# Group Dynamics - Leaders by killswitch **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [September 13, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526 "2007-09-13T22:14:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/1 "2007-09-13T22:14:02Z")
this is an okay summary by killswitch- I suspect our forum gurus could come up with some enhancements… but something like this should come with A314 😉 [mASF Discussion Forum on Fast Seduction 101](http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/fs?action=9&boardid=2&read=70725&fid=23) Subject:Group Dynamics - LeadersJust thought I would post this idea I have been carrying around with me for awhile. Think about it, see if you can see what I mean in-field. For the purpose of this post, I am going to make a generalization - that everyone has a social role that they usually stick to. Now, in real life, you could have several, that you use in different social environments, but we are going to be taking just a slice of flesh and examining it here, so we’ll assume that everyone has just the one that they have at the moment. Well it works kinda like this: the way you learn to deal with the people around you depends on A)how they react to you and B)how you instinctively or intuitively react to them. From this you can form a least-amount-of-energy-and-least-amount-of-pain model, and this is what we call your personality for a given social group. A routine or role you choose that maximizes the efficiency of the energy you expend (higher validation to energy-expended ratio) and minimizes uncomfortable situations. This is also in essence your social role - for example, if you tend to be quiet, it’s because you’ve learned that speaking up is wasted energy/pain inducing. If you tend to be a class clown, it’s because you’ve learned that people will laugh at your jokes and that becomes your most efficient source of validation. Well what am I getting at here - basically that Leaders have routines they go through to ESTABLISH social vibes, social groups, even social roles. Think back to when you were quiet and shy, and try to picture yourself in a room full of people that had never met each other before, or in a new group in class, or in a new class, etc. More than likely you had one of two routines - either you sat back and watched and considered the group, made an opinion and waited to be asked about it, or you would find one other weak-looking person and start quietly making a little side-group where you would feel comfortable speaking. Eventually what would happen would be a feeling of being part of the group would come over you, (if you were shy this might have taken a long time) and eventually you would feel yourself in a well defined role and able to act freely in that role. Well, even if that wasn’t you.. here is what leaders do in new social environments - they create a social fabric. They tend to start the introductions, learning everyone’s name and asking them briefly about themselves, etc. Then once formal introductions are out of the way, they try to get some cohesion in the group - and they do this by trying to produce a common reaction or feeling in the group, something to tie them together. Example, they will define goals for the group (in the case of group work) and suggest getting started, perhaps highlighting work that needs to be done and either asking who wants to do it or gently delegating. Or, in more casual settings, they may start off with a joke or a humorous statement to create a relaxed atmosphere and try to get people laughing and chiming in. They way a group forms is sort of like a snowball - one person starts it off, and gradually more and more people join in. In the cases above, the person to start would start by considering goals and beginning work or by considering atmostphere and beginning to joke around. Have you ever been in a group with no leader? No-one that speaks up comfortably at the beginning? It usually ends up splintering, and you can literally see this happening - people start timidly talking to the person next to them about the most bland, low risk things possible, and there is no cohesive force. If you’ve ever worked in an environment like this you know that nothing gets done, and it can be extremely uncomfortable. Anyway, to reiterate, leaders CREATE cohesion in the group by first creating an atmosphere where everyone feels invited into the group (introduction, **EC** , handshake, etc) and then initiates behaviour and uses snowball effect to eventually reach everyone in the group. This is a very instinctual behviour pattern, and when it is done well the feeling of being in a group just kind of washes over you. But a natural leader is not usually concious of the group he is creating - he does it instinctually, but like everything I talk about, it is a very simple process with a very simple model. From the point of view of the leader, a group of people is simply a group of persons, each of whom he may feel differently about. They are either nuisances to be diminished or tools to be utilized, on sort of a scale from annoying to useful. He will act according to what he feels about these people. To members of the group, there is a real feeling of a GROUP, but to the leader there is usually more of a feeling of a bunch of separate people. Why? because the leader uses these people individually and in different ways. This is why he introduces himself to everyone right off the bat and finds out everyones name and makes them say a few sentences - he wants to flesh them out as soon as possible. (As an interesting side note, the best leaders are able to use that scale I mentioned above to motivate people to being useful - he does this through offering real validation for being useful and through ignoring/shutting out annoying or destructive behavior). You see it’s like every other personality - it’s just a less-energy-wasted-less-pain routine that he’s figured out - leaders lead not because they feel any sense of duty or needing to be leader, they lead because that’s just usually the easiest way they know of to get things done. (In fact, you will notice that