# In response to Bella, regarding copulins **URL:** \ **Category:** Messages From Michael\ **Created:** [August 6, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353 "2009-08-06T08:13:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/24 "2009-08-15T10:25:13Z")
Ok, so, I did my best there to get her thinking sustainably about price. I do like to reward actual innovation. That’s how you see more of it. Heck, that’s the only way you see more of it. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 10:45am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/25 "2009-08-15T10:45:41Z")
Alright, so, in final… the last PM I sent, which I can still post if anyone wants me to, tries to identify where the breakdown in communication comes. I go into detail about specifics, but ultimately say that we seem to use two very different business metaphors – which may be impossible to really get around. I use the business as a playground metaphor, for instance, while she seems to use the business as a war metaphor. The latter of which is used by many companies, but it’s just not for me. (Microsoft under Ballmer uses business as a football game metaphors) I mention Jeff Smith, who goes into the use of these metaphors in some detail, hoping she’ll get some of his material and explore 'em. He’s a good business advisor, very good. This is like Apple vs. Microsoft, to me. Two very different approaches, and it’s hard to meet in the middle sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 10:46am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/26 "2009-08-15T10:46:15Z")
In any case, much to my surprise I then receive a certified letter on Friday from her, attempting to undo all goodwill I’ve extended thus far… including the use of this forum and our resources, some education I’ve given, as well sending along a scientific instrument, and a computer for both good will and her use in working with us (we often work together here by using the screen sharing and “theater” portion of iChat – an amazing collaborative tool, if there ever was one) I’ve been called “endlessly reasonable”, but that reasonability has to stop at some point. I only have so much time, and so many resources. Life is a finite thing. I must devote it carefully, and that means devoting it to people with similar ideas and ways of working. I appreciated your intelligence in some matters, Diane, but certainly not in this matter. You were relentlessly hostile to me after I simply asked you to simply use the MX system or state disclaimers more explicitly. Hostile for reasons I cannot identify. This is simply how we reduce spam here, and we cannot run a forum of this size without proper precedent. I also saw a thread here where you were overly aggressive with one of our more scientific users who had a very valid concern, and heard that you had sent the perfumer we had on the copulin topic some aggressive messages. While I did not see these with my own eyes yet, some of the messages you sent to me, as well as the ones you sent to a forum member I really enjoy, do seem to confirm that you are more than capable of such a thing. I sometimes don’t defend myself right away, but I WILL go out of my way to defend others. It’s easier for me to see and understand inappropriate behavior when it doesn’t involve me directly. Being assertive and headstrong is fine, but crossing over to being aggressive to our innocent members and business associates is not. Not now, not ever. I will always protect the innocent. I know darn right well I could be “leaving money on the table” here, but I’ll never put money before humanity. Ever. Money not earned as a side effect of being a positive sum in the world isn’t money worth making. You just can’t lure me with the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 10:57am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/27 "2009-08-15T10:57:31Z")
In closing, if there’s one thing I’ve never received from a friend before – or someone with positive intent of any kind – it’s a certified letter involving _anything_. You deliver those to people who wrong you, not do their very best to aid you. As far as I’m concerned, this topic is now closed and I don’t expect my time to be disrupted by this again. I’ve lost too much time, too much opportunity and too much emotional well being over this already – all at a time when I was already dealing with far too much. Aside from automated spambots, she is now the 4th real person to ever be banned on this site, out of over 14k users I’ve bent over backwards to be courteous and kind to over many years. (I think it’s 4th, anyway – might need to check to be 100% sure – but it’s awfully darn close) I’m writing about this publicly, since banning here is very uncommon. I want people to know that is not likely to happen to all too many others. A good-will based forum is run first and foremost on goodwill, and not just endless, micromanaging rules. I always talk things out first, and extend a hand. I wouldn’t be in the business of helping people if I didn’t like people. If anyone cares to check [theadminzone.com](http://theadminzone.com), you’ll see that we set some kind of record with the warmest treatment of guests. We use a very different guest metaphor and spam model than most sites. Our redefinition of the forum model to be more like a friendly house party, or the aisles of a grocery store you love, allows an unusual amount of freedom compared to most micromanaged forums. Also, much like Switzerland’s rehabilitation system, we prefer to remind people who are a little rude, that there are other people at the ends of the screen as our first line of defense against untoward behavior. That works surprisingly well, as indeed, most people are good and sort of just don’t remember that they are connecting with more than a machine. Anyway, this happened because every attempt at good will and general human kindness, ended up garnering a response that had nothing to do with what I wrote, or what I meant. To her final response to my attempts to communicate, I’m shocked, awed, and yes, very disappointed. All this, after every attempt is made to share what I know to aid in her efforts here, or even elsewhere. (and, again, I do offer the extensive PMs I sent for audit to trusted individuals with access to iChat – i.e., you’ll get to login as me, and see exactly what I see) ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/28 "2009-08-15T12:23:08Z")
