# Discussion-Alpha vs bad-boy **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [December 23, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041 "2009-12-23T09:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![meow333x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@meow333x](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/meow333x)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/21 "2009-12-24T20:46:16Z")
> [@Gegogi](#): > > According to JVK’s SOE tome, humans produce and process mone signatures from birth. It’s part of how a baby recognizes and bonds with its mother. I think as we mature into adults, socialization creates filters and we can choose to ignore urges from mones. She may think, “gross, for some freakin’ reason this guy makes me hot,” but chooses to ignore him because he’s too poor or wears last year’s fashions. I’ve made similar choices many times, most typically being intimidated by an ultra alpha high status suit but choosing to ignore my fears and butt heads with him in hopes of achieving my goals. One thing I’ve noticed about obviously alpha appearing men is they often depend on appearance and intimidation, and fold easy if they think you’re determined to put up a fight. I think many of them actually enjoy a real challenge and respect you more for it. It’s the wannabe alphas you need to watch out for. obviously appearing alphas? what? that’s called a fake. i think you’re describing external characteristics here. anybody can put on an act. the leadership alpha type deal that’s in internal state of mind. you can’t fake that on appearance or intimidation. if someone is trying to be intimidating then that’s just that, they’re trying to be intimidating, i don’t think they have any alpha aspriations. nobody wants to follow a bully no matter how much shit he puts up. i’m still kind of confused why you guys are hell bent on trying keyword trying to describe the external world. you do realize that it won’t get you anywhere right? Minimalistic…are you trying to become an alpha male or are you trying to postulate how the world works…those are two very different things. ---
**Author:** ![Gegogi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gegogi/32/1536_2.png) [@Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/22 "2009-12-25T00:27:14Z")
Meow, you must be having having a stressful holiday. Sorry about that. Peace brother. Have a drink and kick back. It’s all good if you want it to be. Let go of of whatever is bothering you and enjoy life. Okay, I’m on a positive spike as I just got back from Vegas and did really well. Really well. Ho ho ho is all I can say! Now back to our regularly scheduled program. An example of an “obviously alpha appearing man” in my world is a high ranking executive, a person far my superior and able to fire my ass with a mere phone call or stroke of the pen. He is the big kuhuna and the fearless leader of thousands of employees. The Dean of Arts and Sciences or Provost of my college are such men. They look, talk and act the part of an alpha, and they also have the status and power to back it up. Most bow at their feet, kiss ass profusely and don’t dare glaze upon their greatness. And, yes, I have dared to butt heads with them and, unlike my wimpy colleagues, am now invited to their parties. ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/23 "2009-12-25T00:44:10Z")
Mother/infant recognition is more a function of olfactory/pheromonal cues associated with the Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) of mammals (i.e., the Human Leucocyte Antigen (HLA) region of genes in humans, which are typically associated with “tissue type” or genetic diversity/similarity). These MHC-dependent cues are rarely differentiated (e.g., by marketers) from the olfactory/pheromonal cues that are associated with age. Age-related production begins with the onset of adrenarche (not with puberty, like most sources say). Cues associated with dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) production begin as early as age 6-8. Most of us would be unlikely to notice the subtle change in a 6-8 year-old child’s scent compared to a younger child’s scent, but instead recognize the change with increased gonadal hormone production with the onset of puberty. Remember when you first noticed your own axillary odor? Your mom noticed your natural scent changing long before you did. By the time of life anyone is perceived by someone else as an alpha, associations with the alpha-characteristic scent have been made from a much earlier time in life (age 6-8?). Simply put, if you lack the ability to recognize an alpha by the time you confront one as a reproductively mature adult, you run the risk of challenging someone like Gegogi to a fight that you’re unlikely to win. Fortunately for you, perhaps, a true alpha is not easily provoked, and exudes the kind of confidence that makes an intelligent person think twice. That’s why an intelligent woman might think twice about choosing the idiot who starts a fight compared to the intelligent alpha who would rather avoid it. But she’s also choosing