# Are pheromones unethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Pheromone Theory & Molecules\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374 "2009-08-07T02:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/81 "2009-08-12T02:30:25Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > Would like to, but don’t remember the name. It was a pill originally designed as a “tanning pill” but people noticed an “interesting effect” in that it not only acted like Viagra, but also made people _want_ to have sex, e. g. made them horny. It was actually studied and past the FDA as an aphrodisiac. The first and only FDA approved one. I think I remember where I read about it and will look it up. Is this it? [http://www.palatin.com/pdfs/bremelanotide.pdf](http://www.palatin.com/pdfs/bremelanotide.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![phantom777](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/phantom777/32/1865_2.png) [@phantom777](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/phantom777)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/82 "2009-08-12T03:42:00Z")
this all seems like a waste of our time 🙂…you obviously are useing the pheros why would you want to know if its ethical or not? obviously your opinion is ok with them since your using them?if your so concerend with ethics stop using them yourself? this forum is here to help eachother not get into a debate on if its ok or not to use them.just seems like your trying to start a big fuss just to get some attention.WASTE OF TIME! get on with your life live it the way you feel is right and stop judging others already and start a real helpfull thread on this forum.🙂 no hate here! just some advice 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/83 "2009-08-12T17:17:16Z")
> [@MHarris](#): > > Oh, is there one now beyond 141 now? That’s exciting! Shoot me over a link. > > PT-141 had a different original purpose, as well. I don’t know the inside story of that one, but I know it’s original purpose was different. Cool heads (and libidos) developed it, while hot heads and libidos don’t tend to advance much. > [@Fetus\_Farm](#): > > Are you sure you’re not confused? The link you posted says PT-141 was originally meant to be a tanning aid. If not, I’d like to know what the other drug is too. > [@Carrie](#): > > Is this it? > > [http://www.palatin.com/pdfs/bremelanotide.pdf](http://www.palatin.com/pdfs/bremelanotide.pdf) Turns out I had posted about PT-141 (Bremelanotide) and was told that it was a dead product. seems it’s back, see [my post](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/aphrodisiac/31506) on it. Started out as a tanning pill but testers reported “interesting” effects. I hadn’t remembered the name so I went back and checked the original article I had read. ---
**Author:** ![Fetus\_Farm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@Fetus\_Farm](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Fetus_Farm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/84 "2009-08-12T18:01:11Z")
> [@asianmone](#): > > I would like to revert back to this point that Kitsune raised and hear others’ thoughts. Would the overuse of pheromones hurt our body’s ability to naturally produce our own? I can’t find any information on this. I don’t think it’s documented. I would speculate that it’s possible. Pheromones are known to be neurally and hormonally regulated. Further, the anecdotal evidence I’ve seen from posters on this forum that you can “overdose” with pheromones gives me cause to speculate that there could indeed be some sort of negative feedback loop that suppresses normal pheromone production in response to high exposure. (To avoid confusion, I’m using the term “negative feedback loop” to mean a system in which the output inhibits further output.) Keep in mind that different negative feedback loops behave differently with respect to permanence. With some, restoration of natural activity levels happens very quickly upon removal of the external source of whatever chemical you’re supplementing. With others, it takes a while or doesn’t come back at all. Conversely, one could speculate that regulation of pheromones operates by positive feedback loops (where the output promotes further output instead of inhibiting it.) For example, if another male is producing a lot of sexually attractive pheromones, wouldn’t it be adaptive for an organism to ramp up its own in order to better compete for a mate? Again, this is all purely speculative. If anyone has real info, I’d love to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Wrlprchnx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wrlprchnx/32/1360_2.png) [@Wrlprchnx](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wrlprchnx)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/85 "2009-08-12T21:00:54Z")
