# Department store fragrances in pheromones **URL:** \ **Category:** Pheromone Theory & Molecules\ **Created:** [October 17, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34 "2005-10-17T08:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/1 "2005-10-17T08:48:24Z")
I know that amongst the experimenters that everyone’s Nirvana is “unscented”. You can’t actually do this with all [pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/), you have to denature some for legal reasons, so consumers know that they’re not drinkable. I know, I know, who’d drink pheromones? But hey, people drink mouthwash every day, and it’s a legal necessity. Now, we work with some large fragrance companies, one of which is the largest creator of fragrances in the world. There’s no way that each and everyone one of you hasn’t smelled their products on other people, or in scented products you found around your house. They’re ubiqituous. They’re everywhere. Well, just like we have more pheromone technology than most… they have more scent technology than most. What their scent technology also has is more DIFFUSIVE technology than most. That is, the ability to really PROJECT scent. To get the fragrance molecules out there. Now, what I’ve noticed is, when I’ve made mixes with their fragrance packages, they seem work a heck of a letter better and produce much more OBVIOUS results than unscented. They even work better than the diffusive tricks I’ve developed through research and Edison-like trial and error (testing literally hundreds and hundreds of oils and fragrance components over time). I’ve found a small handful, not a few fingers full, of chemicals and essential oils that really and truly project. What our fragrance supplier has, though, is hundreds of formulators who’ve worked over the years to develop the best possible diffusive technology. They have me beat by a mile. One of the drums of scent we have from isn’t even “top of the line”, per se, but it still kicks the ass diffusion wise of anything else I’ve seen in the pheromone industry. What do you guys think? One fragrance package I have is this sort of very acceptable citrus scent, acceptable to both men and women. It’s more likable than lovable, but that’s part of what makes it not hatable. It doesn’t disagree with many people. Haven’t heard one bad comment yet, and even a few compliments, even though I personally think it’s only happily “acceptable”. I’ve been toying around with the idea of a scented experimone kit to offer alongside the unscented, or the one with the proper essential oils added. If they ALL contain the exact same amount of the citrus type fragrance, then everything in the kit would work together… no clashes. The only thing it might clash with is other fragrances. Beyond that, I think it would be an exciting and useful products for those people who like to see obvious results. Feedback please. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@Futurist](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Futurist)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/2 "2005-10-17T12:23:51Z")
Diffusion is as important as what you wearing, in fact, maybe more. I’ve tried to get my head wrapped around this issue as well, while also working to control conversion. The methods sometimes counteract one another. There’s a definite diffusion issue with using some oils, natural colognes. I’ve been using the orange and the brock cologne to test and have found that does a better job with the diffusion. Is one of these what you are referring to? As far as a fragranced kit, it might be easier to just add the diffusion cologne with it that people can shoot on as a cover. I don’t think it saves much time to have them in the actual test series, does it? ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/3 "2005-10-17T12:56:27Z")
> [@Futurist](#): > > Diffusion is as important as what you wearing, in fact, maybe more. > > I’ve tried to get my head wrapped around this issue as well, while also working to control conversion. The methods sometimes counteract one another. > > There’s a definite diffusion issue with using some oils, natural colognes. I’ve been using the orange and the brock cologne to test and have found that does a better job with the diffusion. Is one of these what you are referring to? > > As far as a fragranced kit, it might be easier to just add the diffusion cologne with it that people can shoot on as a cover. I don’t think it saves much time to have them in the actual test series, does it? Those are the two. Brock has actually been repurposed now for a different project. Your “Brock” may have been modified by me, before I knew better. Having them IN the test series actually helps, yes. I do not get the same effects with spray over as I do combining them. Therein lies the rub. I was [Come Talk To Me](https://a314.com/product/come-talk-to-me-cttm/) v2 for awhile, for instance. It was good, and I often covered with cologne. Then I used a single 20mcg spray of CTTM2 that had the orange scent mixed in. Sprayed it on my left wrist. Expected very little to occur, as a small amount of nols usually doesn’t do much. Went to the grocery store. Had hits I couldn’t believe, especially from teenage girls. If this one girl’s father didn’t keep giving me dirty looks as his princess DIHL’ed everywhere, wondering what was wrong with his daughter, I swear I would’ve been breaking age of consent laws. (just kidding - she looked 18, I swear! 