# Are Pheromones (at least the ones from Androtics) Vegan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Pheromone Theory & Molecules\ **Created:** [September 24, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010 "2010-09-24T02:53:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![exact](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a87d85/32.png) [@exact](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/exact)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/21 "2010-10-03T20:32:27Z")
> [@JosieWilder](#): > > ??? I shouldn’t have read this thread. I think I’m going to throw up. fossilized poop of the Hyrax? Are you serious? Whale sperm? Whale puke? so thats the secret formula for ammunition 😮 ---
**Author:** ![SteveO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@SteveO](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SteveO)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/22 "2010-10-03T21:45:55Z")
Ummm, its a secret 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Sebastian](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/john_sebastian/32/1060_2.png) [@John\_Sebastian](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/John_Sebastian)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/23 "2010-10-04T00:09:07Z")
> [@exact](#): > > so thats the secret formula for ammunition 😮 No. Most definitely not. To repeat myself from before in case it got lost in the thread: "That post from Jasmin refers to an older (2006) special edition of [A314](https://a314.com/product/a314-classic/) , we do not use any other product derived from animal except for the no-kill collected deer musk. It mentions one other animal derived product, however we no longer use it (haven’t for some time). Right now the only product used is the deer musk in [A314](https://a314.com/product/a314-classic/) , which is still collected no-kill. Ambergris is not currently in any of our product and to my knowledge hasn’t for some time, although I can go back and look it up. But I know nothing in our facilities contain it, nor do we even have it as a raw material. I’m glad to see people are doing their research and are concerned with animal safety. So rest easy knowing that the deer are still frolicking happily and are probably oblivious to the musk being collected behind them in their path. " ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/24 "2010-10-09T03:51:30Z")
> [@John\_Sebastian](#): > > That post from Jasmin refers to an older (2006) special edition of A314, we do not use any other product derived from animal except for the no-kill collected deer musk. It mentions one other animal derived product, however we no longer use it (haven’t for some time). Right now the only product used is the deer musk in A314, which is still collected no-kill. Ambergris is not currently in any of our product and to my knowledge hasn’t for some time, although I can go back and look it up. But I know nothing in our facilities contain it, nor do we even have it as a raw material. > > I’m glad to see people are doing their research and are concerned with animal safety. So rest easy knowing that the deer are still frolicking happily and are probably oblivious to the musk being collected behind them in their path. Thank you for your response John. I do know its an older post thats why I also mentioned the scent pack changed a few times since then. If you read all of my responses in full you will see I am the one who said I didnt believe they used ambergris anymore so I am not sure why your quoting in response to me. > [@](#): > > I’m glad to see people are doing their research and are concerned with animal safety. So rest easy knowing that the deer are still frolicking happily and are probably oblivious to the musk being collected behind them in their path. Actually the only way to get musk “no kill” is by tranquilizing them and taking out the musk pod from their glands which is worse then just killing them to get it because they need it to survive. You cant collect it by following them around or looking in their droppings. Its illegal to kill or take the musk glands from the Musk Deer because they are also on the endangered list. However… Its more likely that Androtics uses something called white musk which is the synthetic version of deer musk. This is what most good perfumers use so technically we are back to being vegan 😃 Tisha ---
**Author:** ![John\_Sebastian](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/john_sebastian/32/1060_2.png) [@John\_Sebastian](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/John_Sebastian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/25 "2010-10-09T13:01:06Z")
> [@tisha23](#): > > Thank you for your response John. > > I do know its an older post thats why I also mentioned the scent pack changed a few times since then. If you read all of my responses in full you will see I am the one who said I didnt believe they used ambergris anymore so I am not sure why your quoting in response to me. You posted the link, I was giving you credit for finding it. > [@tisha23](#): > > Actually the only way to get musk “no kill” is by tranquilizing them and taking out the musk pod from their glands which is worse then just killing them to get it because they need it to survive. You cant collect it by following them around or looking in their droppings. Its illegal to kill or take the musk glands from the Musk Deer because they are also on the endangered list. Actually Tisha, they collect them nearly the same way no-kill antler is collected. _“The musk deer gets uncomfortable when the musk sac is full where it feels itchy and irritated. So, the musk deer attempts to scratch that sac on a rough rock to peel it off, where eventually that sac gets stuck on the rocks in a good condition without spilling any of the musk. Here, musk experts collect those sacs which are called at this stage: Musk Mouse which is extremely rare and expensive nowadays. Musk comes from several countries but the quality is different of course: China and Tibet are the best producers of musk then come Nepal and Siberia in a second place. Several governments strictly banned the killing of the Musk Deer as it is on the verge of extinction like other species due to man’s greed.”_ (from: [Animals and Perfumes (Musk)](http://hubpages.com/hub/Animals-and-Perfumes-Musk)) > [@tisha23](#): > > However… Its more likely that Androtics uses something called white musk which is the synthetic version of deer musk. This is what most good perfumers use so technically we are back to being vegan 😃 > > Tisha Also Tisha I’m vary familiar with what we use which is real deer musk, not synthetic, as I’ve seen and worked with it in our lab before. It is no-kill, collected in the way described above. (Extremely expensive to obtain but worth it to have as no kill.) The only product we sell with deer musk is A314. ---