First off - I’d like to say that the discussion of the ethics of using pheromones is far from a “useless” conversation. ## If it were a useless conversation we wouldn’t see it being brought up again and again - when anyone has a rationally based concern on the ethics of anything the discussion is worthwhile. Actually, I think discussions like these are ESSENTIAL in the pheromone community because there are concerns and open discussion of those concerns proves that the community is not simply trying to hide unethical behaviour. Now to the actual discussion and my opinion: First and foremost I believe that pheromones themselves are neither ethical nor unethical - just like a knife they are tools and a tool cannot be an ethical being. (Even nuclear bombs can be used in ethical ways à la Armageddon) Here is the sticky thing with pheromones - you cannot consciously discount their effect because you cannot consciously account for those effects. A girl knows that suits make her drip but who also knows that she would not be happy having sex with every guy who walks by in a suit will consciously deduct some of the suits effect on her conscious decisions. She doesn’t have that option with pheromones. Similarly someone may consciously choose to deduct or add motivation to his/her decision to hire someone on the basis of their personal hygiene. They do not have the option to discount the effects of whatever [synthetic pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) that person is wearing because they (for the most part) cannot be consciously aware that those effects are present (unless the person wearing pheromones tells them that they are wearing pheromones). As far as not being able to consciously deduct the effects of our natural pheromone production - it’s true but we aren’t having a discussion on the ethics of some people having genetic advantages over other people or a discussion on the ethics of the effects of personal hygiene on others. I think the real concern here is extent - We all know that putting AMMO on doesn’t make any girl we walk into our sex slave, but we also know that it does have a measurable influence on the feelings of sexuality that girls have towards it wearer - potentially enough to take a guy from friend-zone to fuck-zone. Obviously, in my mind the discussion is on whether the use of pheromones to influence the decisions of others is ethical and I think to some degree that has to do with extent and intent. ## On that subject my opinion is that as long as they are being used in such a way that the user is not trying to directly subvert the interests of their target or overwhelm their targets decision process than their use is ethical. EXAMPLES Example of unethical INTENT: - If you use pheromones for the purpose of having sex with your girlfriend before she wants to have sex (in FF’s case) than your pheromone use is unethical (EVEN IF YOU WERE UNSUCCESSFUL!) (If you were using them to improve your relationship and you ended up having sex I would argue your use was ethical, even if she regretted having sex later - See my thoughts on EXTENT below) Example of unethical EXTENT: - The use of a mix that would consistently cause women to make decisions that once no longer under the effect of the mix they deeply regretted. (NOTE THAT THIS IS A TOUGH ONE - I don’t personally see pheromones as having sufficient EXTENT at this moment - You see PUA methods which allow men to use physiological tricks to fake deep emotional connections with women… I believe these methods have a far greater capacity for unethical EXTENT than pheromones. Faking an emotional connection to sleep with someone is also an example of unethical INTENT EXAMPLE OF UNETHICAL INTENT AND EXTENT The use of date rape drugs to rape women is almost certainly not in their interests and is therefore unethical in intent - it also completely denies her of the ability to deny your advance and is therefore unethical in extent. Drugging and having sex with your girlfriend AT HER SPECIFIC REQUEST is probably not (an exception is if she had a mental health issue that was the cause of her request) because she has the ability to decide to back out at last minute (before she drinks the drugged drink, and if done properly she should probably have the ability to stop the roleplay with a safeword) and it is in her interest (lets say she has a sexual fantasy or wants to know what it feels like so she can know if it ever happens to her) I got a little lost there… hopefully my point came across as clearly as I had hoped ---
**Author:** ![Fetus\_Farm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@Fetus\_Farm](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Fetus_Farm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/86 "2009-08-12T21:37:03Z")
> [@Wrlprchnx](#): > > First off - I’d like to say that the discussion of the ethics of using pheromones is far from a “useless” conversation. > > ## If it were a useless conversation we wouldn’t see it being brought up again and again - when anyone has a rationally based concern on the ethics of anything the discussion is worthwhile. Actually, I think discussions like these are ESSENTIAL in the pheromone community because there are concerns and open discussion of those concerns proves that the community is not simply trying to hide unethical behaviour. > > Now to the actual discussion and my opinion: > > First and foremost I believe that pheromones themselves are neither ethical nor unethical - just like a knife they are tools and a tool cannot be an ethical being. (Even nuclear bombs can be used in ethical ways à la Armageddon) > > Here is the sticky thing with pheromones - you cannot consciously discount their effect because you cannot consciously account for those effects. A girl knows that suits make her drip but who also knows that she would not be happy having sex with every guy who walks by in a suit will consciously deduct some of the suits effect on her conscious decisions. She doesn’t have that option with pheromones. > > Similarly someone may consciously choose to deduct or add motivation to his/her decision to hire someone on the basis of their personal hygiene. They do not have the option to discount the effects of whatever synthetic pheromones that person is wearing because they (for the most part) cannot be consciously aware that those effects are present (unless the person wearing pheromones tells them that they are wearing pheromones). > > As far as not being able to consciously deduct the effects of our natural pheromone production - it’s true but we aren’t having a discussion on the ethics of some people having genetic advantages over other people or a discussion on the ethics of the effects of personal hygiene on others. > > I think the real concern here is extent - We all know that putting AMMO on doesn’t make any girl we walk into our sex slave, but we also know that it does have a measurable influence on the feelings of sexuality that girls have towards it wearer - potentially enough to take a guy from friend-zone to fuck-zone. > > Obviously, in my mind the discussion is on whether the use of pheromones to influence the decisions of others is ethical and I think to some degree that has to do with extent and intent. > > ## On that subject my opinion is that as long as they are being used in such a way that the user is not trying to directly subvert the interests of their target or overwhelm their targets decision process than their use is ethical. > > EXAMPLES > > Example of unethical INTENT: > > - If you use pheromones for the purpose of having sex with your girlfriend before she wants to have sex (in FF’s case) than your pheromone use is unethical (EVEN IF YOU WERE UNSUCCESSFUL!) > (If you were using them to improve your relationship and you ended up having sex I would argue your use was ethical, even if she regretted having sex later - See my thoughts on EXTENT below) > > Example of unethical EXTENT: > > - The use of a mix that would consistently cause women to make decisions that once no longer under the effect of the mix they deeply regretted. (NOTE THAT THIS IS A TOUGH ONE - I don’t personally see pheromones as having sufficient EXTENT at this moment - You see PUA methods which allow men to use physiological tricks to fake deep emotional connections with women… I believe these methods have a far greater capacity for unethical EXTENT than pheromones. Faking an emotional connection to sleep with someone is also an example of unethical INTENT > > EXAMPLE OF UNETHICAL INTENT AND EXTENT > > The use of date rape drugs to rape women is almost certainly not in their interests and is therefore unethical in intent - it also completely denies her of the ability to deny your advance and is therefore unethical in extent. > > Drugging and having sex with your girlfriend AT HER SPECIFIC REQUEST is probably not (an exception is if she had a mental health issue that was the cause of her request) because she has the ability to decide to back out at last minute (before she drinks the drugged drink, and if done properly she should probably have the ability to stop the roleplay with a safeword) and it is in her interest (lets say she has a sexual fantasy or wants to know what it feels like so she can know if it ever happens to her) > > I got a little lost there… hopefully my point came across as clearly as I had hoped I agree that it’s mostly a question of intent. Concerning extent, that’s kind of hard to quantify and will probably remain so until someone produces some excellent research. I think we can only discuss it theoretically, i.e. _if_ pheromones do have effect X, then action Y is questionable. But then, we’re presumably all here because we’re at least willing to seriously consider that they have those types of effects. The way I think of it, the process of making decisions is cumulative and based on an infinite number of contributing factors. Some are large and some are small. I’m not sure it’s appropriate to assume that the severity of the effect has any part in determining whether it’s ethical to use or not. Theoretically, a person’s threshold just needs to be lowered enough to facilitate the act in question. Whether the final push to the tipping point is a large or small effect doesn’t matter as long as the threshold hits that point. Also, lots of respect for speaking your mind when your thoughts are bound to be pretty wildly unpopular with the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Wrlprchnx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wrlprchnx/32/1360_2.png) [@Wrlprchnx](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wrlprchnx)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/87 "2009-08-12T21:48:24Z")