😉) This was interesting, too, because the previous day, same store, had massive ‘hits’ for a masculine formula I was testing but with much older women. I like easy contrast like that. Two completely different social “vibes” and results, one day after the other. I was the exact same person, but with the power of pheromones, I felt like two different people because of that. Fun stuff. … Mind you, I don’t believe in “hits” much, because I think focusing on them too much demasculinizes men and generally gives them the wrong idea… but that doesn’t mean they don’t happen! It’s an interesting phenomenon to observe, but it’s more interesting to accidentally bump into it than “look for it”. I’m probably more inclinded TO get hits than the average pheromone wearing male, because I’m 80%-90% oblivious, and only partially aware. I think that “light awareness” is superior to active searching, which either leads to preprogramming results/placebo effect, or, worse, setting yourself up for failure by giving off physical cues (including microexpressions) of a … of a… of a, well, a supplicant wanker! Supplicant “wankerism” works strongly against the pheromones, I do believe. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Futurist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@Futurist](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Futurist)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/4 "2005-10-17T13:08:42Z")
Okay, I get it, you don’t like passive observing 🙂 Regarding MIXED vs. spraying on top, what if you spray the fragrance into a table spoon and then add your test mones into that table spoon to “premix”. I even let the alcohol evaporate, though i don’t stir up the end result, which often includes the oils from the cologne seperating into it’s own little ring. But just wondering if we premix, will that do the trick? ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/5 "2005-10-17T13:17:45Z")
> [@Futurist](#): > > Okay, I get it, you don’t like passive observing 🙂 > > Regarding MIXED vs. spraying on top, what if you spray the fragrance into a table spoon and then add your test mones into that table spoon to “premix”. I even let the alcohol evaporate, though i don’t stir up the end result, which often includes the oils from the cologne seperating into it’s own little ring. > > But just wondering if we premix, will that do the trick? Hahaha. No, I don’t like active observing!! (not for this) I like being active, being normal, and passively observing. But I think your smile means you know that. 🙂 I don’t think the spoon trick will work. When you take concentrated fragrance oils, and first mix them with alcohol, they don’t even smell right. It takes a least a minute IN ADDITION to the time it takes to do a rough shaking, for it to smell even half right. You get the full effect in about a day, and if you try to speed it up with a vibrating hot plate you can really screw it up. With essential oils, it’s even worse. It can weeks upon weeks for those to mature. I can’t even begin to imagine the hell that Pheros was to create. That man deserves a gold medal. The problem is, the molecules actually bond, fixing to other molecules, and it’s NOT instant. Using the latest [pheromone](https://pheromonelabs.com/) technology + the latest cologne/fragrance technology from the world’s most advanced fragrance lab (that has all of its own hard earned secrets) actually has a benefit to it that I sort of wish it _didn’t_. It doesn’t make product design decisions easy at all. There’s flexibility, and there’s results. A 10mcg dosage applied raw vs. a 10mcg dosage with the same diffusion characteristics of a department store fragrance is a different tiger all together. Fragrance labs have diffusion nailed down. Their secret tech really blows out your pherocloud on a whole new level. I have no idea how many years it would take me rediscover about diffusion those things which they already know, and keep under wraps. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@Futurist](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Futurist)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/6 "2005-10-17T13:25:10Z")
Well, I can only give you my take on it, but as as user I’ve found diffusion to be the most important thing. It’s all about getting the molecules into people’s noses. That’s why one can get such great hits after initially applying, as the alcohol is all evaporating, as Jasmin once pointed out. I think users would give up flexibility with regard to scent in order to get a better working product. I’d just make it well known that the fragrance molecules bond to the [pheromone molecules](https://pheromonelabs.com/) (?) and are an important part of creating a better product. I think people will understand, and even appreciate _Diffusion Technology_. The citrus scents aren’t great, they are good, as you said. They’ll never offend anyone, they cover well. Most fragrances are going to be disliked by some people. This is passable. Just go with what diffuses best and explain it to consumers. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/7 "2005-10-17T13:36:57Z")
