# First date...To pay or not to pay **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [April 2, 2007, 7:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867 "2007-04-02T07:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@ash](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ash)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/61 "2007-04-06T14:02:04Z")
MarkL that is so great. You deserve more than my puny singular rep point for the wonderful discourse and ideas. That’s just awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/62 "2007-04-06T14:03:34Z")
> [@ash](#): > > MarkL that is so great. You deserve more than my puny singular rep point for the wonderful discourse and ideas. That’s just awesome. i think i gave him 11 :o ---
**Author:** ![SteveO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@SteveO](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SteveO)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/63 "2007-04-06T14:34:04Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > I think that I jumped on Steveo’s line of thinking with both feet, which I did **NOT** intend to do. I am in complete agreement with him that a first date should not be a dinner date, unless there is some truly exceptional circumstance. But I don’t think a dinner has to be an interview nor a mundane feeding. > > And BTW … if a woman invites me to dinner, I’ll ask her if she’s footing the bill if it’s not clear. And I will most certainly let her pay – I’m not even going to suggest I “pay the tip” – it’s a matter of respecting HER right to spend her money as she wishes as a full partner in our friendship. And depending on how the invitation is framed and offered, I can say there aren’t many things that **I** find more of an ego boost / sexy atmosphere – I never expect it, but it’s hot when it’s offered. > > Yes, I learned the tactics I mentioned above back when it wasn’t a problem to spend a few hundred dollars for a dinner or for crystal goblets, or in hiring a limousine to pick my date up (without me … I’d be waiting for her at the venue; this truly builds enormous suspense and creates a very “supportive” atmosphere for romance.) > > But the same strategy **works with moderately priced** restaurants. If you’re spending $40 – or $25 – apiece for cocktails and food, having a $15 flower arrangement created for you and delivered to your table has a powerful impact. > > Ladies – tell us – do you ever think bad things about a guy who associates you with flowers? > > Note: With florists I find I can usually work with the owner or one of the partners; I tell him I’m on a tight budget, but give him complete creative freedom: here’s $15, I know it’s not much, do what you can. And I make sure he knows the arrangement will be presented at the dinner table for two at a restaurant – that it will be a small in size but big in importance centerpiece for a romantic dinner. 19 times out of 20, the florist’s vanity (and business sense) results in him creating a $30+ arrangement for me – because he appreciates the challenge, the fun of doing his own thing, and knowing that many people will see his work, and that it might even generate some business for him. > > Oh, BTW, from the movies you’d think a $10 bill hardly gets you a glance from the headwaiter. I once had a headwaiter sneer at my $10 bill … but I wasn’t asking for the owner’s table next to the bandstand (a scarce resource, really … he could wangle a hundred or more for a choice table at times.) I pointed out to him that I was paying him for three minutes of his time … one minute to check the bill, add the tip, and drop the receipt in the envelope, and two minutes to explain to the waiter how NOT to present the bill at the table, and why. Which ten dollars for three minutes, I pointed out, worked out to $200 per hour after tax, or $400 per hour pre tax … and I said if he made that much from his job, then he certainly didn’t need my ten and I’d be happy to take it back – I didn’t want to insult him. It took him less than 3 seconds to get my point, and do the math … I think all headwaiters are mathematicians at heart … and he graciously allowed that $10 for three minutes of his time was actually appropriate, and might even be generous. > > Sharing a meal with someone you like is a naturally bonding human experience. Not having to hunt the food, build the fire, skin the catch, cook it … and clean up afterwards is a pure gift from the GODS. (I have a bias, I work in the food and beverage industry.) Making the experience distinctive is something you CAN do without spending a prince’s purse:There’s an acapella group that practices on Tuesday nights next door to one of my favorite restaurants. I bought one of their EP-CDs for $8 and promised to play it at work if they would sing **one** song at my table the following Tuesday. They agreed, the maitre d’ was cool – and they sang three cuts to three standing ovations from the patrons. At **my** table. The restaurant owner comped our after dinner drinks and has started a discussion with the group about performing there now and then. > > My date was suitably impressed. (The total tab was only $62 plus tip, thanks to the free drinks.) > I will venture to say that A314 has helped me get even **more better** cooperation from florists and headwaiters and acapella singing group directors. > > The scope of leverage you can apply to making a dinner something memorable and fun is only limited by your imagination. The funny thing though MarkL, many women who posted on this subject wouldn’t give you the chance, or a second date to show how suave you are. They said themselves that if you didn’t pay for the first date, there would be no second date. Not to worry though, for me it would never get as far as a first date. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/64 "2007-04-06T16:12:19Z")
_doffs hat and bows deep_ I’ll be here all week … remember to tip your waitstaff and bartenders… ---