> [@Fetus\_Farm](#): > > I agree that it’s mostly a question of intent. > > Concerning extent, that’s kind of hard to quantify and will probably remain so until someone produces some excellent research. I think we can only discuss it theoretically, i.e. _if_ pheromones do have effect X, then action Y is questionable. But then, we’re presumably all here because we’re at least willing to seriously consider that they have those types of effects. > > The way I think of it, the process of making decisions is cumulative and based on an infinite number of contributing factors. Some are large and some are small. I’m not sure it’s appropriate to assume that the severity of the effect has any part in determining whether it’s ethical to use or not. Theoretically, a person’s threshold just needs to be lowered enough to facilitate the act in question. Whether the final push to the tipping point is a large or small effect doesn’t matter as long as the threshold hits that point. > > Also, lots of respect for speaking your mind when your thoughts are bound to be pretty wildly unpopular with the masses. I am convinced that pheromones have some effect - but as far as the question on extent goes my belief is that there is a hard line somewhere between has no effect at all and completely subverts free will. In my opinion if a [pheromone technology](https://pheromonelabs.com/) ever comes out that can consistently cause people to make decisions in that those people then regret once released from that pheromones effects - The use of that pheromone technology to cause those decisions to be made would be unethical in EXTENT. I just simply don’t believe that there are ANY pheromone technologies out there that have that degree of influence. I hope the technology never does get to that point (because I like my pheromones and I don’t want to lose the use of all pheromones because some guy discovers the “Insta You Couldn’t Resist Me Even If You Wanted To” Mix and the Feds ban all phero use) On that note - If I ever did find a mix that seemed to allow myself and anyone I gave it to to sleep with anyone with little to no game at all I would neither publish NOR use that mix - A crutch like that would be dangerously perilous to my continuous personal development ---
**Author:** ![Wrlprchnx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wrlprchnx/32/1360_2.png) [@Wrlprchnx](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wrlprchnx)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/88 "2009-08-12T22:16:10Z")
Hrmm I’ve been a bit imprecise - It is not always unethical to use the “You can’t resist me mix” Ethical INTENT outweights EXTENT - However, I still personally wouldn’t use that type of mix simply because **Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely** The user of an influencing technology which is powerful enough to have unethical extent issues needs to not only be concerned with both their own intentions AND with the opinion/belief (terribly wrong words here) of the person they are influencing Essentially if you use a product that is able to influence a person sufficiently to pass the hardline you can no longer only be concerned with your intentions, but you need to ensure that your target will not have regrets ---
**Author:** ![Fetus\_Farm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@Fetus\_Farm](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Fetus_Farm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/89 "2009-08-12T22:22:04Z")
> [@Wrlprchnx](#): > > Hrmm I’ve been a bit imprecise - It is not always unethical to use the “You can’t resist me mix” > > Ethical INTENT outweights EXTENT - However, I still personally wouldn’t use that type of mix simply because **Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely** > > The user of an influencing technology which is powerful enough to have unethical extent issues needs to not only be concerned with both their own intentions AND with the opinion/belief (terribly wrong words here) of the person they are influencing > > Essentially if you use a product that is able to influence a person sufficiently to pass the hardline you can no longer only be concerned with your intentions, but you need to ensure that your target will not have regrets How would you define such a hard line? A statistically signifficant difference from a control? 100% effectiveness? ---
**Author:** ![Wrlprchnx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wrlprchnx/32/1360_2.png) [@Wrlprchnx](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wrlprchnx)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/90 "2009-08-13T13:11:59Z")
Statistically significant - but with a very low p value essentially near 100% effectiveness but allowing for the outliers ---