Thanks for your thoughts. Good stuff. I appreciate it! I hesitate to call ExperiMoners consumers, though. They’re like really early adopters, or “early early adopters”, considering that pheromone tech hasn’t changed much in over 20 years. Most companies haven’t moved beyond the Jovan Andron model. Most of their “work” consists of thinking up ever newer, sleezier names for the same old, same old. It seems like the typical consumers don’t mind fragrances as much, which is why you see so many APC sales (and even glowing reviews of it in feedback left to ebay sellers, due to the scent alone). I’m definitely not worried about putting fragrances into “easy” consumer products. It’s the hardcore experimenters and enthusiasts I worry about for this issue. There’s a lot of potential to blow pheromone experimentation up with the little kits I’ve worked out… just gotta do it right. I don’t expect to sell many, but I want to get it right for the admittedly small crowd it’ll appeal to. It’s a tough crowd. It’s always your smallest crowd that demands the most from you. A marketer would ignore them, but I’m more of an adventurer than a marketer. To me, it’s the enthusiasts that provide the real research base that can drive things forward… and help push pheromone science into an actual, viable technology. I love 'em. Want to do right by them and provide the best tools possible. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@Futurist](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Futurist)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/8 "2005-10-17T13:43:00Z")
I hear you. And “consumers” felt a little wrong when I wrote it. More like “friends” since Androtics is definitely a friend to us… On a positive, at least it would cut down experimentation with the products already out on the market. Maybe results will be better, because you’re limited to just using the test kits? ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/9 "2005-10-17T13:56:41Z")
> [@Futurist](#): > > I hear you. And “consumers” felt a little wrong when I wrote it. More like “friends” since Androtics is definitely a friend to us… > > On a positive, at least it would cut down experimentation with the products already out on the market. Maybe results will be better, because you’re limited to just using the test kits? It’ll help a ton, if only because nobody ever dosed before. And, yes, diffusion is the next issue to tackle after amount. It’s part and parcel of dosing. Stopping experimentation with other products isn’t really a goal of mine. While I’m not going to go promoting them, there’s actually a couple I like. Still, I can’t say I don’t see your point. The only reason I even saw a reason to starting this company was the lack of good product, new compounds, and the complete abscence of rhyme and reason to many that do exist. Doing this was the only way to further my pheromone hobby. We’re like a car company run by racers. I couldn’t care less about some of the other products existance… but some of the marketing material does bug me. I’m sick of hearing that alcohol kills pheromones, or that X has 99.9% pure pheromones as it says right on their forged COA doctored from Sigma-Aldrich’s own… or that pheromones create instant sex slaves, and make men into women and women into men, and blahblahblahalalalala Combine that with the general feeling that pheromones are bad, and that they don’t exist (figure that duality out), and I have a tough job. All because of a big load of hucky. It’s tough to compete with complete and utter BS. You can’t one up a bunch of lies. If you do, you’re just a bigger liar. I’m surprised a bunch of these companies aren’t busted for fraud. They should (and could) be. They’ve really done a superlative job of keeping this stuff back in the dark ages. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@Futurist](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Futurist)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/10 "2005-10-17T14:13:38Z")
I once ordered a very popular as seen on tv product on TV and then like six months later received a post card saying they ran out of product. If I didn’t reply on the post card, they’d send me one when more product came in stock. Still waiting two years later… and I know more product came in (the commericals told me). Point being, people get away with whatever. The upside to the crap products is that how many re-orders do they get? Moreover, they draw the hardcore users in. Soooo many people in the hardcore crowd get drawn in by APC spam and then google for competitive buys. If it weren’t for the big boys, people like me would not have found companies like yours. Regarding diffusion, since we’re on it, I don’t understand how molecules that are light and diffuse well can carry heavy molecules that diffuse not so well. Doesn’t it just make the whole thing heavier? I’ve thought about this before, and I’ve even thought about nanohelicopter molecules believe it or not, when trying to ways to improve diffusion. Perhaps constantly applying alcohol that will evaporate would do the trick, though probably not practical. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/11 "2005-10-17T14:48:49Z")
