# friends zone **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532 "2010-04-05T22:16:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![the\_muffin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@the\_muffin\_man](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/the_muffin_man)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/1 "2010-04-05T22:16:17Z")
hey so lately i am trying to make something happen with this girl that i am very clearly in the friends zone in order to do this i will be trying a few combinations and will be reporting the results as often as i can i know this a popular topic so tune in to my journal to follow along on how my progress and maybe something that gets hits for me might work for you too šŸ™‚ > [@Muffin Man's Journal](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/muffin-mans-journal/37000): > > Ok so i am very new to the [pheromone](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) world but was brought into it by a very good friend of mine so willing to see where this journey leads I am going to state for the record that I am as of now a skeptic, but as an open minded person willing to give it a shot.I did notice one thing though as soon as I placed the order for mones i automatically became more confident in general, perhap cause i was taking a step towards solving a problem. Ok now to get down to it. Day 1: I am a male in my early ā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![K-Train](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/k-train/32/2253_2.png) [@K-Train](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/K-Train)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/2 "2010-04-05T22:32:26Z")
> [@the\_muffin\_man](#): > > hey so lately i am trying to make something happen with this girl that i am very clearly in the friends zone in order to do this i will be trying a few combinations and will be reporting the results as often as i can > i know this a popular topic so tune in to my journal to follow along on how my progress and maybe something that gets hits for me might work for you too šŸ™‚ > > [Muffin Man's Journal](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/muffin-mans-journal/37000) Iā€™ll be following this. I had a similar situation last semester in college but managed to work my way out and get in a relationship with the girl. I used many different products but A314 was usually my main product. I wish you the best of luck man.šŸ†’ Oh and one more thing, check out falcos thread titled ā€œA1 + IH = Feelings rusherā€. It talks about the same dilemna but he also used [Instant Honesty](https://a314.com/product/instant-honesty/) _and_ A1 so I recommend you get some A1 to help you out.šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![the\_muffin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@the\_muffin\_man](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/the_muffin_man)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/3 "2010-04-05T22:36:01Z")
yeah maybe when they bring it back in stock ill get someā€¦haha i hate when really good products are constantly out of stock ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![Gegogi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gegogi/32/1536_2.png) [@Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/4 "2010-04-06T00:44:33Z")
I prefer being friends first. At least you know what youā€™re getting into. And a friend into a lover it a lot more fun to hang with and travel since you have friendship and lifestyle in common. Just keep a little sexual tension in the friendship so she doesnā€™t think youā€™re gay or a dickless eunuch. ---
**Author:** ![empath](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/empath/32/2351_2.png) [@empath](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/empath)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/5 "2010-09-16T16:25:37Z")
> [@Gegogi](#): > > Just keep a little sexual tension in the friendship so she doesnā€™t think youā€™re gay or a dickless eunuch. hahahhaa, I love this response. Iā€™m in a similar situationā€¦ There has ALWAYS been sexual tension between usā€¦ Iā€™m a strong tall alpha and sheā€™s a TIIIIINY alpha girlā€¦ Weā€™re great friends but thereā€™s always been more between usā€¦ she is veryā€¦ particular thoughā€¦ Iā€™ve always kept the sexual tension there suavelyā€¦ Weā€™ve been getting a bit closer this week so who knows. I have been using A314, IH and A1 as wellā€¦ without reading these posts, so thatā€™s cool knowing Iā€™m getting a knack for knowing what I should wear around certain people in certain situations. ---