based on scent that is associated with the physical characteristics of the alpha male. And the physical characteristics are associated with levels of gonadal and adrenal steroid hormones. Tall, dark, and handsome is merely a visual description of an alpha’s scent signature. Add muscle and/or confidence and the olfactory/pheromonal - visual link becomes more clear. Illness will first suppress immune system-related (MHC/HLA) scent production and progress to suppress gonadal hormone-associated scent production. A sick (or sickly male) will have a less appealing odor, and there are age-associated aspects of this as well. Older men don’t typically smell like young studs… I think you all know that I could write another book or two on [human pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/). But my scientific perspective just doesn’t sell as well as most products do. So, I’ll leave you in Gegogi’s qualified and considerate hands. Minimally, he has read a book about human pheromones. I’ve never met him, but can tell he’s an alpha male because I’ve made associations with their characteristics across a life-time of experience. I don’t need to sniff around to recognize an alpha male from a distance, or simply from his written words – and neither do you, or the women you are interested in. Remember that saying about the pen being mightier than the sword? If you’re not communicating with olfactory/pheromonal cues, you still can communicate – get it? On the other hand, if you do happen to meet an alpha-male, your experience with his natural scent will assure you (albeit at a sub-conscious level) of his status. That’s why pheromone-enhancement with the right product can benefit you in closer proximity. Want to win the fight before it starts, potentially without effort, or increase your chances of getting the girl? Make yourself smell like an alpha. Smell like you look bigger and better! Thanks for mentioning my book, Gegogi. Quite a few of its pages can be read on-line at sites like Amazon, which makes me wonder why more people don’t take a look at it. Perhaps they think it’s too much science to grasp. James V. Kohl `http://www.pheromones.com` > [@Gegogi](#): > > According to JVK’s SOE tome, humans produce and process mone signatures from birth. It’s part of how a baby recognizes and bonds with its mother. I think as we mature into adults, socialization creates filters and we can choose to ignore urges from mones. She may think, “gross, for some freakin’ reason this guy makes me hot,” but chooses to ignore him because he’s too poor or wears last year’s fashions. I’ve made similar choices many times, most typically being intimidated by an ultra alpha high status suit but choosing to ignore my fears and butt heads with him in hopes of achieving my goals. One thing I’ve noticed about obviously alpha appearing men is they often depend on appearance and intimidation, and fold easy if they think you’re determined to put up a fight. I think many of them actually enjoy a real challenge and respect you more for it. It’s the wannabe alphas you need to watch out for. ---
**Author:** ![meow333x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@meow333x](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/meow333x)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/24 "2009-12-25T08:50:50Z")
> [@Gegogi](#): > > Meow, you must be having having a stressful holiday. Sorry about that. Peace brother. Have a drink and kick back. It’s all good if you want it to be. Let go of of whatever is bothering you and enjoy life. Okay, I’m on a positive spike as I just got back from Vegas and did really well. Really well. Ho ho ho is all I can say! > > Now back to our regularly scheduled program. An example of an “obviously alpha appearing man” in my world is a high ranking executive, a person far my superior and able to fire my ass with a mere phone call or stroke of the pen. He is the big kuhuna and the fearless leader of thousands of employees. The Dean of Arts and Sciences or Provost of my college are such men. They look, talk and act the part of an alpha, and they also have the status and power to back it up. Most bow at their feet, kiss ass profusely and don’t dare glaze upon their greatness. And, yes, I have dared to butt heads with them and, unlike my wimpy colleagues, am now invited to their parties. naw man, i’m actually very chill believe it or not. don’t know a dam thing about suit types. but butting heads seems weird. i can get respect from thugs easily not cause i look like one or cause i butt heads with them, but because i can get along with them. i dunno dude, butting heads or doing anything along that line seems like a hail mary kind of thing to me. why bother when it’s so much easier to have a friendly conversation with someone. ---
**Author:** ![minimalistic](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/minimalistic/32/1676_2.png) [@minimalistic](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/minimalistic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/25 "2009-12-25T10:47:16Z")
> [@meow333x](#): > > Minimalistic…are you trying to become an alpha male or are you trying to postulate how the world works…those are two very different things. bro seriously…i think this is the second or third time im repeating this to you im just trying to understand everything…im thirsty for knowledge let it go my friend ---