**Author:** ![sigil.tech](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/sigil.tech/32/2357_2.png) [@sigil.tech](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/sigil.tech)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/91 "2009-08-28T05:43:49Z")
It is highly unethical. However, you can save your eternal soul by sending me $10 each time you feel a pang of guilt when you realize these things are working. Seriously… These are no different than any other insane thing humans do to influence others. Its your secret weapon, but its not as if you are spiking their coffee with heroine. You are influencing other humans all the time, and this is merely an edge. You are not removing their free will. If you can manage to get the cannon fodder to follow you around like the Pied Piper with these things, I will be happy to buy you dinner while you explain how you made it happen. Suppose you have a pretty girl who is attracted to sports cars, and you have one. You influenced her by simply having an object which she finds desirable, but you didn’t tie her up with duct tape and throw her in the trunk. If she chooses to get in the car with you, its her choice. The game of influence is incredibly real, viable, and ongoing throughout the human experience of life. constantly. We do it in nearly everything we do, from body language, to tone of voice, to how we treat those which we wish to bring closer to us and those we wish to repel. Mones are simply another tool, like flowers you might bring on a date or a screwdriver you might use to fix a toilet. I think this is more of a question about sincerity of intent rather than ethics, but I understand where you are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![phantom777](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/phantom777/32/1865_2.png) [@phantom777](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/phantom777)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/92 "2009-08-31T03:10:46Z")
i have to agree with you whole heartedly,ive been using pheros and they havnt made women jump in my lap or do any crazy stuff. they ,like you said are just a tool. so far pheros havnt made too much of a difference in my love life at all,im still single and looking, but the influence pheros have had on other people especialy women have been minor compared to all the internet claims of what they do and how they drive women crazy LOL. i just havnnt seen any results or proof like that no matter wich phero ive used. the best thing they have done is add some confidence to myself and maybe relax the ladies a bit. my ultimate goal with pheros when i first started them is just not a reality for me anymore, they are not a magnet to women. they do help but ethicaly you realy do have to change yourself for them to be realy affective. just putting them on and walking around and waiting for something to happen isnt gonna do anything from my experience. its all up to the person using them to make an impression ,its like adding a little to yourself thats all nothing more. people wear jewelry to attract women ,buy cars etc.. its just like that a helper,nothing wrong with upping the game. im sure a women would be real hapy with a guy if the 2 people clicked .i would love for a women to smell good for me and dress nice wouldnt you all? its al about finding the right one for me and i dont feel the least bit dishonest using them. 🙂 hey, if a woman is using them also to attract me and it makes me feel good then great!i would want a women im attracted to to be the dream girl im looking for, im sure everyone would agree that its aok to use pheros even on themselves thats what we are doing when we put them on anyway?. just my thoughts 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Triumphant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Triumphant](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Triumphant)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/93 "2009-08-31T14:03:51Z")
I look at it this way: Men who are tall and have full heads of hair do disproportionately well in both the business and dating worlds. These men have an advantage that was given to them by genetics and luck. People who have high levels of seratonin tend to be extroverted and motivated, and tend to do very well in all areas of life. Again, genetics and luck. None of these advantages are earned. If using 'mones gives a person an advantage, it’s no different. ---
**Author:** ![pur3skillz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pur3skillz](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/pur3skillz)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/94 "2009-09-28T06:10:19Z")
Pick a color, red or blue. If you believe pheromones is unethical/ethical. Then, you think getting a chick in bed through some alcohol is unethical/ethical. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_It\_Up\_Chris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/34f0e0/32.png) [@Warm\_It\_Up\_Chris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Warm_It_Up_Chris)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/95 "2009-09-28T06:52:39Z")