**Author:** ![mobocaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mobocaster](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mobocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/6 "2010-09-16T17:30:56Z")
I found [MX297](https://a314.com/product/mx297/) & TUTH pretty useful in turning two friends into pretty regular partners recently. Iā€™d done a lot behaviour/presentation/body language-wise as well of course but those two pheros & particularly MX297 seemed to be the last piece of the jigsaw. šŸ™‚ There was a little straight Androstenone involved too but borh these women were older - late 30s & that only went-on at the close-moment, after TUTH/297 & I had done the real work. ---
**Author:** ![mobocaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mobocaster](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mobocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/7 "2010-09-18T01:31:16Z")
If it is any help, MX301 plus P83 brought me some massive IOIā€™s and very significant signs of arousal from a good female friend tonight. So much so that I think it scared even her and she ended-up moving to the other side of the (fairly small) room but still talked constantly to me from there. As well as the variety of IOIs, the strong flushing round her neck and upper chest was very obvious and it settled down again when she got some distance. Which was fine as I really donā€™t have any sexual interest in this woman, however, she more or less monopolised me for the whole evening. Details: MX301 - one spray to each forearm. P83, 10Mcg in [Akuto](https://a314.com/product-category/scented/akuto/) - one spray to each forearm and one spray to chest. Cologne - Armani Code (Original non-NPAā€™d version) Secondary effects were on two male fiends who both talked far more freely/animatedly than normal and sat/stood really close. The behaviour change in my Thai/Japanese pal was most obvious - I have never seen him so relaxed and freely informal! šŸ™‚ After that, I wandered into town for a coffee and stopped at an autobank on the way. The two (hot!) women (late 20s/mid-30s) in the queue behind me ended-up moving close and one of them struck-up a really silly conversation when she caught sight of my red hanky. The other just sort of stared at me, smiling, giggling and fiddling with herself - Skirt (V-short!) Shoe straps - exposing plenty of nicely toned leg, top - exposing plenty cleavage! I bid them a good night and headed-on (no, they didnā€™t get my pin number!). šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/8 "2010-09-18T03:18:05Z")
Like Gegogi I enjoy having female friends. The difference (and problem) with genuine female friends and the ā€œfriend zoneā€ is that being friend zoned is rarely mutual and often exploitative. And once youā€™re there, getting out is very difficult. Sometimes to the point of having to drop your pants and saying ā€œas you can see, I do not have a vagina so do not think Iā€™m one of your girlfriendsā€. To avoid/get out of the friend zone I have certain rules I force myself to stick to, particularly if itā€™s a woman I find attractive and might consider for something serious in the future. Now bear in mind, Iā€™m very unattached to outcomes and I donā€™t pine or lament ā€œthe ones that got awayā€. So be aware that my rules have about an equal chance of getting the woman to leave altogether as much as turning her from friend to lover. Rule #1.) I am not an emotional tampon. In the course of the friendship I will give a shoulder to cry on over the jerk youā€™re fucking one time and one time only. I will offer my advice and if itā€™s ignored and at a later date youā€™re crying over the same guy for the same thing I will be unable to hear you over the sound of my balls producing awesomeness. Rule #2.) Friends help friends get laid, my guy buddies wing for me and so shall you. If you have no interest in fucking me, youā€™ll introduce me to a girlfriend of yours that will. Likewise I have no problem hooking you up with one of my wingmen. Rule #3.) Friends watch each others back, if I see you getting attacked by a man or woman I promise, Iā€™ll haul off and break somebodies jaw or get my ass kicked right beside you same as I would for any guy friendā€¦be prepared to show the same level of loyalty. Rule #4.) Friendship has no dollar value, unless itā€™s always one sided. If youā€™re strapped for cash Iā€™ll front you whatever I can afford, same as I would for a buddyā€¦but Iā€™ve had buddies that were ALWAYS broke and borrowing money yet never could afford to help me out when I hit a rough spot. If this becomes you, Iā€™ll cut you out of my life same I did to those deadbeats. Rule #5) Since weā€™re not fucking I am under no obligation to watch ANYTHING with Meg Ryanā€¦imposing a Julia Roberts movie on me deserves at least a hand job. Rule #6) Iā€™m a man, I see the world as it is, not as I think it should be. Bear that in mind when you want to vent to me about an argument or issue you have with somebody else. If I think youā€™re in the wrong, Iā€™ll tell youā€¦if you donā€™t like what