**Author:** ![Zealous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/2bfe46/32.png) [@Zealous](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Zealous)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/26 "2009-12-25T10:49:30Z")
> [@meow333x](#): > > obviously appearing alphas? what? that’s called a fake. i think you’re describing external characteristics here. anybody can put on an act. the leadership alpha type deal that’s in internal state of mind. you can’t fake that on appearance or intimidation. if someone is trying to be intimidating then that’s just that, they’re trying to be intimidating, i don’t think they have any alpha aspriations. nobody wants to follow a bully no matter how much shit he puts up. i’m still kind of confused why you guys are hell bent on trying keyword trying to describe the external world. you do realize that it won’t get you anywhere right? > Minimalistic…are you trying to become an alpha male or are you trying to postulate how the world works…those are two very different things. To, minimalistic, a very interesting topic that you’ve posted. And I have to agree on meow that your internal beliefs must be congruent to your intentions. But meow, you are thinking very black and white, as minimalistic is finding a congruence on how the world works along with its social environment to alpha males and their effect on individuals. And you do have to give minamalistic credit for his depth on the topic of social psychology and the science behind it. But you are 100% spot on to the fact that the concept of Alphas has been distorted beyond belief, as well as I can see that your internal state of mind is congruent with the beliefs that you hold. To minamalistic, Jean Piaget said that the phermones are typically produced at puberty. But Kohlerman modifies the hypothesis in giving the detail in when and how it is produced depending on the time of month, state of health, and lastly, state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![minimalistic](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/minimalistic/32/1676_2.png) [@minimalistic](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/minimalistic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/27 "2009-12-25T10:49:32Z")
> [@jvkohl](#): > > Mother/infant recognition is more a function of olfactory/pheromonal cues associated with the Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) of mammals (i.e., the Human Leucocyte Antigen (HLA) region of genes in humans, which are typically associated with “tissue type” or genetic diversity/similarity). > > These MHC-dependent cues are rarely differentiated (e.g., by marketers) from the olfactory/pheromonal cues that are associated with age. Age-related production begins with the onset of adrenarche (not with puberty, like most sources say). Cues associated with dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) production begin as early as age 6-8. > > Most of us would be unlikely to notice the subtle change in a 6-8 year-old child’s scent compared to a younger child’s scent, but instead recognize the change with increased gonadal hormone production with the onset of puberty. Remember when you first noticed your own axillary odor? Your mom noticed your natural scent changing long before you did. > > By the time of life anyone is perceived by someone else as an alpha, associations with the alpha-characteristic scent have been made from a much earlier time in life (age 6-8?). Simply put, if you lack the ability to recognize an alpha by the time you confront one as a reproductively mature adult, you run the risk of challenging someone like Gegogi to a fight that you’re unlikely to win. Fortunately for you, perhaps, a true alpha is not easily provoked, and exudes the kind of confidence that makes an intelligent person think twice. That’s why an intelligent woman might think twice about choosing the idiot who starts a fight compared to the intelligent alpha who would rather avoid it. But she’s also choosing based on scent that is associated with the physical characteristics of the alpha male. And the physical characteristics are associated with levels of gonadal and adrenal steroid hormones. Tall, dark, and handsome is merely a visual description of an alpha’s scent signature. Add muscle and/or confidence and the olfactory/pheromonal - visual link becomes more clear. > > Illness will first suppress immune system-related (MHC/HLA) scent production and progress to suppress gonadal hormone-associated scent production. A sick (or sickly male) will have a less appealing odor, and there are age-associated aspects of this as well. Older men don’t typically smell like young studs… > > I think you all know that I could write another book or two on human pheromones. But my scientific perspective just doesn’t sell as well