# Instant Shine may be key for Friend Zone. **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648 "2010-04-10T18:04:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![K-Train](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/k-train/32/2253_2.png) [@K-Train](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/K-Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/21 "2010-04-11T19:28:00Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > And my number one fan strikes again! > > lmao! I’ve dated Eastern European women before. In fact I usually prefer them to American women. They tend to respond a lot more to traditional masculinity more than American women. > > As for mindgames, sweety you know jack and shit, and your knowledge of jack is barely survey level. Fact I never lie to women. Any line or story I tell a woman is 100% true, and unlike a lot of men I never tell a woman I love her if I don’t. Fact I won’t even pursue sex with a woman if I have so much as the slightest concern about her feeling that there’s potential for more than there is. I’ve had plenty of women that I could have been with and didn’t simply because I knew they expected more from me than I was willing to give. I could easily have used and exploited that but I chose not to. > > Re: me being single, you give away more than you intend to with your insults. You see unlike a most women and a lot of men, I don’t define myself by my relationship status. You as a woman have obviously bought into the notion that getting a woman to marry him is how a man should measure himself. As a woman, get over yourself I don’t define my value or success by you. The question isn’t why haven’t I gotten married, the question is why haven’t any women been worth it for me yet? > > As for the PUA stuff, who should you be more mad at?, guys like me for using structured lines and routines that women like yourself claim “don’t work”, or the members of your own gender that prove that they really do work…night after night? Or better yet, be mad at the women that date abusive jerks one after the other while bemoaning their inability to find a “nice guy”…to a legitimate nice guy that’s nuts about them but is stuck in the friend zone because she doesn’t want to “risk ruining the friendship”. Or the women that advise guys to “just be yourself” when being yourself really means being shy and unassuming and totally ignored, we both know that the reason for advice like that isn’t for the benefit of the guy receiving it, it for the benefit of the women giving it, it allows the woman the luxury of convincing herself that she can’t be fooled by rehearsed lines or structured routines and that as a gender you’re so enlightened that as long as a guy is super nice and romantic and sincere that everything will fall into place. But that just ain’t so. > So be mad at those women, because every day somewhere one of them is creating a PUA…some of them might come at it with a very vindictive mentality and might actually enjoy breaking hearts. And some of them create a guy like me, that cuts through the bullshit, AVOIDS the mind games and is up front and honest about who he is and what he wants…you should hope that a mans broken heart results in the latter. My name is K-Train, and I approve of this message.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Olfact\_Amorous](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/olfact_amorous/32/434_2.png) [@Olfact\_Amorous](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Olfact_Amorous)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/22 "2010-04-11T19:38:16Z")
This thread really transformed into something totally irrelevant to the first post. To each is own really. I do realize where rad’s coming from though. I’ve learned the way women are and the only way I can be nice about it is that women simply aren’t that logical/rational when it comes to the matters of the heart. Women are only keen to what emotionally feels right. That is to say that we as men must focus on what women “respond” to not the romantic fantasies of novel’s or chic flicks. Women are simply predisposed to responding to certain aspects and qualities found portrayed as a result of PUA. I think the fact here is that women underneath it all “dont” know what they want consciously and try to supplicate us with vague notions such as to be confident and to be ourselves. My impression is that women want to be subdued emotionally and in some form or another PUA whether learned OJT style or from a seminar or from a book. We’re not blaming or trying to manipulate women inheritantly, you guys just happen to one of the biggest learning curves for quite a few of us. Example - My mother seems like the most rational pragmatic women alive. Somehow she married my father. Putting any good qualities away about him for the moment I would say my father was a dreamer, hot headed to the core, extremely argumentative, and verbally abusive. My mom always goes on and on saying how important it is to have money and that a man with money is the one that gets the girl. My mother is the one who brought home the bacon. My father never even brought home a “dime”. That being said my mother somehow put up with my dad for 7 years before finally divorcing him to protect me in a sense. She is the soul reason I don’t listen to women anymore. Women are incapable of giving men advice for getting at women. What women say they want and what they actually respond to are simply WORLDS apart in understanding. ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/23 "2010-04-11T20:07:08Z")