I have to say, what are you gonna do? withhold sex?..youā€™re already doing that. Rule #7) I will tolerate no more than a 51/49 ratio for contributing to the relationship. Meaning if Iā€™m always the one calling you to go out clubbing or to a party etc. yet my phone never rings when youā€™re going outā€¦Iā€™m not your friend, Iā€™m your bitch and Iā€™m nobodies bitch. Rule #8) You know how much fun we have when we go shopping together? WE donā€™t. Iā€™m a guy, I fucking hate that shit. In all fairness if I have to endure shopping with you, then you are morally obligated to hang with me at the titty barā€¦if itā€™s shopping for shoes fuggetaboutit, weā€™re fucking. Rule #9) Iā€™m a guy so when you come up to me asking me to pretend to be your boyfriend or do something to get some guy to leave you alone after you let him buy you a drinkā€¦fuck off. Youā€™re a big girl and can buy your own booze, or just accept that anyone who pays for alcohol will want to be as close to it as possible which means that until you piss it out later heā€™s gonna be on you. Rule #10) If you call me up some friday saying that youā€™re bored and want to go shoot some poolā€¦and the first round of beers is on youā€¦then you get mad respect for that. And Iā€™ll even keep my mouth shut if you decide to play chick rock on the way there (singing along however is verbotten) Basically, just being a girl doesnā€™t mean you get to impose a girls definition of friendship on the relationship. Youā€™ll be held to guy standards as much as Iā€™ll be held to girl standards and youā€™ll endure guy stuff as often as I endure chick stuff for you. Most guy/girl ā€œfriendshipsā€ I see are basically dynamics where the guy removes his balls whenever the girl is around so as not to offend her with his masculine tendencies. Heā€™s basically a chick friend that happens to have a penis that she has no interest in. Iā€™d say applying these rulesā€¦2 of 10 actually accept the terms and become quite good friends. 3 of 10 wind up deciding they would rather be treated like a girlfriend and wind up dating meā€¦but admittedly a full half decide Iā€™m a jerk and leave my lifeā€¦and if their definition of friendship is getting me to accept and share all their girly likes while keeping my own interest in guy things locked away, then Iā€™m ok without them. ---
**Author:** ![MVKBUGATTI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MVKBUGATTI](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MVKBUGATTI)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/9 "2010-09-18T06:08:19Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > To avoid/get out of the friend zone I have certain rules I force myself to stick to, particularly if itā€™s a woman I find attractive and might consider for something serious in the future. Now bear in mind, Iā€™m very unattached to outcomes and I donā€™t pine or _lament_ ā€œthe ones that got awayā€. **Word** Of The **Day** : **lament** - **express sadness** to express grief or sorrow about something - **express regret** to express regret, annoyance, or disappointment about something - **work lamenting** death a song or poem of mourning ---
**Author:** ![ppHamelin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/pphamelin/32/758_2.png) [@ppHamelin](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ppHamelin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/10 "2010-09-18T06:50:52Z")
Try A314 + IH x ? (experiment) or Tuth or [Ammo](https://a314.com/product/ammo/) or Mx301 + IH. (Donā€™t combine them all). Your dosage mixture will likely to vary. But those mix will significantly make your job easier. Still - not magic bullet though, mones do not work that way, youā€™ll need to work on your skillz as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bolkie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bolkie/32/1056_2.png) [@Bolkie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bolkie)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/11 "2010-09-18T08:54:30Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > Rule #1.) I am not an emotional tampon. ā€¦ > > Rule #10) If you call me up I just printed out those Ten Commandments and put them on my refridgerator. Iā€™m not joking, they are up thereā€¦in **bold**. ---
**Author:** ![hoplessly](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/hoplessly/32/2319_2.png) [@hoplessly](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/hoplessly)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 9:06am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/12 "2010-09-18T09:06:19Z")
Wow Radman, Awesome eye opening post. ---