as most products do. So, I’ll leave you in Gegogi’s qualified and considerate hands. Minimally, he has read a book about human pheromones. > > I’ve never met him, but can tell he’s an alpha male because I’ve made associations with their characteristics across a life-time of experience. I don’t need to sniff around to recognize an alpha male from a distance, or simply from his written words – and neither do you, or the women you are interested in. Remember that saying about the pen being mightier than the sword? If you’re not communicating with olfactory/pheromonal cues, you still can communicate – get it? > > On the other hand, if you do happen to meet an alpha-male, your experience with his natural scent will assure you (albeit at a sub-conscious level) of his status. That’s why pheromone-enhancement with the right product can benefit you in closer proximity. Want to win the fight before it starts, potentially without effort, or increase your chances of getting the girl? Make yourself smell like an alpha. Smell like you look bigger and better! > > Thanks for mentioning my book, Gegogi. Quite a few of its pages can be read on-line at sites like Amazon, which makes me wonder why more people don’t take a look at it. Perhaps they think it’s too much science to grasp. > > James V. Kohl > `http://www.pheromones.com` mucho gracias jvk thats exactly the answer i was looking for.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zealous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/2bfe46/32.png) [@Zealous](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Zealous)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/28 "2009-12-25T10:52:08Z")
> [@meow333x](#): > > obviously appearing alphas? what? that’s called a fake. i think you’re describing external characteristics here. anybody can put on an act. the leadership alpha type deal that’s in internal state of mind. you can’t fake that on appearance or intimidation. if someone is trying to be intimidating then that’s just that, they’re trying to be intimidating, i don’t think they have any alpha aspriations. nobody wants to follow a bully no matter how much shit he puts up. i’m still kind of confused why you guys are hell bent on trying keyword trying to describe the external world. you do realize that it won’t get you anywhere right? > Minimalistic…are you trying to become an alpha male or are you trying to postulate how the world works…those are two very different things. > [@meow333x](#): > > obviously appearing alphas? what? that’s called a fake. i think you’re describing external characteristics here. anybody can put on an act. the leadership alpha type deal that’s in internal state of mind. you can’t fake that on appearance or intimidation. if someone is trying to be intimidating then that’s just that, they’re trying to be intimidating, i don’t think they have any alpha aspriations. nobody wants to follow a bully no matter how much shit he puts up. i’m still kind of confused why you guys are hell bent on trying keyword trying to describe the external world. you do realize that it won’t get you anywhere right? > Minimalistic…are you trying to become an alpha male or are you trying to postulate how the world works…those are two very different things. To, minimalistic, a very interesting topic that you’ve posted. And I have to agree on meow that your internal beliefs must be congruent to your intentions. But meow, you are thinking very black and white, as minimalistic is finding a congruence on how the world works along with its social environment to alpha males and their effect on individuals. And you do have to give minamalistic credit for his depth on the topic of social psychology and the science behind it. But you are 100% spot on to the fact that the concept of Alphas has been distorted beyond belief, as well as I can see that your internal state of mind is congruent with the beliefs that you hold. To minamalistic, Jean Piaget said that the phermones are typically produced at puberty. But Kohlerman modifies the hypothesis in giving the detail in when and how it is produced depending on the time of month, state of health, and lastly, state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![Gegogi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gegogi/32/1536_2.png) [@Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/30 "2009-12-25T11:56:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Meow writes, “i dunno dude, butting heads or doing anything along that line seems like a hail mary kind of thing to me. why bother when it’s so much easier to have a friendly conversation with someone.” Friendly conversations mainly fall within the realm of happy hour, cocktail parties and golf games. “Butting heads” is a figure of speech meant to demonstrate the seriousness of our business interactions and political horse trading. Professors do not normally physically butt heads with administrators, although we sometimes bump uglies at cocktail parties! We butt heads on a more abstract level: a duo of wits, willpower and intellect. And the weapons of choice are words, both written and spoken. Written words are the most powerful and bring the most rewards, often from far beyond your campus (publication, grants, respect, frame, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/31 "2009-12-25T22:33:59Z")