I’m not saying she’s a bad person or anything. No one is without hope. However, there are some things that are beyond acceptable, even (or especially on) my playground. I don’t care what anybody has to offer, it doesn’t excuse certain behavior. I just won’t suck up to someone because of something they supposedly have. In fact, I stopped going to the best pizza place in town, because they were always needlessly rude to their clientele. I couldn’t stand to see them do that to people who didn’t deserve it. There’s no “get of humanity” or “get out of kindness” free card with me. I will not put money before humanity. To do so goes against the whole purpose of money, by going against the whole purpose of life. Everyone, please be kind to every person you can. Including strangers, including your loved ones, including little ones. Life is too long and too short to do anything but. Use kindness as your basis, as your precept or prerequisite, your center, your _requirement_ – and you’ll find great purpose and value in everything that flows from it. As an exercise that will drastically improve your life every moment from now forward, just zoom forward mentally to near the end of your life in your mind. From that point, look back and “remember” what was worth remembering. Now you have the blueprint. Now live your life in a way where you do more in the now that is worth remembering later on. That’s exactly how those 90 year old folks who still walk, smile and enjoy the flowers did once upon a time, whether they knew it or not. Good endings are made from good beginnings, with a lot of kindness and good will in the middle to stick it all together. ---
**Author:** ![xev](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/xev/32/1993_2.png) [@xev](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/xev)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/29 "2009-08-15T19:09:23Z")
so…I just want to make sure I understand. Diane has been banned from this forum because the two of you can’t reach an agreement regarding the marketing of her copulin formulation, and because she sent you a certified letter? ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353/30 "2009-08-16T23:12:18Z")
> [@xev](#): > > so…I just want to make sure I understand. Diane has been banned from this forum because the two of you can’t reach an agreement regarding the marketing of her copulin formulation, and because she sent you a certified letter? It does not appear you understand yet. She chose a supplier-vendor model, and in that model, there is no major contract with the typical supplier we buy from. A supplier provide us with an invoice for purchases, then we give them a basic NDA along with a check, wire transfer, or credit card number. What more do we possibly need? If you read one the two last PMs I sent to here, you can clearly see that I was trying to help her with how to quote me for product. I basically gave her a quick run down of what she’s learned at any high pricing course, all biased towards her wellness and sustainability, not the purchasers. The opposite way a business like Wal-Mart asks for pricing. I did a very positive thing for her, by asking her to come up with a sustainable price that would encourage her to develop more innovation. I cannot imagine most people being as kind as I’ve been, about anything. These good will acts garnered no response. No PMs, calls, nothing. I guess I would’ve gotten further if I went against my nature, acted like a business I do not respect, and said “yes, give them to me as cheap as possible, and then take 92% off that number”. This is what “corporate” Wal-Mart does now that it’s out of the hands of it’s much kinder and more reasonable founder, Sam Walton. This is not within my operating metaphor (and I’ll explain these later for people who don’t understand what this means). I will not deal with people who expect to be treated poorly, or that expect that someone has to lose. To me, that is not a functional or effective model of the world, and I’ve seen too many problems with that dynamic. This is simply a case of someone I highly trusted and respected, someone I tried my best to help and be an aid to, becoming unusually unstable and then combative when I simply asked them follow basic netiquette (net etiquette). Something as simple as asking your house guest to place a glass on a coaster, only the net variation of it. I did not deserve to be treated this way for simply asking someone to be respectful of our forum model, which mimics that of a house party or the aisles of a store like Trader Joes. If you read [theadminzone.com](http://theadminzone.com), you’ll see that I am an unusually gracious forum host. Nonetheless, I still basically believed in her – and expected that this situation would be corrected – at least until August 10, when I sent my last PM trying to correct. This was was responded to exclusively – on the very same day-- with a request I received on Friday to reverse good will to her. I did so. I complied. Understand that banning is fully congruent with the only request I’ve received from her. You ask me to reverse goodwill enough in enough ways, and eventually I get it through my thick head that I must question my original assumptions and comply with something else entirely. Initially I was shocked and awed by such a request, but there are also some other supporting things I learned on Friday that increased (or altered) my understanding of the situation. That is when my belief in her positive intent ended. End of story. I will respond later to concerns you expressed to Jasmin. Thank you for being generous with your feedback. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/in-response-to-bella-regarding-copulins/31353.md?page=1)