**Author:** ![millwark](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/millwark/32/560_2.png) [@millwark](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/millwark)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/13 "2010-09-18T09:17:45Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > I will offer my advice and if itā€™s ignored and at a later date youā€™re crying over the same guy for the same thing **I will be unable to hear you over the sound of my balls producing awesomeness.** > > Rule #7) I will tolerate no more than a 51/49 ratio for contributing to the relationship. Meaning if Iā€™m always the one calling you to go out clubbing or to a party etc. yet my phone never rings when youā€™re going outā€¦ **Iā€™m not your friend, Iā€™m your bitch and Iā€™m nobodies bitch.** And the awesome phrases of the day go toā€¦ šŸ˜ƒšŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![P51Mustang](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/p51mustang/32/1266_2.png) [@P51Mustang](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/P51Mustang)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/14 "2010-09-19T22:55:46Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > Like Gegogi I enjoy having female friends. The difference (and problem) with genuine female friends and the ā€œfriend zoneā€ is that being friend zoned is rarely mutual and often exploitative. And once youā€™re there, getting out is very difficult. Sometimes to the point of having to drop your pants and saying ā€œas you can see, I do not have a vagina so do not think Iā€™m one of your girlfriendsā€. > > To avoid/get out of the friend zone I have certain rules I force myself to stick to, particularly if itā€™s a woman I find attractive and might consider for something serious in the future. Now bear in mind, Iā€™m very unattached to outcomes and I donā€™t pine or lament ā€œthe ones that got awayā€. So be aware that my rules have about an equal chance of getting the woman to leave altogether as much as turning her from friend to lover. > > Rule #1.) I am not an emotional tampon. In the course of the friendship I will give a shoulder to cry on over the jerk youā€™re fucking one time and one time only. I will offer my advice and if itā€™s ignored and at a later date youā€™re crying over the same guy for the same thing I will be unable to hear you over the sound of my balls producing awesomeness. > > Rule #2.) Friends help friends get laid, my guy buddies wing for me and so shall you. If you have no interest in fucking me, youā€™ll introduce me to a girlfriend of yours that will. Likewise I have no problem hooking you up with one of my wingmen. > > Rule #3.) Friends watch each others back, if I see you getting attacked by a man or woman I promise, Iā€™ll haul off and break somebodies jaw or get my ass kicked right beside you same as I would for any guy friendā€¦be prepared to show the same level of loyalty. > > Rule #4.) Friendship has no dollar value, unless itā€™s always one sided. If youā€™re strapped for cash Iā€™ll front you whatever I can afford, same as I would for a buddyā€¦but Iā€™ve had buddies that were ALWAYS broke and borrowing money yet never could afford to help me out when I hit a rough spot. If this becomes you, Iā€™ll cut you out of my life same I did to those deadbeats. > > Rule #5) Since weā€™re not fucking I am under no obligation to watch ANYTHING with Meg Ryanā€¦imposing a Julia Roberts movie on me deserves at least a hand job. > > Rule #6) Iā€™m a man, I see the world as it is, not as I think it should be. Bear that in mind when you want to vent to me about an argument or issue you have with somebody else. If I think youā€™re in the wrong, Iā€™ll tell youā€¦if you donā€™t like what I have to say, what are you gonna do? withhold sex?..youā€™re already doing that. > > Rule #7) I will tolerate no more than a 51/49 ratio for contributing to the relationship. Meaning if Iā€™m always the one calling you to go out clubbing or to a party etc. yet my phone never rings when youā€™re going outā€¦Iā€™m not your friend, Iā€™m your bitch and Iā€™m nobodies bitch. > > Rule #8) You know how much fun we have when we go shopping together? WE donā€™t. Iā€™m a guy, I fucking hate that shit. In all fairness if I have to endure shopping with you, then you are morally obligated to hang with me at the titty barā€¦if itā€™s shopping for shoes fuggetaboutit, weā€™re fucking. > > Rule #9) Iā€™m a guy so when you come up to me asking me to pretend to be your boyfriend or do something to get some guy to leave you alone after you let him buy you a drinkā€¦fuck off. Youā€™re a big girl and can buy your own booze, or just accept that anyone who pays for alcohol will want to be as close to it as possible which means that until you piss it out later heā€™s gonna be on you. > > Rule #10) If you call me up some friday saying that youā€™re bored and want to go shoot some poolā€¦and the first round of beers is on youā€¦then you get mad respect for that. And Iā€™ll even keep my mouth shut if you decide to play chick rock on the way there (singing along however is verbotten) > > Basically, just being a girl doesnā€™t mean you get to impose a girls definition of friendship on the relationship. Youā€™ll be held to guy standards as much as Iā€™ll be held to girl standards and youā€™ll endure guy stuff as often as I endure chick stuff for you. Most guy/girl ā€œfriendshipsā€ I see are basically dynamics where the guy removes his balls whenever the girl is around so as not to offend her with his masculine tendencies. Heā€™s basically a chick friend that happens to have a penis that she has no interest in. Iā€™d say applying these rulesā€¦2 of 10 actually accept the terms and become quite good friends. 