**Author:** ![empath](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/empath/32/2351_2.png) [@empath](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/empath)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/26 "2010-10-09T20:10:34Z")
> [@John\_Sebastian](#): > > I’m glad to see people are doing their research and are concerned with animal safety. So rest easy knowing that the deer are still frolicking happily and are probably oblivious to the musk being collected behind them in their path. As a dirty hippie vegan, this makes ME want to frolic… and I’m not big on frolicking ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010/27 "2010-10-09T22:46:20Z")
> [@John\_Sebastian](#): > > You posted the link, I was giving you credit for finding it. > > Actually Tisha, they collect them nearly the same way no-kill antler is collected. > > _“The musk deer gets uncomfortable when the musk sac is full where it feels itchy and irritated. So, the musk deer attempts to scratch that sac on a rough rock to peel it off, where eventually that sac gets stuck on the rocks in a good condition without spilling any of the musk. Here, musk experts collect those sacs which are called at this stage: Musk Mouse which is extremely rare and expensive nowadays. Musk comes from several countries but the quality is different of course: China and Tibet are the best producers of musk then come Nepal and Siberia in a second place. Several governments strictly banned the killing of the Musk Deer as it is on the verge of extinction like other species due to man’s greed.”_ > > (from: [Animals and Perfumes (Musk)](http://hubpages.com/hub/Animals-and-Perfumes-Musk)) > > Also Tisha I’m vary familiar with what we use which is real deer musk, not synthetic, as I’ve seen and worked with it in our lab before. It is no-kill, collected in the way described above. (Extremely expensive to obtain but worth it to have as no kill.) > > The only product we sell with deer musk is A314. Actually John, I am not a animal activist nor am I opposed to Androtics using musks in A314 as long as they make people aware of it so they can make a informed choice. However, I am going to have to disagree about your no kill theory, the link you provided is from a perfume blogger who obviously doesn’t research before he/she speaks. There is no such thing as a “Musk mouse” I did give the blogger the benefit of the doubt and did a extensive search as well as talk to my brother who is a scientist. Course I had to wait for him to stop laughing at me to get his answer. 🙄 The musk sac of a deer is found between the testicles and navel just under the skin of the abdomen. They are used to mark territory in mating and they rarely scrape them unless they are sick or infected. You dont find little sacs of musk laying around on the ground. However your correct , **There is a no kill way** to obtain them though but its not humane. [http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/13896/0](http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/13896/0) > [@](#): > > Musk is an odoriferous secretion derived from the musk gland under the abdomen near the pubis of the male musk deer. The glands weigh up to 30 g and contain about half their weight in musk. There are two methods of obtaining musk. In the first method, the trapped deer is killed in late winter or early spring and the gland is removed. Alternately, musk is collected from deer raised in captivity. The musk is removed from the gland of immobilized animals by use of a special spoon. The musk is collected once or twice a year. [3](http://www.drugs.com/npp/musk.html#ref3) , [4](http://www.drugs.com/npp/musk.html#ref4) The dried whole gland (known as the pod) or the dried glandular secretions inside (musk grains) are employed in commerce as a [perfume](http://www.drugs.com/npp/musk.html#). Although traditionally derived from deer that had been killed for the express purpose of musk collection, the material today is largely obtained from deer specifically raised for musk production. In Nepal and Tibet local subsistence farmers, who would normally make only about eighty dollars a year, can earn one hundred dollars for killing a single musk deer. In china and India musk deer are farmed. The Chinese method is extremely cruel. Females run free in large enclosures, but males are kept in close confinement. Every so often they are caught and held down by many workers. While fully conscious and without any pain killers, a cut is made through the skin and into the musk sac, and the musk granules are scooped out with a spoon. The animal is terrified and struggles against its captors to break free. Indian farms are more humane but still the musk deer must be caught, which is extremely stressful for such a shy, secretive animals. Either way they are defiently not in the mood to frolic after this. The musk from farmed animals is of poor quality, and the maximum gained from each sac is only 14 grams (usually a lot less). If the farms are to be economically viable, the harvesting of the musk must be done without killing the deer. Eighty five per cent of musk traded on the international markets goes to Japan and sells for $US55,000 a kilo within Japan. The legal trade covers for the illegal trade. Musk is a well known Japanese cure for bronchitis, pneumonia and typhoid, asthma, epilepsy and nervous disorders. A popular childhood tonic is made from musk, deer horn and gall stones is a Japanese institution. The same tonic is sold by many chemists as a sex stamina drink. Eating a little musk is said to give one great sexual prowess. Musk can e bought and sold in large quantities in Hong Kong. Chinese fishermen take musk out of China to Hong Kong, using the fishing industry as a cover. Attempts have been made to police the trade, but all efforts fail. Most Musk found in Europe is from china. None is derived in the USA. [Musk (Moschus)](http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/Textbook-Materia-Medica/Musk-Moschus.html) > **[Musk\_deer\_factsheet.pdf](https://wwfeu.awsassets.panda.org/downloads/Musk_deer_factsheet.pdf)** Tisha [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-at-least-the-ones-from-androtics-vegan/42010.md?page=1)