> [@Zealous](#): > > To minamalistic, Jean Piaget said that the phermones are typically produced at puberty. But Kohlerman modifies the hypothesis in giving the detail in when and how it is produced depending on the time of month, state of health, and lastly, state of mind. Zealous, I’d appreciate a citation to the work by Kohlerman. Here’s an excerpt from Hollar, 2009 that may be saying something similar (and he cites my 2001 paper). The full text is available on line at this URL: [SpringerLink Home - Main](http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10709-009-9369-8) **Risk for intentional violent death associated with HLA genotypes: a preliminary survey of deceased American organ donors** I’m always interested in research that suggest some original thought might be involved, and also like to track it back to where that thought might have originated. Note the dates in the references below, and the citation to Kohl, which was published earlier than most of the other works cited, with the prelude: “Based upon this evidence”. What we wrote in 2001 probably wasn’t based on evidence published after 2001, it was based on a mammalian model–the only one that remains unchallenged. “Whereas no previous HLA studies have addressed aggression, its relevance is pertinent for putative HLArelated behaviors. Aggression is closely associated with mating and inter-individual social hierarchies in most animal models (Lorenz 1966; Wilson 1975; Hemelrijk and Kunz 2004; Brennan and Kendrick 2006; Snowdon et al. 2006; Scordato and Drea 2007; Hemelrijk et al. 2008), and many of these models strongly implicate HLA as a detectable, selective force (Lewis 1998; Eggert et al. 1999a; Landry et al. 2001; Hambuch and Lacey 2002; Yamazaki et al. 2002; Milinski et al. 2005; Petfield et al. 2005; Brennan and Kendrick 2006). **Based upon this evidence, Kohl et al. (2001) suggested new approaches to studying MHC-based pheromonal recognition among humans and mammals, including precise measurements of individual HLA genotypes among interacting individuals, considerations of varying biochemistries, changes in physiological status, and human microbial flora.** Lewis (1998) postulated that the research indicates kin recognition and favoritism among similar HLA genotypes but mating preferences for differing HLA genotypes coupled with increased disease resistance.” My **emphasis** added. As discussed, much more than the production of sex steroid hormones is involved. So, why has the focus of so much marketing been on only the sex steroid hormone production link to pheromones? Perhaps, as I indicated before, the science is too much. James V. Kohl [scentoferos.com](http://scentoferos.com) ---
**Author:** ![Sillykitty](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/sillykitty/32/1574_2.png) [@Sillykitty](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Sillykitty)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/32 "2009-12-26T00:53:44Z")
> [@jvkohl](#): > > So, why has the focus of so much marketing been on only the sex steroid hormone production link to pheromones? Perhaps, as I indicated before, the science is too much. Because, as you must know, “sex sells”, and unfortunately, money is what the majority is all about. They don’t want to know about the science, though they would not have their sex steroid hormones without it. ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/33 "2009-12-26T02:49:26Z")
I’m convinced that there will be more money generated by keeping with the science than the marketing, which is only good for the short term. The science is what lasts, albeit with changes in parts of the picture. Eventually, we will get to therapeutic effects of pheromones, but the “sex sells” mentality tends to hold the real research at bay. One the one hand, it’s good so that more people hear about [human pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/). But few researchers who have spent years obtaining academic credentials are willing to be associated with sexually oriented product advertising. Even I find this frustrating. I met a lady recently whose in-laws I knew through the local Chamber of Commerce. When she asked them about me, her sister-in-law said that all she knew was that I sold sex hormones. Not a big deal since I’m not out to impress anyone with my background. Still, it makes me wonder what others are capable of comprehending when I discuss my work and products. James V. Kohl [scentoferos.com](http://scentoferos.com) > [@Sillykitty](#): > > Because, as you must know, “sex sells”, and unfortunately, money is what the majority is all about. They don’t want to know about the science, though they would not have their sex steroid hormones without it. ---