3 of 10 wind up deciding they would rather be treated like a girlfriend and wind up dating meā€¦but admittedly a full half decide Iā€™m a jerk and leave my lifeā€¦and if their definition of friendship is getting me to accept and share all their girly likes while keeping my own interest in guy things locked away, then Iā€™m ok without them. Good stuff Nominated. ---
**Author:** ![thundercat](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/thundercat/32/2345_2.png) [@thundercat](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/thundercat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/15 "2010-09-19T23:09:06Z")
Fucken spot on Radman! Nominated I love your blunt yet honest approach to the situation and it pretty much hits the spot dead on. The Muffin Man, The keyword in your s/n is **MAN.** Itā€™s time to bring that man out. Perhaps itā€™s time you upped your S&R value Heres afew protips (RSD) that have really helped me out, iā€™ve edited a few of the points to match upto your current situation ERADICATE this shit, and your game will go up B-I-G-T-I-M-E, more than ANY tactics will help you. This is part of whatā€™s called being a ā€œnaturalā€. Even with nothing else, if you know this stuff youā€™ll do well socially, and probably get laid. This stuff is the KEY. **1) FIDGETY MOVEMENTS AND TIGHT SHOULDERS AND TAKING YOURSELF TOO SERIOUSLY OR BEING TOO BUSINESSLIKE OR ā€œSOPHISTICATEDā€** (not laughing or being relaxed) = very visible subconsious (or conscious) self-doubt, overcompensating through non-relaxed state, where youā€™re prepared to deal with anything that could happen. Ever met someone who doesnā€™t blink when you talk to them? **2) TALKING TOO FAST** = worried that people will stop listening to you unless you get out something that will interest them before they leave **3) LAUGHING AT YOUR OWN JOKES** = covering up that you arenā€™t affected that others didnā€™t laugh, and social nervousness **4) SAYING ā€œRIGHTā€ OR ā€œYOU KNOWā€ AFTER STATEMENTS** = seeking validation that what you said was true, or saying it because others arenā€™t **5) STANDING WITH LEGS NOT HALF A METER APART AT LEAST** = worried that youā€™ll infringe on other peopleā€™s personal space **6) TALKING TOO SOFTLY OR LOUD** = fear that youā€™ll impose yourself on people and their personal space(ie: beta).. alpha males arenā€™t afraid to project their voice.. YET, talking obviously too LOUD can also be seen as OVERCOMPENSATING. Just like guys who wear GENERIC clothes are trying to fit in, or guys who wear OUTRAGEOUS clothes are trying too hard to overcompensate. (hint: be careful with peacocking, find a style that doesnā€™t come off this way, which can be tricky but is still very doable).. Some guys donā€™t talk, some talk too much, etc etc.. Find appropriate balance through trial and error, which is determined through social observation, **7) MOVING YOUR HANDS AROUND WHILE YOU TALK =** trying to keep the attention of the group (sometimes can be cool, but most often a form of qualifying yourself) **8) LEANING IN _or_ ā€˜PECKINGā€™** = too eager to talk.. NEVER lean in no matter how loud the environment is MAKE HER LEAN IN or just leave but NEVER lean in or ā€œpeckā€ as its also called. **9) FACING BODY/FEET TOWARDS HER BEFORE SHE EARNED IT** = trying to gain rapport with her too eagerly. **10) CHASING WHEN SHE WALKS AWAY =** hoping sheā€™ll listen. If a chick moves away from you, move your bodylanguage MORE away from her, so sheā€™ll be drawn back.. donā€™t CHASE herā€¦ WTF?!@?!? **11) NOT WITHDRAWING (backturns, etc) WHEN SHE DOES SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULDNā€™T TOLERATE FROM AN UGLY GIRL OR A GUY** = trying too hard to pick her up **12) ANSWERING QUESTIONS TOO QUICKLY/EARLY** = too much interest in the conversation **13) TURNING YOUR HEAD (OR ā€œSNAPPINGā€) WHEN YOUā€™RE ADDRESSED** = too eager to be in convo.. so if your head is facing the other direction, and a girl says something to you, turn it SLOWLY to her, donā€™t snap it out of eagerness to hear her **14) TOO EAGER TO PAY ATTENTION - SAYING ā€œwhat?ā€ IF YOU CANā€™T HEAR HER, PRIOR TO BEING IN RAPPORT** = too much interest in what sheā€™s saying.. if she mumbles, just STACK OPENERS into an entirely DIFFERENT topic, RATHER than saying ā€œwhat?