**Author:** ![toilofday](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/toilofday/32/371_2.png) [@toilofday](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/toilofday)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 1:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/65 "2007-04-07T01:44:51Z")
The pilot canceled on us due to wind and somebody took the keys with them. ☹ It worked out just fine though. I got a kiss close at the end of the date and she had a great time as did I. We are rescheduling the flight as neither of us have flown in a plane. There are definately going to be more dates to follow.😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 p.s. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 2:58am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/66 "2007-04-07T02:58:11Z")
> [@Lor](#): > > … > > this is in fact the kind of guy that if i knew he was dating other people,i would try harder > > [http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/love0084.gif](http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/love0084.gif) Lor, just in case it’s not clear, I am dating other people. So please, do try harder, I promise to notice…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/67 "2007-04-07T03:06:55Z")
> [@steveo](#): > > The funny thing though MarkL, many women who posted on this subject wouldn’t give you the chance, or a second date to show how suave you are. They said themselves that if you didn’t pay for the first date, there would be no second date. > > Not to worry though, for me it would never get as far as a first date. umm steveo, i read markl’s post several times, i didnt _see_ where he said he wouldnt pay for a first date? i think he said it _ought not to be a dinner date_, but again, maybe you are seeing something i am not? i hate to say it, but since the women who responded are every shade in the rainbow as far as married/not ,children/not ,age all over the place ,in school/not in school … i think its a _bizarre_ assumption to say that they would never date markl … really _weird_ that you would state that. i dont know how it was supposed to come across, but im guessing markl does _aight wit da ladies_ … he certainly comes across that way to me without having to state it…ever…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/68 "2007-04-07T03:29:19Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > Lor, just in case it’s not clear, I am dating other people. So please, do try harder, I promise to notice…😉 mark mark mark … i thought i was being a little forward with the letters and the photographs i sent you, [http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/love0084.gif](http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/love0084.gif) , but if a dedication over the radio gets me points i’ll give that a try … ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/71 "2007-04-07T03:37:09Z")
I wouldn’t make a blanket statement that “he should pay for the first date.” IF you plan a more outside-the-lines date with no cost involved, that’s great, not a problem in my book. It’s not about spending money, it’s about creating an experience that you share. IF the date involves a meal in a restaurant, going dutch on the first date might not come off so well, though - with the exception of certain subcultures, as mentioned. For our first date, my husband made dinner for us. A man feeding a woman has a certain primal appeal that can’t be denied. I think it’s safe to say no interview took place, lol 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/72 "2007-04-07T03:39:25Z")
forum’s still having that moderator approval glitch - eating my posts! ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/73 "2007-04-07T03:39:52Z")
duplicate post ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:40am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/74 "2007-04-07T03:40:55Z")
duplicate post ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:41am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/75 "2007-04-07T03:41:21Z")
For our first date, my husband made dinner for us. A man feeding a woman has a certain primal appeal that can’t be denied. I think it’s safe to say no interview took place, lol 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/76 "2007-04-07T03:42:15Z")
short paragraphs seem to be going through (thanks steveo for the tip) ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 3:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/77 "2007-04-07T03:44:32Z")
