so they can see through reports whats going on and who is having a hard time with the products. It is a ideal though and I am sure Jassy will consider it. Tisha ---
**Author:** ![runnerxvr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@runnerxvr](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/runnerxvr)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/3 "2008-08-16T21:51:56Z")
Hello girls! I want to give my piece of idea. Acually I believe that Xev had a really good idea. But I also believe that most of the guys would peel the label to see what’s in the bottle and the placebo effect would be the same. So, my small idea is the following. Androtics could ask to some “certified” guys, I mean, those that are known for reporting always, to test new stuff. If they agree, Androtics could sent them a TOGO vial with just a serial number over, for example “runnerxvr0001”. So, Runnerxvr would just report to Androtics that the vial called “runnerxvr0001” gave him this result or less. The vial could contain both Pheros or water, but only Androtics would know. So, this is just my small idea. But maybe it’s too tricky, so forget it :-). See ya Franz ---
**Author:** ![SiriusC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/siriusc/32/1764_2.png) [@SiriusC](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SiriusC)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/4 "2008-08-16T22:03:07Z")
I actually had an idea for my own “study”. I’m a bit of a researcher myself (BA in Psy) but only out of interest. Anyway, I have IShine 4x & I’m thinking of spraying a freind with it the see if they like the scent. Then I just see what happens or just ask them. I’ll make a journal about it as soon as I start it. I like this stuff but I do wonder how much of it actually is placebo. For example, I bought P79 based on reports that it motivate people, but then after buying it & using it I read that it’s more like an enhancer for whatever phero you’re using. Before I read that I was thinking it was working really really well, now not so much ☹ ☹ ☹ ---
**Author:** ![xev](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/xev/32/1993_2.png) [@xev](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/xev)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/5 "2008-08-16T22:42:49Z")
> [@runnerxvr](#): > > Hello girls! > I want to give my piece of idea. Acually I believe that Xev had a really good idea. But I also believe that most of the guys would peel the label to see what’s in the bottle and the placebo effect would be the same. So, my small idea is the following. Androtics could ask to some “certified” guys, I mean, those that are known for reporting always, to test new stuff. If they agree, Androtics could sent them a TOGO vial with just a serial number over, for example “runnerxvr0001”. So, Runnerxvr would just report to Androtics that the vial called “runnerxvr0001” gave him this result or less. The vial could contain both Pheros or water, but only Androtics would know. So, this is just my small idea. But maybe it’s too tricky, so forget it :-). > > See ya > > Franz The issue with this would be that few would be willing to purchase something that may or may not be the [pheromone product](https://a314.com/shop/). If testers are given a real and control bottle, they have what they paid for and can either do blind tests or not. xev ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/6 "2008-08-16T23:36:55Z")
For those interested I found a post from MHarris touching on this subject. Of course that dosnt mean your ideals are not being heard and considered but I thought it may interest people. > [@](#): > > **MHARRIS** There’s at least one dud in the kit, too. That’s how we can tell which testers hallucinate results, and which ones really have a knack for social observation. > > Some people seem to literally hate me for blind testing everything (always begging to be preprogrammed), but our placebo free tests have work marvelously. > > Also, there’s social collusion on forums… “agreement” to what things do, that sometimes override other legitimate effects that these chemicals are producing. > > If people would accept unlabeled “-none”, I think things would go even further. > > Even with well known pheromones such as [androstenone](https://a314.com/product/turn-up-the-heat-tuth/), I think they’re a little too well “known”. People are overlooking the subtleties. They’re overlooking effects that they would’ve seen if only they didn’t have their expectations well programmed, and the effects all decided and agreed upon. > > I’d just as well release ExperiMone kits completely blind, with everything labeled with letters. It seems like it’d kill sales to do that, but if it were accepted, there’d literally be a RENAISSANCE in pheromones. Truly. I swear! (until collusion really took hold in forums, which would slow discovery) > > On to another point… Even though the data is not complete (mostly because a lot of pheromone aware testers get overzealous and create mixes before they’ve fully tested one compound), there’s now more workable pheromones than ever. > > What’s more, due to the tests over the years, I’ve known which chemosignals to invest the funds in to achieve efficient synthesis routes. > > Eventually, you’ll have a gaggle of new pheromones, all at costs similar to what you have now. > > Mind you, with our self-sales we hide people from true costs. We don’t sell things based on actual cost. We absorbed a great deal of that (especially when we used to send out free