ā€ This is fucking KEY KEY KEY. If you say ā€œwhat?ā€ youā€™ll lose her unless youā€™re already past attraction and into rapport. If this happens, just run a new opener and change the topic. 1- you donā€™t look too eager, 2- you look alpha for being disinterested in what sheā€™s talking about which helps anyway **15) REPLYING WITH OVERLY THOUGHT-OUT OF LOGICAL ANSWERS OR WITH OVERLY CLEAR/FORMAL PRONUNCIATION** = being concerned that you wonā€™t be accepted unless you convince really well (eg. HB: why did you ask me thatā€¦ RIGHT = Iā€™m talking. (sit and stare) WRONG = because I really need to know since Iā€™ve been thinking about this for a while.. the FIRST one conveys that you wonā€™t qualify yourself to her) **16) TAKING TOO MANY SENTENCES TO STATE AN IDEA THAT COULD BE STATED IN LESS SPACE** = qualifying yourself. Commander Zap emails me a few months ago: ā€œRemember TD, donā€™t write what you can say, donā€™t say what you can wink, donā€™t wink what you can smileā€ TIGHT. The shorter you can explain something in, the more PROFOUND youā€™ll appear. Why? Youā€™re not qualifying yourself. (ironically Iā€™m massively guilty of this, due to the fact that I post when Iā€™m really tired - see #21 to spot what was wrong with this last sentence) **17) BEING BOLD INSTEAD OF CONFIDENT** = that you know that you canā€™t pick her up, so you compensate with self-defeating actions so that the snub can be on ā€œyour termsā€. Saying ā€œIā€™m sexy right?ā€ or ā€œbaby I want some of thatā€ or even just approaching when the logistics are totally unrealistic is too eager, because a CONFIDENT person wouldnā€™t feel the NEED to say these kinds of things.. these things are symptoms of OVERCOMPENSATION for INSECURITIES.. which leads toā€¦ **18) OVERCOMPENSATING INSECURITIES** = fear of not being accepted. Have you ever met a janitor who the first thing he says is ā€œmoney is over-rated.. I would never get caught up in the corporate worldā€ blah blah.. if theyā€™d have just said ā€œIā€™m a janitorā€ and LEFT IT AT THAT we wouldnā€™t have even THOUGHT that anything was wrong with it.. but because they INSTANTLY start overcompensating, it comes off as overcompensating or qualifying. Same with if they BRING IT UP TOO EARLY. Like ā€œhey, Iā€™m Steve.. Iā€™m a janitor and I love itā€.. Theyā€™re TRYING to be cocky but it comes off as COMPENSATING. BE COMFORTABLE WITH YOURSELF. If youā€™re BALD, donā€™t say ā€œwould you love a bald man?ā€ as a pickup line. Itā€™s not COCKYā€¦ its BOLD. If youā€™re bad looking, donā€™t say ā€œdonā€™t you think Iā€™m sexyā€. Just be comfortable with yourself, and donā€™t bring up the issue at all. **19) OVERCOMPENSATING FAILURE OR SHORTCOMINGS** = fear of being judged.. if you do poorly on a presentation, or on a sarge in front of a wingman, or on a test, DO NOT SAY DUMB SHIT LIKE ā€œIā€™m really tiredā€. EVEN IF youā€™re ACTUALLY really tired, the mere act of saying ā€œIā€™m tiredā€ comes off as QUALIFYING yourself to the person. Just donā€™t bring it up. If you have shitty clothes on, donā€™t say ā€œI have nicer clothes at home.ā€ Just donā€™t bring it up. If you meet a girl when youā€™re dressed bad, donā€™t say ā€œI have the coolest club clothes at homeā€ Just donā€™t bring it up. **20) OVERLY REMEMBERING DETAILS ABOUT PAST CONVOS** = convo means too much to you, because the person has unusual value to you (ie: a hot chick). Of course, Iā€™m not advocating to be a total dick, but the general rule of thumb is that if you wouldnā€™t have remembered a FAT CHICK or a GUY saying it, then donā€™t remember the HB9 chick saying it. If some random dude said it and you would have remembered, then FINE. If you were in an unusually intimate convo thatā€™s also fine. But otherwise FAKE forgetting, even if sheā€™s a model and you remember every word. Even forget her name. If you see a random chick from your class or work, but you never talked to her, OPEN LIKE YOU DONā€™T KNOW HER. Donā€™t give into the temptation to say ā€œwe work togetherā€. Just open like a random chick, and maybe if you get snubbed then pull out that card to save face, but only as a LAST RESORT. \*\*21) OFFERING TOO MUCH ABOUT YOURSELF TOO _EARLY_ \*\*= too eager to make them like you.. subcategories of this are: A) Verbally: if you say to a chick ā€œyeah, I just got back from queenstown (or any cool place that would impress)ā€ or ā€œyeah, I just got my Rolex fixedā€, or ā€œyeah, my stripper ex-girlfriend told meā€¦ā€ then she PICKS UP on the fact that youā€™re trying too hard to impress her.. Same with NAME DROPPING.. DONā€™T GIVE GIRLS YOUR RESUME TOO EARLY.. Personality conveying routines should convey personality COVERTLY, so it looks like the story is just SO COOL that its WORTH TELLING on its own accord, and it just HAPPENS to have some