natural leaders will often encourage other people to lead, and help them with it, so that they can relax their brains while knowing there is still someone in charge). So the leader will get an idea of everyone in the group, and find out what their social role is.. and then by treating them as being in the social roles they seem comfortable with he will have created the roles, and hence the group. And then he will quickly want to get on with being low energy again.. and in a work setting this will mean setting clear goals and making sure all the necessary tasks are being worked on by someone, in a social setting this means breaking the uncomfortable formality of politeness with a joke or observation so that other people can feel free to join in. Well there is a lot more I could write about the group, but some of it seems to be pointless, unless you were already the leader of a group and wanted to learn how to make it function more smoothly.. but I will save that for another time and another place. The main points were - **leaders create groups, they don’t just walk into an existing group and become leader.** (Side note - the leader will often choose an understudy, one that he validates in leadership-type activities, for several reasons - one is laziness, so he can stop thinking and let someone else run the group every now and then, the other is instinctual, something like passing the torch). What that means is, **in your current social setting, don’t try to lead if you aren’t the leader already, it won’t happen and will only cause yourself to become ejected. If you want to be a leader, go make your own group.** Other main point is **don’t wait for that feeling of being a part of a group, because that feeling means you are being led.. instead treat people as a means to an end. Don’t be inhumane with this, because that won’t work either.. rather remember that the group is the most comfortable thing for everyone, and use that as the ends. When I say use people as a means to an end I mean use them in their social roles they are comfortable with so that they can help create a feeling of a group. As in, provoke clowns to joke around, ask insightful questions of the quiter thoughtful ones, give second-tier leaders jobs to accomplish and assign them people to help them.** Examples of that last one - “hey Jim, we really need to get X done, what do you think? Yes I agree.. Well hey Marcia had some good ideas about that, (look at Marcia briefly), why don’t you see how far you can get with this, I’m sure Marcia would be willing to help you”. Edit - you’ll also notice that **when you are able to do this well, people who are comfortable with their social roles will INSTANTLY recognize you as a leader and will start supporting your position as leade** r.. this can mean chiming in on your behalf during struggles with people that seek to take the group in less productive or less socially comfortable directions. And I suppose I should mention somewhere here how exactly this relates to picking up.. well, basically, doing this will help you to pick up, take my word for it. Hope this has been somewhat coherent. [Killswitch Seduction](http://www.killswitchseduction.com) Posted: 11 Sep 2007 09:33 AM Originally Posted: 11 Sep 2007 09:17 AM [http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/images/button\_left.gif](http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/images/button_left.gif) [http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/images/icon-profile.gif](http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/fs?action=9&boardid=2&read=70784&fid=23#)[profile](http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/fs?action=9&boardid=2&read=70784&fid=23#) [http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/images/button\_right.gif](http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/images/button_right.gif) ---
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/2 "2007-09-13T22:41:32Z")
post below also by killswitch is overlong for the topic really, but quite clear and i think relevant for the question of behavioural congruency with phero use and how one should modulate phero signature over time. [AR](http://www.killswitchseduction.com/AR.html) There are two tools our brain uses to function. One is our intelligence, the thing that finds the quickest path from point A to point B, and the other is analysis. The intelligence takes the forces and factors at play and ‘problem solves’ for us. Before we can use our intelligence to GET from point A to point B, we have to be aware of the forces and factors, and we have to create a map: This is where our PASSIVE AWARENESS RADIUS (pAR) kicks in. We call it the “Passive Awareness Radius” because it is literally the scope of the things that we are passively aware of. What does “passively aware” mean? It means being aware of something almost in the back of your mind, without really thinking about it. What our pAR does is in the blink of an eye sizes up everything around us and makes a map. We see a chair, it goes in the pAR as ‘obstacle’ and as ‘sitting tool’. When we want to sit down, our intelligence takes the forces and factors and finds the quickest and best way to solve the problem.. it consults the pAR and we go to the chair without even thinking. If we want to walk across the room, our intelligence consults the pAR and we walk around the chair without even thinking. The pAR is the ‘map’. … The other part of the ‘analysis’ part of our brain is called the ACTIVE AWARENESS RADIUS, hereafter referred to simply as AR. If the Passive Awareness Radius is the map of things we’ve analysed in the blink of an eye, the Active Awareness Radius is the things that we are STILL ANALYSING. The things that AREN’T in the back of our heads, because they are things that we DO NOT KNOW IF AND HOW THEY WILL AFFECT US. The awareness radius is the ‘radar screen’, or in other words it is the scope of the things around us that we are actively keeping track of. For example, you’re at a friend’s house, and your friend shows you his new pet tarantula. Now, logically you SHOULD be thinking “I could crush this