Steveo, I truly know the point you are making, and I understand, and agree (within limits.) Here’s how I resolve this issue, and perhaps some of the women who’ve indicated disagreement will comment: - If we are going to do something together, we share the cost of what we are doing / each pay our own way. I don’t call this a ‘date’ … I call this “doing something together.” - If I invite you to do something, to be my guest, I pay and treat you as my guest. And if you are host/hostess and invite me, I am your guest. I will typically call this a date. Why? If I invite you to dinner at my house, I don’t ask you to pay for half of the groceries and wine. Why should I feel free to ask you to pay half if I choose to have the meal cooked for me and served at a restaurant? I think that the point you are making is that when a woman **expects a man to pursue her, and to pre-emptively demonstrate** his ability to pay, to be chivalrous, etc. etc. … well, it works out to putting a woman on a pedestal and cheapening your own value, and that’s not a game that either one of us is willing to play. I fully agree with you on that. If a woman insists on that game, it’s not going to be with me. It’s not that I consider that game “bad” … I just have different values and interests. And it’s okay that many women have values and interests that don’t jive with mine / yours. There’s not much point in trying to “teach” them or point out what they’re trading off, though. Last week, a delightful young lady … 23? 25? … mentioned shopping at Whole Foods Market (a very upscale organic and natural foods emporium … from Portland to Notting Hill) and after some conversation, we had plans to go there together. Not a date. This was our first “two of us alone activity” though. Better, in many ways, than a date. And completely unexpected – thank you [Instant Shine](https://a314.com/product/shine/)! ---
**Author:** ![HotMama](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/hotmama/32/1786_2.png) [@HotMama](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/HotMama)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 4:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/78 "2007-04-07T04:23:36Z")
Ok, let’s put it this way.. Do we ladies consciously, or subconsciously, connect the fact that when a man pays for dinner, he is showing that he is able/willing to take care of us and our “future” family? It’s really NOT about the money, and NOT about being pursued necessarily, it’s about that unspoken song and dance that men and women have engaged in for ions.. And, it certainly is not for being put on a pedestal for me.. maybe for some. And for goodness sakes, it’s not about a free meal either.. Maybe about a free drink 😉 or two ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 6:21am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/79 "2007-04-07T06:21:37Z")
> [@HotMama](#): > > Ok, let’s put it this way.. > > Do we ladies consciously, or subconsciously, connect the fact that when a man pays for dinner, he is showing that he is able/willing to take care of us and our “future” family? > > It’s really NOT about the money, and NOT about being pursued necessarily, it’s about that unspoken song and dance that men and women have engaged in for ions.. > > And, it certainly is not for being put on a pedestal for me.. maybe for some. > > And for goodness sakes, it’s not about a free meal either.. > > Maybe about a free drink 😉 or two I understand, HotMama, but not everyone wants to get married and care for a “future family.” And – even if they DO want that, they might prefer finding a mate from among their friends. While I might be willing to demonstrate my “provider” capability to friends that **I** am interested in establishing a family with, that does not mean that I am willing to do the good provider dance with everyone who might be a friend. Demanding the good provider dance first, in my mind, puts the cart before the horse. And as someone who already has a family, I understand that I’m not interesting to many women as a potential mate – my provider capacity is already mostly dedicated. If you’re only interested in “that guy I can marry” then I can see having your priorities as you state them. But that approach will “include me out” … nothing wrong with having that priority, just not my values/interests. PS: I will say that “provider dance” issues – money issues in general – are big stresses to any interdependent relationship. My wife’s parents wouldn’t (“couldn’t”) afford to pay for her college costs … but they routinely spent $30,000 to $50,000 a year for Christmas! (Just the Christmas dinner for SIX ran $2,400.) Can you imagine what hell that plays with a person’s sense of financial reality? How much better if a couple establishes a friendship on “personal responsibility” financial footing first … solidly grounded in financial reality as equals, and only then become a family where one person may have greater or lesser duty to provide? (My younger brother divorced not too long after his wife was promoted to VP and began making a greater income … a shame, because they were good together.) /end ramble … ---
**Author:** ![toilofday](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/toilofday/32/371_2.png) [@toilofday](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/toilofday)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 6:55am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/80 "2007-04-07T06:55:20Z")
> [@Carrie](#): > > For our first date, my husband made dinner for us. A man feeding a woman has a certain primal appeal that can’t be denied. I think it’s safe to say no interview took place, lol 😃 I’m a fantastic cook and have tried this method more than once and seem to get negative results. It’s as if the girl thinks i’m trying to hard. I love to cook and when I make an effor (even a small effort) I prepare a 3 course gormet meal. I won’t cook anything that isn’t worth paying top dollar for. It may cost 5 dollars to 30 dollars a plate for ingredients, but it’s always top quality. Was the food good, or was the food fantastic. Perhaps my cooking experience is giving me a DLV because it looks like I’m trying to hard. ---