kits), otherwise we would’ve been fighting an uphill battle. > > Now when it comes to making consumer products or supplying to other companies, costs matter more. They want everything cheap, they don’t want to absorb costs or offer anything too new or unproven. We just can’t do that with most truly novel compounds. If you absorb costs on a wholesale level, and you die. > > Synthesis routes are just like routes to work, or back home. The more efficient it is, the “cheaper” it in terms of time and “fuel”. In chemistry, you talk about [yield](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_yield). > > You can get wherever you want by flying around the world 3 times, but it’s more efficient to go in a straight line. Same thing with chemistry. Research chemistry is expensive, and commercial chemistry is all about finding affordable routes to the most useful compounds. > > Anyway, we’re getting there… in terms of commercial viablity. Making the rare and difficult, a little easier and more common. > > I thank everyone here who’s been part of our tests. > > I’ll be bring you more experimentals in the future. > > Quote: > Originally Posted by **Aurelie** > _The other thought I had last night was that some of these studies were done quite a few years ago. If some of the pheromones are unavailable, I’ll just look at it this way - I have to have faith that R&D done by guys like you might actually have produced pheromones that are finer-tweaked (is that a real word?)_ > > **MHARRIS…** We certainly get more data by offering this out to the public, and to a small, private test groups. > > It also shifts costs costs around to make things happen. If you do research at univerties, you’re often talking eons for the most boring, staid data on earth. Those places suck up money with a moonsized straw, and they don’t make much happen, unless they have someone truly passionate and inspired conducting the research. > > I think the university research in this area is something more for poeple to put into sales letter. The real “action” is where the enthusiasts are. The real proof is in the pudding in the pheromone field. The proof is amongst the people who use 'em. > > The second greatest hotbed of action are the experimenters I round out myself, who I get to test totally blind. I tell them to watch for skin reactions, not pheromonal effects. Then I ask them about social effects later on, see if their enhanced skin helped their social life. These social experiments produce even better results than most enthusiasts. It’s real time, real life social experimentation, with the world as the observation chamber. It works. > > My modus operandi is always: test first, describe second. > > Not even university studies do that, usually. They almost always have an idea of what they’re looking for. There’s always bias at one or more points in an experiment. > > I hate to do that. I delight in removing bias points, where and when at all possible. > > If you always go in looking for something, you might just find it, whether it’s real or not… and ignore something else entirely. > > Anyway, thanks for your input. Much appreciated! 🙂 So they do have methods in place to rule out placebo effects and although he can not reveal them all here because then you would know what to look for lol there is a method to the madness. I know test molecules already go out to certain members to test that you dont see on the forum. I have received a few myself. I know they have outside testers to compare results with. Plus they pretty much have some ideal as to what a molecule does when they put it in the store. At least MHarris does, I think they keep the rest of the crew in the blind because people like SteveO are excellant testers. I am sure as the company grows changes will be made though and it is growing rapidly ---
**Author:** ![SteveO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@SteveO](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SteveO)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/7 "2008-08-18T19:54:02Z")
Great job finding that post Tisha. I’ve been looking for it for like two days now, without luck. Thanks for posting it ---
**Author:** ![v0m1t](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/v0m1t/32/520_2.png) [@v0m1t](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/v0m1t)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/an-idea-for-more-controlled-testing-and-reporting/17635/8 "2008-08-23T21:57:19Z")
> [@xev](#): > > When preparing test mixes to make available to reporting users, make a “blank” to go with each pheromone product. The blank would be a bottle containing all the fragrance base ingredients, extenders, fixatives, preservatives, and whatever else goes into the mixes besides the pheromones (I’m assuming the cost of these ingredients is far less than the cost of the pheromone ingredients). The test mixes and their corresonding blanks could have removable labels that can be removed to reveal whether they are the test mix or the blank, so that users can either test them blindly or not. When reporting, the users could then reveal which way the products were used. I _really_ love this idea. I would love to get something like this in my next order even over a complementry to-go bottle of whatever…! Not that I dont like to free togo bottles 😃 If my next order is instant honesty, instant shine, a314, p74.. I’hd even love to get an unlabbled (or covered) to-go bottle. Even if its a dud, I wont regret it, and I will only look at the name after finishing off the 5ml.