> [@Fetus\_Farm](#): > > I’m not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I’m interested in hearing what others think: Assuming that pheromones do indeed influence human behavior, what delineates ethical and unethical use? > > It’s somewhat of a grey area to me. On one hand, it’s not very nice to chemically induce someone to sleep with you if they normally wouldn’t do that. On the other hand, how is it ethically different from wearing an expensive suit, having plastic surgery, working out a lot, driving an expensive car or anything else that qualifies as “investment in appearance?” Arguably, all of those things increase one’s mating success. But then, so does getting someone drunk and slipping them a rohypnol, and I don’t think anyone would argue that that’s an ethical act. > > Also, given what I know about physiology, it seems logical to assume that people excrete pheromones to greatly varying degrees and that some could be thought of as, “pheromone deficient.” Even if you believe it’s wrong to use a performance-enhancing substance or procedure–whether it be anabolic steroids, elective surgery, use of ritalin in college or pheromones–is it still wrong to use them if you’re correcting a deficiency? > > In my opinion, there’s no easy answer to any of those questions. All I can say with conviction is that I think it’s unethical to use pheromones to persuade someone to do something that is clearly to their detriment or that they would normally be morally opposed to doing. For example, the girl I’m interested in would clearly not normally be open to sleeping with someone within the first few months of dating. Therefore, should I have an opportunity, I’d feel wrong about taking it. > > On the other hand, if I was frequenting clubs and bars and interacting with women who are open to one night stands, then I probably wouldn’t feel wrong about anything that happened, even if they might not normally go home with me without pheromone use. (Although then again, how can you really ever tell what’s in someone else’s mind?) > > Use of pheromones in business presents a similar quandry. Is it ethical to use them to persuade someone to make a decision they might not normally make that results in your own monetary gain? What if you were born ugly or have an irritating voice or are otherwise deficient, and need pheromones to be on equal footing with people who are naturally more attractive and charismatic? > > Thoughts? Interesting discussion topic! I have to say that I do not find the use of pheromones to be unethical, even if as in your hypothetical they result in the tipping point resulting in sex or a positive business outcome. First off I think your hypothetical is a little extreme, but just for the sake of argument lets say pheromone use can result in having sex with someone who would not have done so without them. The human body produces pheromones, and likely there are those who produce them at levels that would result in the same type of positive outcomes. For one who is not lucky enough to get that sort of advantage naturally, but gain the advantage through the use of [synthetic pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) are merely using science to compensate for such disadvantages or lack of advantage. I think alcohol use is different.Alcohol lowers inhibition and effects judgement. Typically, however, one is not force feeding another person alcohol and the user is generally going to be aware of the effects that are self induced by continuing to drink. That being said, I would not feel comfortable engaging in sex with somebody who is plastered the same way I would not feel comfortable engaging in a business transaction with them. Pheromones influence behavior, but again, if I had been lucky enough to naturally produce the type of pheromones that would influence behaviors resulting in the same level of positive outcomes, should I question my own ethics because of the influence that my natural scents have produced? ---
**Author:** ![Domnk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/domnk/32/2269_2.png) [@Domnk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Domnk)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/96 "2009-09-28T07:46:44Z")
> [@pur3skillz](#): > > Pick a color, red or blue. > > If you believe pheromones is unethical/ethical. Then, you think getting a chick in bed through some alcohol is unethical/ethical. Umm, I’m going to be honest here, that explanation is extremely lax, reductionistic, and deprived of any real indication that true contemplation of either morals or logic was utilized. Seeing as how ethics is based largely on those two factors, the statement really should have never been included in the conversation, but I’ll admit, it was your call, not mine. The fact of the matter is, that the reason why we can’t just breeze through a discussion on the ethical implications of pheromones, is because the foundation of ethics is a fundamental part of individual human thought processes, and as we all know, the human element is variable. One of the interesting things about the human element, is that the logic is not a constant between each individual, i.e., we all operate on logic which is uniquely individual. Logic can drive us to completely disvalue morals, or be a force of momentum when it comes to individual embrace, also in regards to morals. And as for morals, it is also a very personal issue, and even more of an emotional one, and many factors dictate what moral upbringing, either it be dependent on self, family, or any other number of other factors or combination, is instilled in an individual. Interestingly enough, those are just two basic concepts\factors, and to say that a person is equal or less to those simplex examples, is absurd. See were I’m going with this? Variables and ambiguity, that is what essentially what we run into, every time, when we try and set up a foundation of universal subject, in a system based upon complex dependent intricacy. That’s not to say I’m against ethics, but I do see it more as social experimentation, seeing as how we have yet to truly understand our own nature, and implying a system to govern an unknown, is.. well, an experiment, in my book. 🙄 But then again, I’m very idealistic, and operate on very Buddhist terms, so yes I’m biased, but hey, that’s the point. 😉 Dominick ---