Diffusion is strange. I don’t mean diffusion from alcohol and other carriers, that’s fairly well known. I mean diffusion from some other molecules… the diffusion modifiers. One of the better molecules I know for diffusion, is also a fixative. So it’s slowing release and expanding the range of disperal at the same time. I’ve never read a convincing argument as to why or how that works, nor have I spoken with anyone that seems know. Especially with essential oils that do this is, it may as well be attributed to “magic”. That’s the kind of answer you get! I’m almost CERTAIN that the big perfume company we work with has a lab solely dedicated to diffusion that gets much closer to the answers we want. Getting them to share or even hint at secrets, is like pulling teeth from a doorknob. i.e., it just doesn’t happen. These companies reveal nothing. If you think the pheromone industry is secretive, try the fragrance industry. You buy from them, you get a description of a few notes, a part number, and an MSDS telling you how deadly it is (or isn’t). I think the NDAs they sign must involve their children, they’re so tight lipped. On the consumer side, you get even less. You get ads with Britney Spears. ---
**Author:** ![Futurist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@Futurist](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Futurist)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/12 "2005-10-17T14:56:08Z")
Perhaps diffusion is so strange because we’re not living in a vaccum. There’s a ton of crap in the air. Certain molecules are probably better apt to handlng that, and it’s not necessarily just about molecular weight(?) One of the things I talked about with Jasmin in our initial contacts was whether long or short chained molecules affected diffusion. Clusters I guess? I’m not great on my chemistry, but I know something like H20 appears as 5H20 or 20H20 for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Aurelie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/aurelie/32/1914_2.png) [@Aurelie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Aurelie)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/13 "2005-10-17T17:07:50Z")
Alright let’s try this one more time before my week-long trip to Africa! 😛 Yes, a citrus-scented carrier with good diffusion properties gets my vote as well. Citrus is a non-obtrusive unisex scent. It just adds a little “zing” to whatever perfume the user chooses to wear. I know that I would chose this version over the unscented, lesser-diffusing version of the kit. Pheromol Factor for women seems to follow those principles. It smells like perfume, but almost as if it were striped of most of the “smelling” components. It makes it real handy to apply to the nape of my neck and behind my ears, and still allows me to spray my regular favorite perfume everywhere else. Pheros is indeed a work of art, but I noticed it was lacking a bit as far as diffusion went. Other than that, what do you think of this: Little bottles of EO mixes based on aromatherapy principles. Things like: - Relax - Invigorate - Sexy - Synergy to complement the goals we are trying to achieve with the pheromones? So are you saying that for optimal results with the raw pheromones I already have, I should? - Spray some of my favorite perfume in a little vial - Add the pheromones - Wait a day - Use Should we avoid overspraying a product with our own perfume? Maybe apply right next to it? The way I think of us is as “Members of a secret club”. Not that [pheromone research](https://pheromonelabs.com/) should remain a secret, to the contrary. But most of us don’t go around advertising that we are wearing them. Isn’t that kinda fun? Members of an underground research club? ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 11:41am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/14 "2005-10-18T11:41:54Z")
> [@Futurist](#): > > Perhaps diffusion is so strange because we’re not living in a vaccum. There’s a ton of crap in the air. Certain molecules are probably better apt to handlng that, and it’s not necessarily just about molecular weight(?) > > One of the things I talked about with Jasmin in our initial contacts was whether long or short chained molecules affected diffusion. Clusters I guess? I’m not great on my chemistry, but I know something like H20 appears as 5H20 or 20H20 for instance. Diffusion is really part of an area of science called chemical physics. Not my forte. It’s interesting, dangerously so (I always dive into things I shouldn’t always do myself), but I honestly don’t have time to conquer it right now. I may be able to hire down the line to. Just a matter of resource allocation, especially with the changes going on right now. Fired most of our clients. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/department-store-fragrances-in-pheromones/34/15 "2005-10-18T12:03:32Z")