**Author:** ![Sillykitty](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/sillykitty/32/1574_2.png) [@Sillykitty](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Sillykitty)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/34 "2009-12-26T05:24:26Z")
> [@jvkohl](#): > > I’m convinced that there will be more money generated by keeping with the science than the marketing, which is only good for the short term. The science is what lasts, albeit with changes in parts of the picture. > > Eventually, we will get to therapeutic effects of pheromones, but the “sex sells” mentality tends to hold the real research at bay. I agree that the long-term benefits will reap their own rewards, with potentially greater financial benefits. However, the “sexually oriented” scientific breakthroughs and knowledge are real and true, and are here to stay. The “sex sells” mentality does not hold the real research at bay, I should hope that it still continues regardless. What that mentality does is to possibly mislead popular or general opinion that pheromones are only all about sex. And for the moment, there’s nothing wrong with that. When the time comes for the therapeutic effects to be known, the way will have already been paved, awareness will already exist, even if that awareness happens to be of a sexual nature. The science will be believable. > [@jvkohl](#): > > One the one hand, it’s good so that more people hear about human pheromones. But few researchers who have spent years obtaining academic credentials are willing to be associated with sexually oriented product advertising. Then that is their choice, and unfortunately part of the cross that they must bear. If they are truly dedicated to their science, then such superficialities should not be deterrents. > [@jvkohl](#): > > Even I find this frustrating. I met a lady recently whose in-laws I knew through the local Chamber of Commerce. When she asked them about me, her sister-in-law said that all she knew was that I sold sex hormones. Not a big deal since I’m not out to impress anyone with my background. Still, it makes me wonder what others are capable of comprehending when I discuss my work and products. Never mind what they might think. I know that’s easier said than done, none of us wants to be misunderstood and be possibly viewed as “seedy and shallow”. If that is the limit of their intelligence, that is their problem, not yours. There is nothing wrong with being associated with sex hormones, as long as they are legitimate. And anyone who wishes to think less of your work and products, did they never have sex before? Did they never wish they had a little help in attracting a mate? ---
**Author:** ![Gegogi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gegogi/32/1536_2.png) [@Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/35 "2009-12-26T07:50:02Z")
> [@](#): > > And anyone who wishes to think less of your work and products, did they never have sex before? Did they never wish they had a little help in attracting a mate? Probably only for 3 minutes at a porn site. Well, they have [harmony.com](http://harmony.com)’s money back guaranty working for them! ---
**Author:** ![andrew88777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@andrew88777](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/andrew88777)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/36 "2009-12-26T15:20:17Z")
This was the most interesting topic that I have seen discussed here recently. Thank you for all of your guys opinions! Wonderful stuff really! What I like to read! I have been considering this topic myself recently and putting thought into it. I have something to add, while it may be pheromones and hormones that make someone Alpha, environmental capacities also play a role I believe. I (feel that I) possess many traits of a leader. I always seem to attract people to me (without synthetic pheromones) anywhere that I go. They seem to view me as a leader, at first at least. Physically, I do not (feel that I) look Alpha. I appear thin (I weigh 185 though) , have bad posture, and do not carry myself well. That being said, there are times when I shine through all of this, and display Alpha qualities. I am very smart. Normally I do not apply myself to shine. I cannot motivate myself to do it. However meow333x mentioned he has seen many pussies turn into heroes. That is me. People who first meet me see something in me, that unfortunately does not show most of the time. After a while, my personality (flaws) seem to overtake the original estimate of my worth from an initial meeting. If a person stays long enough, they will see (again) what they first saw and become loyal to me. I think I am this way due to the way I was treated as a child. Lots of mental abuse (also lots of physical abuse as well), I think that the abuse has stunted my emotional growth enough to distort my perception of myself to “take away” my alpha qualities much of the time. I have tried to play the “badboy” role (very successfully) to overcome my deficiencies. Being a badboy let me get the women that I wanted, also live a fun filled life. It played a role, enabling myself, to ignore the issues I had. Now, true “badboys” would be able to see thru my facade. However the Alpha