good things about you in it. When offering good things about yourself, donā€™t offer boring details. Say it with less detail, and it seems less eager. INSINUATE THAT WHICH YOU ARE TEMPTED TO ELICIDATE (holy shit, I just made up that last catchy sentence, but Iā€™ve gotta say that Iā€™m the shit.. right?) B) Entertaining: If you have stuff like patterns, or the CUBE, or magic, or photos, or palmreading, and you do this EARLY, it comes off as TRY-HARD. Personally I donā€™t use any of these things, but alot of guys do, and when they bust them out prior to the chick EARNING it, it comes off TRY-HARD. Use the stuff LATER, but not right away. \*\*\*\*\*C) Wanting rapport with someone who didnā€™t earn it: WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT??? I swear to god, almost _EVERY_ guy I meet live in field does this shit, and its SUPER LAME. Going up to a chick and saying ā€œnice necklaceā€ or ā€œwhatā€™s your nameā€ or ā€œwhere did you get that?ā€ is FUCKING DORK SUPER LAME. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU CARE ABOUT THIS STUFF FROM A R-A-N-D-O-M PERSON? [http://www.wellingtonlair.com/community/Smileys/default/huh.gif](http://www.wellingtonlair.com/community/Smileys/default/huh.gif) ? The counter argument to this is that youā€™re not hiding your desires blah blah blah sheā€™s a hot girl and she should be happy that youā€™re approaching, but this is INTERNET RHETORIC.. and this approach is STILL hiding your desires behind the GUISE that youā€™re nice, so even if the rhetoric was true, it would STILL be ineffectiveā€¦ In the INTERNET ARMCHAIR GAME this stuff is FINE, but in the REAL FIELD GAME this shit screws you over before youā€™ve even started gaming. Itā€™s fucking bullshit, and NOBODY who isnā€™t very goodlooking or socially proofed (or whatever high value) PRIOR to going in, can make this kind of approach work consistently on HB8.5+ chicks. TRYING FOR RAPPORT TOO EARLY IS QUALIFYING YOURSELF TO HER BECAUSE SHE HAS NOT EARNED IT. D) Talking without feedback: When youā€™re talking to someone, and they donā€™t give feedback, and youā€™re talking and talking, you BETA YOURSELF. Itā€™s a DOWNWARD SPIRAL, where you start talking TOO MUCH, and you SENSE that youā€™re qualifying yourself, so you overcompensate EVEN MORE by TALKING and TALKING more and more.. Then you feel more and more betaā€™ed because you qualified yourself, and youā€™re left treading water, grabbing at ANYTHING that will impress the person, so you keep talking in hopes of saying that one thing that will impress them. AVOID this by not talking too much unless THEY give some feedback. IN THE FIELD you do this by PAUSING and FORCING them to fill in the awkward gaps. ---
**Author:** ![eyyyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@eyyyo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/eyyyo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/16 "2010-09-19T23:37:46Z")
TUTH + the right time and place + situational awareness = destruction of friend zone. good hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Morphious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce73a5/32.png) [@Morphious](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Morphious)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/17 "2010-09-27T18:40:23Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > To avoid/get out of the friend zone I have certain rules I force myself to stick to, particularly if itā€™s a woman I find attractive and might consider for something serious in the future. > > Rule #1.) I am not an emotional tamponā€¦Rule #10) If you call me up some friday saying that youā€™re bored and want to go shoot some poolā€¦ Awesome response & list!!! I thought I was the only one with rules for chicks šŸ™‚ I have similar rules but these are much better and added some more to my existing rules. Mind if I distribute to my wing men/women? HA HA Now, I do need some help with somethingā€¦ related to the original subject, which I will admit is the first time it happens to me. **Here are the stats:** **Ages:** Iā€™m 36, she is 26. **Used:** 2x A314 (Wrist/Jaw Line) 4x (maybe 5 because pump malfunctioned) TUTH (Sides of Neck, Upper Chest, and wrists) 5x IO (2 to Wrist, 1 to Neck, rest to hair) 2x IH (Hair) **Situation:** First Date I went on a first date yesterday with a girl that I am attracted to. Date went perfectly fine. We had a great time together, except when I kissed her goodbye that I got this strange vibe from her. She kissed me back (so I know it wasnā€™t just one sided), but it was a quick and not what I expected. She backed off shortly after a few seconds. We talked after the date and she indicated that I gave her this vibe because I reminded her for a friend she has, not only that, but my height (1inch shorter than her) was not a possible issue. I was totally pissed off to be honest (but she didnā€™t know..I kept calm). I never ran into such a thing before, because I have dated women who were taller than me (Iā€™m 5ā€™9, and dated 6ft beautiful women before). She did tell me she is attracted to me, and wants to see me again, because she didnā€™t like that she felt the ā€œfriend vibeā€ either. You think TUTH was too much? I thought I buffered it enough with haveing the IO and IH. Feedback welcome ---
