# Are pheromones just placebo? ...answered by MIT scientist **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [December 22, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779 "2016-12-22T22:58:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![masterllama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bcef8e/32.png) [@masterllama](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/masterllama)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/1 "2016-12-22T22:58:31Z")
Hey guys, I see this question all the time about whether these products work or whether they’re just placebo. This post may end up being pretty lengthy so if you want the TL;DR, the short answer is YES…to both questions. The two are not mutually exclusive and it is very possible (in fact very likely) that the products both work AND are largely placebo. This is not a bad thing! I will explain in more detail below. First, let me explain who I am and why you should believe anything that I say. I am not getting paid to post this (although if Androtics would like to give me a discount…I am open-minded LOL 😃). I want to preface by saying that anybody can post anything on the internet. You should always fact check what people say, and I will try to post reference materials to as much stuff as possible so you can do the actual background reading if you’d like. Okay, so back to me: I’ve been testing these products on my own for over 8 years now (you can check my join date on my profile). I also graduated from MIT with a degree in computer science and molecular biology. I’ve attached a picture as proof: [Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet](http://imgur.com/a/Sfg8j) I also currently work at a high stakes financial job where meeting with clients is extremely important. The point I am making is that although I am no expert in pheromones, I do have a strong background in biology and understanding the scientific process. With that out of the way, onto the good stuff. Let’s start to answer the question “do these products work?” with a bottom up approach. What this means is we will break the question down to the lowest fundamental level, and build layers of complexity on top of it. The question we should start with is: do pheromones (in general, not just Androtics’ products) “work” as a form of behavioral communication in humans and other animals? The short answer is yes, and there is scientific research to back this up. This point is WAY more important than people realize. To draw a parallel to East Asian medicine (and I will be doing this frequently because it makes for a good reference point), there is no scientific proof that putting needles into your body would provide pain relief (acupuncture). However, this is evidence that acupuncture DOES provide symptom relief, and this is due to the placebo effect. We’ll get more into this later. To recap, there is scientific evidence supporting the claim that pheromones do influence human social behavior. It is important to distinguish that these are actual studies that study causality instead of correlation and they use proper controls and scientific process. For those curious, I highly recommend reading these studies. One example studying the effect of androstanol is: Kirk-Smith, Michael (1978). “Human social attitudes affected by androstenol”. Research Communications in Psychology, Psychiatry & Behavior. You may not have access to these papers unless you are currently enrolled in a university but try googling. If you search pheromones in humans, you can find some great papers out there. If you are really interested, PM me and I can send you links to more. My point is that there are some homeopathic remedies that people do that have no scientific proof of working; yet, people do them anyway and they actually do work for some people. Pheromones differ from these in that there is substantial evidence that they do work as a form of social communication. So why do things like acupuncture provide real and measurable symptom relief despite no scientific explanation of mechanics of action? The answer is placebo effect. The power of the human mind is grossly misunderstood and underestimated. When a person beliefs something to be true, that thing can have profound and REAL effects on a person’s behavior. There are so many different scientific studies and examples of the power of placebo effect, and I will not list them all here. I highly recommend doing a little googling and you will find A LOT of material on this fascinating subject. I will, however, focus on just one example: the aforementioned acupuncture. The link is attached if you’d like to do the background reading but to summarize: the study found that although acupuncture does provide symptom relief as reported by the patient, it does not provide any additional symptom relief over sham acupuncture in which the patient is led to believe that he/she is undergoing acupuncture, but actually is not (fake needles, rolling paper or another sharp object against the skin, etc.). What is important is that the patient BELIEVES that he/she should feel better. Link to acupuncture studies: [Acupuncture Doesn’t Work | Science-Based Medicine](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/) This same placebo effect clearly applies to a product like a [pheromone spray](https://a314.com/product-category/spray-pheromones/). If a user believes that the product will give him or her more confidence, better charisma, etc., then these effects will reflect in the person’s actions and behaviors. For example, I always wear my A314 before my important business meetings. I believe the actual effects to others to be minimal and insignificant. HOWEVER, wearing the product gives ME confidence and I feel at ease and able to perform at my best while wearing it. The smell of the product has formed an associative memory in my brain. When I smell it, it calms me and gives me a boost of confidence. These are all REAL effects, whether they are entirely placebo or not. To summarize my point, these products DO work, whether they are mostly (or entirely) due to placebo effect or not. We have the ADDED BENEFIT of knowing that unlike acupuncture, pheromones have scientific evidence stating that they are an actual form of behavioral and social communication in humans and other animals. I hope this post was helpful in clearing up some misconceptions about the product and hopefully it’ll put to rest the constant questions regarding their efficacy. Cheers and have fun out there! ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/2 "2016-12-24T00:59:24Z")