qualities, would attract them to me. They would accept me and want to be around me. So this association with the badboys, would give credit that I was a true badboy. Now that I am older, I have stopped being that “badboy”. I have a family, and want to be successful. That is what partly brought me to this community. Not playing a pretend role, has left me in a lurch. I (feel I) do not have a space to fill. I am not a badboy. I am not an Alpha. But I am not Beta either. Because of this, I do not have any real close connections with others. I am like an outsider. Not completely accepted by anyone, because they cannot place me into a role inside their head. If they try, then I do not completely fit the mold. So they in response do not understand how to respond to me. I am working on my issues of course 🙂 I believe they will actually propel me to success in fact. That is another story though. So my theory is that, even though being Alpha is a natural gift whether pheromonal or hormonal or in a nutshell biological, I believe that environment also plays a (maybe large) part of the picture as well. While you may not be able to remove the Alpha completely from someone, you can change/prevent someone from being a true Alpha. Now whether you can make a Beta, into an Alpha. That I am not sure of. I agree that Gegogi, is a true Alpha. At least on the internet. I do not know him personally, so I cannot truly say. I do not say this to put him down. (I want to use him as an example, because he is the best example here) I have the upmost respect for him. More respect for him, than lets say 99% of the people that I see, even here. I know that I will always get his honest opinion from him. Even if it is a stubborn one. 🙂 If the same attitude carries over to the real world, then yes, he is truly an Alpha. Being a part of this community, I have noticed that there are not many Alphas here. It also seems that most people that visit here, are in search of becoming Alpha. Many believe that pheromones are a tool that may allow them to become Alpha. How many of them succeeded? Few. If any. Everyone that I have seen here, that appears Alpha, seems to have been that way from the start. What if you were to offer additional tools other than pheromones? What if a beta individual, were to do a complete lifestyle change? Physically, mentally, changed their dress, used “alpha” pheromones, got their life on track and received positive feedback on Alpha actions. Basically, constantly positioning themselves in a positive state moving towards the life of a successful Alpha person, would they eventually (with experience) become Alpha? Or would they just be more Alpha-like? I have an idea, and plan on testing this theory out. Just want to hear others opinions and ideas. I am working to change myself, and wonder if others could be helped out as well. I know there are books that describe how to be Alpha. I am going to read one of them soon. If anyone has a good suggestion please let me know. 🙂 Also if there have been studies into this, also please share as well. ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/37 "2009-12-26T16:43:01Z")
Rarely have I found anyone, even me, to be Alpha in all encounters/personality aspects. For example, when I first joined a “public speaking” group, I was obviously not accomplished enough to come off well in our friendly competitions. Within a few years, I became one of the Alphas, and after eight years had won many awards within the group of 50 members. However, there were other members who competed and won awards both regionally and nationally. I would not even attempt to qualify for such competition, even though it probably would have increased my Alpha status. Same type of thing when I first joined a local gym. Five years later with 20 more pounds of muscle, I was much more Alpha, but not THE Alpha, and never would be. Simply put, I agree that the environment you are in plays a big role in status. I also know that [pheromone](https://a314.com/)-enhanced products can help to increase the perception of that status, in most --if not all- circumstances. (if we’re both competing for a lady’s attention while skydiving, for example, pheromone-enhancement won’t make any difference). That’s where the additional tools you might have at your disposal could come in handy. Join the gym, add 20 lbs of muscle and your testosterone level as well as your masculine scent production will be higher. Also, sun exposure increases Vitamin D (a hormone) production, which corrects testosterone deficiency in some male mammals. So darker skin associated with a sun tan might be the reason a sun tan is attractive to some people (i.e., due to the association with a more masculine scent signature). Those of us who are vertically challenged (i.e., short) can wear boots, or shoes with lifts that make us appear taller so that we can gain through associations women have made between being taller and having a more masculine scent signature. You already have a few pieces of the big picture that shows how scent associations are readily linked to what people think are visual preferences for physical characteristics. I’m sure most people can think of many more, if they only would start thinking about how their sense of smell influences their personal preferences (typically at an unconscious level). One book I recommend is “The Scent of Eros: Mysteries of Odor in Human Sexuality,” but my recommendations can be somewhat biased by authorship status. James V. Kohl [scentoferos.com](http://scentoferos.com) ---