**Author:** ![MVKBUGATTI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MVKBUGATTI](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MVKBUGATTI)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/18 "2010-09-27T19:38:08Z")
> [@Morphious](#): > > Awesome response & list!!! I thought I was the only one with rules for chicks šŸ™‚ I have similar rules but these are much better and added some more to my existing rules. Mind if I distribute to my wing men/women? HA HA > > Now, I do need some help with somethingā€¦ related to the original subject, which I will admit is the first time it happens to me. > > **Here are the stats:** > **Ages:** Iā€™m 36, she is 26. > **Used:** > 2x A314 (Wrist/Jaw Line) > 4x (maybe 5 because pump malfunctioned) TUTH (Sides of Neck, Upper Chest, and wrists) > 5x IO (2 to Wrist, 1 to Neck, rest to hair) > 2x IH (Hair) > > **Situation:** First Date > I went on a first date yesterday with a girl that I am attracted to. Date went perfectly fine. We had a great time together, except when I kissed her goodbye that I got this strange vibe from her. She kissed me back (so I know it wasnā€™t just one sided), but it was a quick and not what I expected. She backed off shortly after a few seconds. > > We talked after the date and she indicated that I gave her this vibe because I reminded her for a friend she has, not only that, but my height (1inch shorter than her) was not a possible issue. > > I was totally pissed off to be honest (but she didnā€™t know..I kept calm). I never ran into such a thing before, because I have dated women who were taller than me (Iā€™m 5ā€™9, and dated 6ft beautiful women before). > > She did tell me she is attracted to me, and wants to see me again, because she didnā€™t like that she felt the ā€œfriend vibeā€ either. > > You think TUTH was too much? I thought I buffered it enough with haveing the IO and IH. > > Feedback welcome The male weaknesses: hair, penis size, occupation, and height. Why would a lady want to highlight a guyā€™s vulnerablities? Maybe to dilute that testosterone with a subtle putdown. Itā€™s an method to slow down a man and get him to thinking and to pay attention to her. As men we do. Itā€™s part of the game. Remember remain calm, cool and confident. Why did you wear so much IO, Man. I could see why she couldā€™ve said just about anything. IO, can cause alot of chattiness. 4x -Turn of The Heat. Wow!!! Really? ---
**Author:** ![Morphious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce73a5/32.png) [@Morphious](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Morphious)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/19 "2010-09-27T19:45:51Z")
> [@MVKBUGATTI](#): > > The male weaknesses: hair, penis size, occupation, and height. Why would a lady want to highlight a guyā€™s vulnerablities? Maybe to dilute that testosterone with a subtle putdown. Itā€™s an method to slow down a man and get him to thinking and to pay attention to her. As men we do. Itā€™s part of the game. Remember remain calm, cool and confident. Possible!!! I didnā€™t let that put me down (although it did upset me that she was that stuck on the height thing). She did admit that her friends would think its STUPID to let me go over 1 inch, and she did admit that I posess all the qualities she seeks in a man. Now I will add, I did tell her to get over it because Iā€™m picky as well, and didnā€™t point out her imperfections that could be deal breakers. Any feedback on the pheros I used? ---
**Author:** ![Bolkie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bolkie/32/1056_2.png) [@Bolkie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bolkie)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532/20 "2010-09-27T19:59:16Z")
> [@MVKBUGATTI](#): > > The male weaknesses: hair, penis size, occupation, and height. Why would a lady want to highlight a guyā€™s vulnerablities? Maybe to dilute that testosterone with a subtle putdown. Itā€™s an method to slow down a man and get him to thinking and to pay attention to her. As men we do. Itā€™s part of the game. Remember remain calm, cool and confident. I never thought about it, but damn, I can relate to that list of ā€˜weaknessesā€™ ! Do all women ā€˜knowā€™ about that list? Are they educated about how to exploit this in their sisterhood? šŸ˜› Is there such a list for women, that men can actually use? [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/friends-zone/37532.md?page=2)