**Author:** ![toilofday](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/toilofday/32/371_2.png) [@toilofday](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/toilofday)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 7:13am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/81 "2007-04-07T07:13:28Z")
> [@HotMama](#): > > Ok, let’s put it this way.. > > Do we ladies consciously, or subconsciously, connect the fact that when a man pays for dinner, he is showing that he is able/willing to take care of us and our “future” family? > > It’s really NOT about the money, and NOT about being pursued necessarily, it’s about that unspoken song and dance that men and women have engaged in for ions.. > > And, it certainly is not for being put on a pedestal for me.. maybe for some. > > And for goodness sakes, it’s not about a free meal either.. > > Maybe about a free drink 😉 or two Hot Mama, Unfortunately there are to many girls out there than want a free meal and drinks. They will go on a date even if they aren’t interested just to make the agressor happy and get a free meal. I’ve heard it from almost all of my female friends. It makes sence that a female is subconsiously looking for somebody to support a family and therefore should pay, but many times the guy is taken advantage off. Look at the bar atmosphere for example. I have female friends who go out and find guys who will guy them their firs couple drinks just because they know they can get free drinks. There was girl tonight who called me rude because I joking asked if she was going to buy me a shot. According to her, it’s rude because she has breasts, and that gives her leverage to get what she wants. This is what my age group seems to express. Femanimity = Power. Having tits = power. haveing a vagina = power. The modern female seems to have an ego trip about her own sexuality and independance. If you don’t buy drinks/meal/everything then you suck. If you do buy everything then you are weak. The solution lies in the ability to grasp attention without placing yourself in a finincail obligation. I’ve very recently come to this conclusion, and it seems to fit. I won’t buy drinks for girls because I shouldn’t have to pay for their attention. I’ll pay for dinner if invite sombody out, but if they insist on paying I won’t refuse, because the want to show their independance and lack of need for being provided for. Many females I know don’t like the idea of needing a man to take care of them and insist on paying. Every time I have ignored that and payed anyway I have put myself in a negative position. I seem like i’m trying to dominate their positoin which is more negative then only paying your part of the bill without a second though of paying for the female. The modern female seems to want to be treated just like a man, which is obserd because there a distinct emotional and physiological differences. I agree that thing such as pay, professional acceptance, status in every day environments should be upheld; but there is no way that men and women will ever fall on the same playing grounds. In reference to “same playing grounds” i’m not refering to status. I do believe the men and women should be treated equaly in terms of status, but to put both genders on the same playing field would be like trying to play football on a baseball field. It’s impossible. The current gender mindset is an overcompensation for years of degredation and hopefuly will soon re-regulate it’s self back down to the normal situations where normal evelutionaly cues are accepted as opposed to being seen as discrimination. Excuse the spelling please. I don’t feel like spell checking this post. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2007, 7:38am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867/82 "2007-04-07T07:38:35Z")
> [@toilofday](#): > > I’m a fantastic cook and have tried this method more than once and seem to get negative results. It’s as if the girl thinks i’m trying to hard. I love to cook and when I make an effor (even a small effort) I prepare a 3 course gormet meal. I won’t cook anything that isn’t worth paying top dollar for. It may cost 5 dollars to 30 dollars a plate for ingredients, but it’s always top quality. > > Was the food good, or was the food fantastic. Perhaps my cooking experience is giving me a DLV because it looks like I’m trying to hard. Hmmm … if you feel you are trying too hard, or if you are worried about being perceived as trying too hard, then it’s probably going to produce a negative reaction one way or another. You have an educated palate, food knowledge, and cooking experience … I can tell it’s a strength for you. You might even be a bit of a food snob. All right. But if any of that gets tangled with you feeling less than good about yourself, then it gets painted with the “low self-esteem wash”. In such a case any food you cook gets a sauce of “trying to prove self-worth”, like it or not. Which is definitely going to ring of trying too hard. I you cook a great meal for yourself and enjoy it, great. If you cook a great meal and she enjoys it … even without knowing just how gourmet it is … great. If either of you are self-conscious about the meal … try something different, right? Regrets the flight was delayed, but glad for the prospects being undimmed … [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867.md?page=3) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/first-date-to-pay-or-not-to-pay/2867.md?page=5)