thing with pinky if I wanted” and “pet tarantulas are not poisonous”, but you’re not even thinking, you’re just paying attention to the tarantula. The tarantula is in your AR, because you’ve never seen one before and you don’t actually know first hand how they act.. you are hesitant to touch it and hesitant to look away from it. Wether you’re scared of it or just interested by it, you are more than anything else VERY AWARE of it. … This applies to us in every area of our social network. If we are socially weak, we pay attention to alot of people.. we wonder what they are thinking, we are constantly analysing them, trying to put them down as friend, neutral or foe in our pAR. We do this because we are very dependant socially, and how we come off to others matters to us a great deal. On the other hand, if we are socially strong, we don’t really pay attention to a lot of people, because we already know they are not a threat to our social standing. They, in essence, go on our pAR as ‘ignore’ unless we want something from them. … THE REASON THIS IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW - One of the first things people notice about someone when they are analyzing them, and we are very good at this, is the size of that person’s AR. (I think **basically what we want to know is "Who is going to be more reactive? Me, or this person?**"). We can tell by their body language, their tone of voice, the things they say, and most importantly THE WAY THEY REACT TO THINGS. Ever see a really jumpy guy, that turns his head every time something makes a sound, and think to yourself “This guy is scared of something!”? We are instinctively able to recognize someone else’s AR (read ijjji’s experiments with a cat). NOW DOWN TO THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT FROM THIS WHOLE THING - **People assume strength and value when they see you have a small AR. How do we get them to see we have a small AR? We get inside THEIR AR, and stay there. How do we get in and stay in their AR? WE DO SOME INITIAL THING TO GET THEM TO NOTICE US, AND THEN WE AVOID BEING PUT IN THEIR pAR BY AVOIDING BEING PREDICTABLE OR READABLE.** Once we become predictable, they can put us in their pAR as whatever we’ve come off as, and they stop thinking about us. (The only time going into an pAR is good is when we are labeled ‘easy lay’ and they are horny.) **We want them to be paying attention to us and TRYING TO FIGURE US OUT unsuccessfully, and in doing so we want them to see that we have a SMALL AR.** As I said before, we are always trying to put things from our AR into our pAR.. when we persist in someone elses AR, they will try to get us out of it. They will try to label us as ‘ignore’ with a bitch shield (hoping we’ll leave), they will try to label us as ‘eager’ by being overflirtatious (hoping we’ll fall for it and become overflirtatious ourselves), they will try to label us as ‘weak’ with shit tests. THIS IS THE BASIS FOR BUILDING ATTRACTION - When we’ve broken through the labels, and remain in their AR long enough for them to conclude that we are strong and high value, we will become ‘potential mate’ (or ‘potential leader/role model’ for guys) and stay permanently in their AR. ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/3 "2007-09-14T00:09:32Z")
> [@PheroQuirk](#): > > NOW DOWN TO THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT FROM THIS WHOLE THING - **People assume strength and value when they see you have a small Androtics Pheromone Research. How do we get them to see we have a small AR? We get inside THEIR AR, and stay there. How do we get in and stay in their AR? WE DO SOME INITIAL THING TO GET THEM TO NOTICE US, AND THEN WE AVOID BEING PUT IN THEIR pAR BY AVOIDING BEING PREDICTABLE OR READABLE.** Once we become predictable, they can put us in their pAR as whatever we’ve come off as, and they stop thinking about us. (The only time going into an pAR is good is when we are labeled ‘easy lay’ and they are horny.) **We want them to be paying attention to us and TRYING TO FIGURE US OUT unsuccessfully, and in doing so we want them to see that we have a SMALL Androtics Pheromone Research.** As I said before, we are always trying to put things from our Androtics Pheromone Research into our pAR.. when we persist in someone elses AR, they will try to get us out of it. They will try to label us as ‘ignore’ with a bitch shield (hoping we’ll leave), they will try to label us as ‘eager’ by being overflirtatious (hoping we’ll fall for it and become overflirtatious ourselves), they will try to label us as ‘weak’ with shit tests. THIS IS THE BASIS FOR BUILDING ATTRACTION - When we’ve broken through the labels, and remain in their AR long enough for them to conclude that we are strong and high value, we will become ‘potential mate’ (or ‘potential leader/role model’ for guys) and stay permanently in their AR. HUH???😕 ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/4 "2007-09-14T01:02:24Z")
Yeah… convoluted, confusing, like pot smoking and social anthropology at the same time… I truly think these widespread homegrown NLP, PUA, social dynamics, Eriscksonian Bonermen, shifting social scene youngsters ARE on to something, might even emerge as the next real step in the moribund world of middle aged hippy trying to make a buck NLP land… eventually something interesting will come out of it… ---
**Author:** ![Savinien](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/savinien/32/1310_2.png) [@Savinien](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Savinien)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/5 "2007-09-14T01:13:56Z")
Maybe somebody can figure this junk out and post a 25 word summary? It makes sense, to me, only a few words at a time. Then, off down some obscure reference lane again. ---
**Author:** ![flaming](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/flaming/32/212_2.png) [@flaming](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/flaming)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/6 "2007-09-14T12:06:17Z")
The new franchises ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/7 "2007-09-14T13:20:07Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > HUH???😕 The abbreviation for Awareness Radius is getting auto-expanded into AR. ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:38pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/8 "2007-09-14T13:38:03Z")