How about this: Research over the last ten years reports: 1. Androstadienone (one suspected chemiosignal molecule) has a detection threshold of about 250 micromolar concentration. 2. The amount in sweat is nanomolar (nanograms). 3. 250 uM is 1000 times greater than amounts normally in sweat. 4. 1000 nanograms = 1 microgram. At what micrograms is A1 a [pheromone](https://a314.com/shop/)? ---
**Author:** ![OneEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OneEye](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/OneEye)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/3 "2016-12-24T01:36:54Z")
I actually like the fact that some people don’t believe that they work. Think about it…What is the advantage if everyone thought that they worked. I applaud those who don’t believe as they call me sir and do my bidding without understanding why they do it. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/4 "2016-12-24T17:45:52Z")
One of the largest sweat studies failed to confirm androstenone in the axilla of any male donor. All [pheromones](https://a314.com/) may not be placebo. Androstenone does not qualify as a species-wide human pheromone due to inactivity (ABCC11) in Asians (Chinese). Detection failure in SPME body odor tests is strike 3. This could be tested by sending freebies of AMMO, half with only FF21 and no mones, half also _with_ mones. We will know in about 2 years if 51% of users rate the _with-mones_ superior. Write Brian. Facts and figures beat chit chat every day. **No embargoes**. People vote for MX999 (cologne only) or 998 (real AMMO). No secrets. All public. The big reveal happens after 500 votes. No exceptions. No mix packs either. ---
**Author:** ![Jdub](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jdub/32/1399_2.png) [@Jdub](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Jdub)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/5 "2016-12-25T05:04:42Z")
> [@OneEye](#): > > I actually like the fact that some people don’t believe that they work. Think about it…What is the advantage if everyone thought that they worked. > > I applaud those who don’t believe as they call me sir and do my bidding without understanding why they do it. I’ve got to say I completely agree with this statement. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_F](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/brian_f/32/1573_2.png) [@Brian\_F](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Brian_F)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/6 "2016-12-25T15:41:57Z")
Great post! Yes, there’s a reality to pheromones + the placebo portion. As a human, you get both, whether you like it or not. It may be more accurate to say pheromones (or at least pheromone research) is complicated by the distortions the human mind makes. For the typical pheromone user that just wants a better life, it can actually be enhanced by the same distortions. As it is your case, and for many people. Makes R&D crazy hard, though. It all reminds me of an old joke my parents tell about how their car seems to work faster after a car wash. Feels faster to them, even though it’s not. It wouldn’t objectively dyno any faster. Yet even though the “car wash placebo” is obviously false, the car still exists. It still works as car, regardless of how their mind magnifies or alters their perception of it. Of course, then quantum mechanics comes along and messes all of this up. In quantum physics, maybe a car wash would make a washed car dyno faster, haha. Those guys like to break the rules of everything! I watched “Einstein’s Nightmare” episode of “Secrets of Quantum Physics” last week. [https://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Nightmare/](https://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Nightmare/) Quantum physics is always a mind blow. Can make you question every little thing. Some interesting bits from quantum biology, too, and the scent vibration model. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/7 "2016-12-25T16:28:11Z")
The largest sweat study ever conducted found no evidence of androstenone in sweat when checked against known reference standard from a lab. The faculty approved the final research. This does not mean androstenone products are placebo. It does mean eNone may not be a [human pheromone](https://pheromonelabs.com/) as we know it. If I provide you the text of the study, will you authenticate it is genuine? Are we willing to openly discuss the fact (as shown by lab equipment) than eNone may not exist on the body above trace levels? If PheroTalk now only exists as the 4CHAN of pheromone rumor, I would prefer Androtics close my account and all my posts with it. Call it a boycott. Call it civil disobedience. What ever PTalk is today, it ain’t science anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Jdub](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jdub/32/1399_2.png) [@Jdub](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Jdub)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/8 "2016-12-25T16:41:35Z")
My mixes must be placeboing the hell out of orgasms for women then! If that’s the case, placebo away I say.. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/9 "2016-12-25T17:02:29Z")
> [@Jdub](#): > > My mixes must be placeboing the hell out of orgasms for women then! > If that’s the case, placebo away I say.. Can you **prove** your panty droppers perform better than AMMO in blind tests? Not talk. Prove. Many studies are copyrighted material. I never knowingly post any scientific claim unless I have the quotes on file. I can back every word I said. Can you? FYI Brian has the quotes. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/10 "2016-12-25T20:01:25Z")