I apologize for derailing the topic, but it was a post of mine in this thread that caused the neg rep comment I received. That the person never pm’s me and gives away her anonymity is very telling but whatever. I mean no disrespect toward women, merely to empower men that feel helpless against a woman’s perceived genetic value. If my fan read more of my posts than the ones that touch on an issue with her she’d see that I’m far from a game player. I advised one poster AGAINST trying to rack up numbers of “conquests” simply to gain acceptance from other men. Another poster that I’ve been speaking to on pm and aim I advised against any form of lying or game playing and instead advised he focus on himself and sorting out his own life and evolving into the kind of man that a woman would NATURALLY find attractive. So I respond with some degree of anger when accused of playing mind games or manipulating women since in fact I go out of my way to make sure that any relationship whether for a night or a lifetime is one that both parties can feel good about with no regrets or feelings of resentment. But the generalizations are true, if they weren’t guys like Mystery, Vin Dicarlo, David Deangelo and the myriad of pickup guru’s saturating the scene today wouldn’t be able to make a living traveling across the country charging anywhere from a thousand to five thousand dollars a head for weekend boot camps, their DVD’s wouldn’t sell out at several hundred dollars a pop and Mystery would not have been approached by VH1 for not one but TWO seasons of his own reality show. The market is there for a reason, and I think it’s a safe bet that 90% of the guys that dropped anywhere from twenty bucks for Mystery’s book, to five grand for a weekend boot camp with him will agree with what I’ve said. Now getting back to the original topic, I feel that [Instant Shine](https://a314.com/product/shine/) as a product makes pretty much any product better. I’ve found it gives off an energy and charisma that makes rone products less intimidating and more inspirational, none products less sexually aggressive and more sexually attractive, nols go from people wanting to talk, to people wanting to talk to YOU. I haven’t experimented with A1 as of yet but I’d suspect the effect on comfort would be similar. It might not remove you from the friend zone, but it just might help keep in the “he has potential” category. ---
**Author:** ![CoolKat](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/coolkat/32/501_2.png) [@CoolKat](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/CoolKat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/24 "2010-04-11T20:24:48Z")
This PUA thing is becoming less and less effective these days, thanks to Mystery and Style going on TV and telling girls what it is. Yeah, I said it: Thanks for ruining it for many guys. I now learned how to APPLY similar CONCEPTS and do my best to be SUBTLE not to let females recgonize it.. For example. I saw this one dude tried to use a “time-constraint method” on this girl, and asked something similar to what Mystery Method would recommend - “Excuse me, my friend thinks going out with his buddies and kissing another girl when he has a girl friends… what do you think?” She recognized it quickly and said something like “Honey, your cookie-cutter PUA wanna be crap isn’t going to work on me? You’re so lame” 😮 Oh, man… Just saying… come up with your own stuff now… just recognize the concepts but don’t apply it EXACTLY… A lot more girls, esp those that watch MTV and other modern channels, know these kind of things that some “losers” apply on them now. Go with David DeAngelo as his method is somewhat tweaked and not blatantly recoognized by many females YET! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/25 "2010-04-11T20:41:14Z")
Most of those guys will take everything word for word, and yeah they’ll often directly quote stuff from the books and video’s. The key on that stuff to recognize the concepts, understand the reasons the concepts came about and build off of that. Hell on one ep of the Pickup Artist, one of the students used the “I have to get back to my friends in a minute” line, when the girl reminded him about his friends he was stuck and blown out because he was in fact, all alone in the club. This is why when I’ve given advice to guys that ask for it I explain that you could A.) make up some story about being a leader of men, OR B.) you can find some sort of activity or common interest with some guys and work your way into a leadership position. Then you don’t have to make up lines, or try and convince the girl. That value switch will take care of itself as she gets to know you. Likewise with almost every other value switch mentioned in the MM or it’s variants. I’m really not too worried about the PUA scene self destructing. The number of women that are even curious enough about it to study it in depth enough that they could recognize it are pretty few. Hell I once built attraction with a 3rd year psych major during a conversation where we were actually talking about pickup theories and techniques AS I WAS USING THEM ON HER! She actually laughed at herself with a sort of fun embarrassment when I pointed out exactly how everything I said about myself was lined up with what we discussing about pickup. I told her that in spite of that everything I said about myself was in fact true. So even after using the MM on a woman, while talking about pickup and asking her opinion about guys that use such techniques (she insisted that no intelligent woman would fall for it), and then showing her practically step by step how I had used the method on her, she agreed to go out with me later and we dated for a few weeks before we decided to move on. ---