> [@Aurelie](#): > > Alright let’s try this one more time before my week-long trip to Africa! 😛 Oh my god, you’re going to Africa! Take me! > [@Aurelie](#): > > Yes, a citrus-scented carrier with good diffusion properties gets my vote as well. Citrus is a non-obtrusive unisex scent. It just adds a little “zing” to whatever perfume the user chooses to wear. I know that I would chose this version over the unscented, lesser-diffusing version of the kit. > > Pheromol Factor for women seems to follow those principles. It smells like perfume, but almost as if it were striped of most of the “smelling” components. It makes it real handy to apply to the nape of my neck and behind my ears, and still allows me to spray my regular favorite perfume everywhere else. Ah, your nape. I see you are using the secret of Japanese women. Thanks for your comments here. > [@Aurelie](#): > > Pheros is indeed a work of art, but I noticed it was lacking a bit as far as diffusion went. Pheros is just genius, and yes, it really seems like it suffers in the diffusion department. When you draw someone into the realm of your personal space, though… mmm! > [@Aurelie](#): > > Other than that, what do you think of this: > Little bottles of EO mixes based on aromatherapy principles. Things like: > > - Relax > - Invigorate > - Sexy > - Synergy > to complement the goals we are trying to achieve with the pheromones? I like aromatherapy a lot, that’s why we have the pheroma label slowly taking shape in the background (we can send you some killer relaxation dead sea salts if you want!). EOs definitely help and contain their own magic. EOs are as old and complex as nature itself. Problem is, they don’t diffuse that well. That’s not always bad. It doesn’t hurt A314. In fact, I think it helps. A314 is intentionally gentle and natural. That what what I’ve been optimizing it for, to make it work safe, and a stable “heart”. However, many pheromone users, especially new ones, tell me that they want to be clocked over the head. You need heavy diffusion for that. That doesn’t mean you can’t use a bulk of EOs, and then use some of the diffusion magic from standard perfumery. Is that idea anathema or OK? I was thinking of laying down the money to hire this famous perfumer that has gone freelance. If he could add his magic (they never tell give you the formulas, you have to pay for them bulk) to a mostly EO blend, that would be interesting, I think. So you’d have something like the standard aromatherapy line, along with a smidge of the diffusive properties added from the allchemical scent world. Two worlds of excellence colliding. > [@Aurelie](#): > > So are you saying that for optimal results with the raw pheromones I already have, I should? > > - Spray some of my favorite perfume in a little vial > - Add the pheromones > - Wait a day > - Use Yes. Pheromones aren’t heavy, but they are heavy in terms of the typical scent molecules. You’ll disperse them much better when mixed with a highly diffusive perfume. You could mix it with one where people comment “Aurelie, I could smell you a mile away”. What do you like, by the way? I always like hearing about people’s favorite perfumes and colognes. > [@Aurelie](#): > > Should we avoid overspraying a product with our own perfume? Maybe apply right next to it? I think that’s the next best thing (spraying on top of it), but it doesn’t work as well as mixing and waiting. If you mix it with a product with a great number of naturals, you have to wait a long time. A couple weeks. I don’t know what EOs know that normal petrochemical scents don’t. I’ll bug chemists about it, but most chemists are too overspecialized in narrow areas to ask a seemingly simple question like this. What I really need to do, at the next trade show, is get some of the perfume industry chemists drunk enough to forget about NDAs. Seriously. > [@Aurelie](#): > > The way I think of us is as “Members of a secret club”. Not that pheromone research should remain a secret, to the contrary. But most of us don’t go around advertising that we are wearing them. Isn’t that kinda fun? Members of an underground research club? Is it just me, or are you thinkng my thoughts? Ask Jasmin what I was talking about a week or two ago! Unreal. I wasn’t thinking this for the reason you give, but I was thinking of a super secret pheromone club… in part, because I’m a member of two such secret research societies. It’s a lot of fun being part of something secret. It’s actually very useful being able to discuss things in small groups out of the public eye. Kind of like how the A314 Insider’s Success club is the anti-envy part of the forums. I tell members, you show envy in here, you’re out. Of course, I haven’t grown it yet, but I think that simple premise could be useful over time as it does grow. Forums and groups are like bonzai trees, I guess. You can grow and prune them to purpose.