Gives one a renewed appreciation for the intellectual rigors of graduate school… what would these young bucks be saying if they had a strong background in sociology, anthropology, social psychology, philosophy ? Basically, they’re social folklorists… and **PUA culture is a folklore culture** , based on storytelling, myths, men’s huts and sweatlodges, chipping arrowheads and speartips from flint blocks, damsels in distress, King Arthur on the african savannah… and yes, magic potions… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NancysBoy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/nancysboy/32/391_2.png) [@NancysBoy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/NancysBoy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/9 "2007-09-14T13:39:35Z")
Thanks Carrie! any thoughts on the other abbreviations, such as pAR? ---
**Author:** ![flaming](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/flaming/32/212_2.png) [@flaming](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/flaming)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/10 "2007-09-14T15:52:16Z")
Isn’t this Pua thinking directed at manipulating social dynamics. Anybody know much about body-language. The supposed advantage is the less reactive the body-language the higher status the person appears to other’s,eg; an open relaxed appearance communicates higher status whereas a defensive closed stance indicates fear and subjugation. They also suggest ploys like upon meeting someone new to take their hand and repeat the persons name. The catch is you cant really fake it 100% ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/11 "2007-09-14T16:25:59Z")
Social skills are… skills. So what does that tell us ? Skills require practice, and practice requires personal virtues like 1., Stamina, 2., Tolerance For Frustration 3. Curiosity, 4. Ability to accept and grow from criticism, 5. Realism about your present condition, 6. Excellent role models, examples, teachers, and learning materials, 7. a spirit of Kaizen or Continual Improvement, 8. Refusal to accept second rateness and mediocrity, 9. Taste, as in good taste in people, ideas, theories, environments… 10., Patience, 11., Appreciation for the unknown, the unexpected, the unscripted, 12., Humor, or you will die a horrible death and nobody will care, 13., a good set of Mirror Neurons, 14., Knowing the difference between Congruity and Incongruity, 15., getting that Escapism is a dead end and Escapist life strategies fundamentally don’t work, 16., watching 50% less television and reading 200% more than you used to, 17., Double checking the things you believe are facts, 18., Earning your generalizations, 19. The insight that the TCO, or total cost of ownership of anything is a lot more than the price tag, 20, Knowing how to live in such a way that you age half as fast as your peers do. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/12 "2007-09-14T16:29:15Z")
> [@NancysBoy](#): > > Thanks Carrie! any thoughts on the other abbreviations, such as pAR? the references are explained in the link PheroQuirk provided: [AR](http://www.killswitchseduction.com/AR.html) (the way the hyperlink appears also gets auto-expanded but never mind that, it’s still the correct link) ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/13 "2007-09-14T16:33:39Z")
> [@Carrie](#): > > The abbreviation for Awareness Radius is getting auto-expanded into Androtics Pheromone Research. Thanks, since it made absolutely no sense the other way. ---
**Author:** ![flaming](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/flaming/32/212_2.png) [@flaming](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/flaming)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/14 "2007-09-14T17:36:42Z")
ok so i read the article from the Fast Seduction boys I hate to say it but its right on the money.The philosopher Alain de botton’s book status anxiety makes the point that status is more desirable to people than money lol Hey don’t mention the WAR Yeah defiantly should come with A314 .HEY MAYBE THATS WHY A314 IS SO POPULAR ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/15 "2007-09-14T18:11:20Z")
There’s a strong implicit assumption of topdog-underdog dynamics in it… and it begs the question… on what basis is one person perceived as high value ? Their wealth, intelligence, celebrity, talent, beauty, what is it that provides them with this qualitative distinction ? Right ? So there is this belief about status uniformity… as if it is one undifferentiated thing… now, what happens if you have a gathering based on the significance of intellect, like a book party for a famous author that appeals to high intelligence people, and a beautiful celebrity walks in ? Alright, so you hace two status axes, status as brains and status as physical appearance… how does one status attractor interact with the other status attractor ? Erving Goffman “The Presentation Of Self In Everyday Life” did some nice analyses of complicated social dynamics…🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/phoenix/32/673_2.png) [@Phoenix](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/16 "2007-09-14T18:26:34Z")
> [@Carrie](#): > > The abbreviation for Awareness Radius is getting auto-expanded into Androtics Pheromone Research. It’s funny how it mutated the paragraph 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![flaming](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/flaming/32/212_2.png) [@flaming](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/flaming)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/group-dynamics-leaders-by-killswitch/5526/17 "2007-09-14T18:32:25Z")
Such a humorous situation that would be. Great post Tacitus had to smile just imagining it maybe the great intellect would eye off the great beauty it would be hilarious. Thanks for the tip ill check it out