**Author:** ![andrew88777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@andrew88777](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/andrew88777)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/38 "2009-12-26T17:37:16Z")
Thank you for the insight! So you are suggesting that someone could possibly be “alpha” of a group, depending on the enviornment they are in? For instance at the gym, if someone that was not Alpha. A Beta in fact. Lets say they put on 60 lbs of muscle, became the largest person in the gym. They would be knowledgeable about working out, having done it themselves, over the course of a few years. People would respect him, because of his size, dedication, and knowledge. Would that make him Alpha? If so, And you put that same guy into a public speaking group (and he was not all that great) would he still be Alpha? Or would he be Beta. His stature would still be taken into effect. Many would have respect for him, however many would also look down upon him, because of his lack of skill, and his athletic prowess being off the charts compared to their’s. Would that mean that you cannot always be an Alpha? Also I will check the book out. Hopefully available from amazon 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gegogi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gegogi/32/1536_2.png) [@Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/39 "2009-12-26T18:02:34Z")
I agree, environment is a big part of what makes you alpha. I’m only an alpha in my professional environment: conducting an ensemble, performing on stage, lecturing or in a faculty meeting. On the street I’m like everyone else, just another face in the crowd. After all, your alpha role as leader only works with people that know and interact with you. You may show alpha traits outside your normal environment, but nobody is going to follow you because of that. I’m a very good public speaker but I’d be quickly dismissed as an idiot speaking at a police or medical convention! And I was Johnny Dipstick in dance class (GF’s idea of fun), the lowest of the low. What digs me is the “alpha” males at certain TSA checkpoints. Not too many situations these guys can be alpha and get away with it, so they wield their power at full volume. Dumb as a stick, mean as a junk yard dog but really eager to push you around, especially if you exhibit any alpha characteristics. Not a good idea to challenge them, even if you’re right, as you’re the lowest dog on the hierarchy, and they love to take you down if you twitch. I just met one of these guys at the Vegas airport and I wanted to smack him so bad. Instead, I tucked in my balls, slouched and said yes sir and thanked him for giving me a hard time in the interest of national security. Made my flight on time and am in paradise while he’s lording over old ladies in wheelchairs. ---
**Author:** ![meow333x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@meow333x](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/meow333x)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/40 "2009-12-26T18:06:13Z")
whoa there dudes. andrew, first of all, i gotta comend you for doing stuff to change your life. too many people just sit around and try to explain how the world works without trying to become part of the world. it’s funny how the more you act, the less explanation you need. the topic of alpha vs. beta is a strange one because people are completely confused what the terms stand for. and when i say people i mean everyone because there’s just no congruency. do a search for a thread called “why men love prostitutes” it got pretty heated up in there for a bit. also you guys are describing external qualities, like how people act, posture, group dynamics etc. understand that alpha beta are all mental attitudes. you can be alpha or beta stranded by yourself on an island. as far as becoming alpha man, that’s a whole different can of worms ---
**Author:** ![nikefredo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9bcb4/32.png) [@nikefredo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/nikefredo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041/41 "2009-12-26T18:21:13Z")
ok I’ve been reading this for some time and I have some input. Hitler, was a born leader. Since he was young he was always able to become the ‘ring leader’. There are many things that affect hiw he came into power. Mones IMO had no effect or vary little effect. Note that this was also in germany (were small things like bread cost as much as 1 m [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041.md?page=1) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/discussion-alpha-vs-bad-boy/35041.md?page=3)