Direct quote: _In this comparatively large sample of men (the largest sample in a study of this kind), the compounds androstenone (5α-Androst-16-en-3-one) and androstadienone (androste-4,16-dien-3-one) were not present in any single individual._ Murray, A. (2013). _The role of olfaction in human social interactions_ (Doctoral dissertation, University of Liverpool). ---
**Author:** ![masterllama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bcef8e/32.png) [@masterllama](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/masterllama)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/11 "2016-12-25T20:07:11Z")
> [@monesmadedoit](#): > > Can you **prove** your panty droppers perform better > than AMMO in blind tests? > > Not talk. Prove. > > Many studies are copyrighted material. I never knowingly post > any scientific claim unless I have the quotes on file. > > I can back every word I said. Can you? > > FYI Brian has the quotes. You are allowed to reference a quote…that is not breaking any copywrite laws. That’s how scientific papers are written. You can simply post the title and author and I’d love to read the paper…although I will tell you now that there would be no way for me to “authenticate” the paper, without repeating the study (barring any obvious flaws with the studies, which should have been prevented from publication by peer review anyway). I’d love if in this thread, we posted references to our claims so that we can dispel all the fear, uncertainty, and deception. Like I said, anybody can say anything on the internet, so it’d be great if those curious can actually read where you got your information from. Posting your source does not infringe copywrite laws, and if anything the author would love that people are reading his/her paper. > [@Brian\_F](#): > > Great post! > > Yes, there’s a reality to pheromones + the placebo portion. As a human, you get both, whether you like it or not. > > It may be more accurate to say pheromones (or at least pheromone research) is complicated by the distortions the human mind makes. For the typical pheromone user that just wants a better life, it can actually be enhanced by the same distortions. As it is your case, and for many people. Makes R&D crazy hard, though. > > It all reminds me of an old joke my parents tell about how their car seems to work faster after a car wash. Feels faster to them, even though it’s not. It wouldn’t objectively dyno any faster. > > Yet even though the “car wash placebo” is obviously false, the car still exists. It still works as car, regardless of how their mind magnifies or alters their perception of it. > > Of course, then quantum mechanics comes along and messes all of this up. In quantum physics, maybe a car wash would make a washed car dyno faster, haha. Those guys like to break the rules of everything! I watched “Einstein’s Nightmare” episode of “Secrets of Quantum Physics” last week. > > [https://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Nightmare/](https://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Nightmare/) > > Quantum physics is always a mind blow. Can make you question every little thing. Some interesting bits from quantum biology, too, and the scent vibration model. Minored in physics, loved quantum mechanics. This is a great book if you’re ever wanted to pursue the quantitative understanding of it: > **[Principles of Quantum Mechanics, 2nd Edition: Shankar, R.: 9780306447907:...](https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Quantum-Mechanics-2nd-Shankar/dp/0306447908)** > > Buy Principles of Quantum Mechanics, 2nd Edition on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/12 "2016-12-25T20:20:01Z")
Ms. Murray defended her thesis in 2013. The findings contradict 40 years of prior work. The faculty accepted it with no known dissent. [Lab - S Craig Roberts](http://www.scraigroberts.com/lab.html) Obtaining quotes requires time and effort. If we are unwillingly to search fearlessly for the truth about pheromones, my participation on this board ends after the holidays with a formal and public request to delete my account. > [@](#): > > Since the first pheromone cologne was introduced in 1981, nothing changed all that much. > Not until Michael Harris became interested in what these molecules _actually_ do, despite > all the often false marketing claims and wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/13 "2016-12-25T20:21:53Z")
Ms. Murray defended her thesis in 2013. The findings contradict 40 years of prior work. The faculty accepted it with no known dissent. [Lab - S Craig Roberts](http://www.scraigroberts.com/lab.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jdub](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jdub/32/1399_2.png) [@Jdub](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Jdub)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/14 "2016-12-26T00:26:18Z")
> [@monesmadedoit](#): > > Can you **prove** your panty droppers perform better > than AMMO in blind tests? > > Not talk. Prove. > > Many studies are copyrighted material. I never knowingly post > any scientific claim unless I have the quotes on file. > > I can back every word I said. Can you? > > FYI Brian has the quotes. You cannot prove anything in science. Furthermore, my comment was an assertion to the possibility of mones being completely placebo and if so.. I’m comfortable with that as long as I get the results I seek. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/15 "2016-12-26T00:46:28Z")
**This is my formal request to Brian F to please delete my PheroTalk account.** > [@](#): > > This message is hidden because **Jdub** is on your ignore list ---
**Author:** ![Conjurator](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/conjurator/32/410_2.png) [@Conjurator](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Conjurator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-just-placebo-answered-by-mit-scientist/66779/16 "2016-12-26T15:18:50Z")
I solemnly vow to knock the lights out of anyone who shall try and take my placebos away from me 😃! They’re that good! You should try.