**Author:** ![Wrlprchnx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wrlprchnx/32/1360_2.png) [@Wrlprchnx](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wrlprchnx)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/97 "2009-09-28T14:18:06Z")
> [@pur3skillz](#): > > Pick a color, red or blue. > > If you believe pheromones is unethical/ethical. Then, you think getting a chick in bed through some alcohol is unethical/ethical. Getting some chick drunk for the purpose of tricking her into bed IS unethical in my opinion. Similarly, tricking anyone into bed for any reason other than mutual pleasure is similarly unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Denerath](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/denerath/32/1331_2.png) [@Denerath](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Denerath)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/98 "2009-09-29T16:08:58Z")
I’m going to throw in my $0.02. Pheromones are a ‘proximate’ cause, rather than an ultimate cause. They don’t explain ‘why’, they’re just one of the many ‘maybe’s’. They’re alongside our genes, brain mechanisms, and environmental stimuli. If it’s a resource that’s available to anybody, much like a good hairstylist, or expensive make-up, it’s not unethical to use. Presumably, pheromones affect the VO in the nose and go directly to the brain, with no conscious decisions in between. But so do many other traits. When men see red lips on a woman, it’s registered by the brain as an association with the engorged lips of the labia; possibly an evolutionary throwback to our ancestors that openly showed ovulation. When we smell a familiar and happy scent from our childhood in a cologne, it automatically makes us happy, which associates that person with happy – there may be no concious connection in between on why we actually like them. It’s been hypothesized that blond hair is found attractive by many because it sort of ‘highlights’ the face. Blonds have been found to be attracted to blonds, in order to pass on the genes. If someone dyes their hair, is it unethical too, since they are lying about which genes they possess? As pheromones could also be sending false cues about which genes you possess. Anything that we find attractive is just a throwback to our evolutionary need to pass on the most successful genes, and pheromones are just one of the many tools in our arsenal. One could even argue that rape is a tool to increase our chances of reproductive success, when in competition for a limited resource (fertile women). The big difference here is the infringement on someone else’s liberty of making the choice for their mate, since women invest a lot more into pregnancy and child rearing than men. If there are two women alongside one another, and one has augmented her breasts, men may gravitate towards her because she signals the ability to nurse a child, although we know that ability is not dependent on breast size. Is breast augmentation unethical too, then? If there are two women alongside one another, and one is wearing pheromones that may signal she’s fertile when she’s not, it’s the same concept. Men may gravitate slightly towards her, but if she has a worse personality, character, and looks, no amount of pheromone will help her. Ultimately, I think our perception of the cues of what we want in a mate has become muddled, and pheromones, hair dye, make-up, and cosmetic surgery is fair game in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![ostrichllama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@ostrichllama](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ostrichllama)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/99 "2009-11-27T20:28:31Z")
Fetus, this is same thing I have been thinking about. Truth is, most people aren’t very ethical, and would get a girl drunk to sleep with her. Others would not. One thing is for sure: I act differently when I know I have them on, much more Alpha, so to speak. I’ve been doing and saying things I would not normally dare to, and women respond to that. ---
**Author:** ![Olfact\_Amorous](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/olfact_amorous/32/434_2.png) [@Olfact\_Amorous](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Olfact_Amorous)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374/100 "2009-12-06T07:08:58Z")
It seems that the only thing that can be unethical is the individual and not the mones themselves. I take pride in being more of a straight arrow but that doesn’t make me better than anyone else. My family has always taught me to treat others like how i want to be treated. To manipulate to connive to conspire I think are unethical things at least in certain context but to me pheromones are free game. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374.md?page=4) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/are-pheromones-unethical/31374.md?page=6)