**Author:** ![CoolKat](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/coolkat/32/501_2.png) [@CoolKat](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/CoolKat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/26 "2010-04-11T23:15:38Z")
Interestingly, I don’t even use any PUA , Venusian artist or whatever techniques or thoughts… Yet, I get enough girls … Plus, I have too many other things to do, and I don’t have time for games. If I see someone interested, I just go confidently and start talking about anything. Well, anything, but I start off by saying something that is related to a context, if you know what I mean 😉 For example, If she is drinking some tea, I go and ask how she likes it and then give my feedback and then go from there. If the girl shows me disinterest, I neg and JUST WALK AWAY. Sometimes, I run into them again, and when I talk to them, many are nicer and others just don’t care. I think I have enough girls interested in me, so if someone shows me disrespect or don’t want to talk I am not going to waste my or their time. I think my message gets across; some don’t dare to do that again. I think the biggest key to getting girls is having various options. Keep making friends with a lot of them first… if someone you think is cute is showing you disinterest, just move on KNOWING YOU have many options… Funny thing is that GIRLS CAN ACTUALLY SENSE IT… they just have this good intuition and know there is something good about some guys 😉 Having some options has made everything easier for me 😃 Don’t put everything into one basket! ---
**Author:** ![Gegogi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gegogi/32/1536_2.png) [@Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/27 "2010-04-12T01:33:06Z")
PUA is the state flower of Hawaii. Incidentally, most of the posts in this thread have zip to do with the topic at hand. Maybe we should close the topic so it doesn’t fuck up people’s forum searches. ---
**Author:** ![ZombielandMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c89c15/32.png) [@ZombielandMan](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ZombielandMan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 11:16am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/28 "2010-04-12T11:16:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Gegogi > My best lovers have been friends and I don’t like I start a relationship any other way. > [@seekingadvice](#): > > I respect that. You’re saying you would only start a relationship with someone who you truly feel for? To be honest, this is one of the major let-downs of all the PUA crap out there. Sorry to put it crudely, but the whole game of picking up and banging low self-esteem girls based on stupid crap tricks wore thin for me years ago. I don’t really have an ethical issue with it, but for me it just didn’t work and there had to be more. A relationship without feelings is like a plane without a tail fin … you might get it off the ground, but eventually it’ll crash and leave a nasty mess. ---
**Author:** ![falcos](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/falcos/32/1189_2.png) [@falcos](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/falcos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/29 "2010-04-12T13:07:25Z")
Men I really disagree with alot of what has been written here. First off, let us divide girls firends in 2 groups: 1 girls you know little time 2 girls you know long time And hell if its the same. With the first group you can really be friends before turning into anything else, but with later you will have a dammned time getting it into any kind of romance. There is nothing wrong into getting to know someones better before having something with her, like there is nothing wrong in one night stands, all depends of what you want, how your life is structured, what are your goals, your objectives, your ambitions. Being a old time friend, will give you THE DREADED FRIEND ZONE. while being recent friends, there is alot where you can play talk or say. Like if you have a old time friend and you always have been interested in her, your interest will be apparent, your rotines wont change, therefore her way of thinking around you will not also change. And what happens when she met that mysterios, hunk that is cultured and probably has a better job than you… (aka a better man than you) You will lose. And you will know he is a better man than you. Althoug if you think like this you will never win. So there is no better man. There is you, what are your dreams your aspirations, your long life goals, and you have to come before everyone else, because if you dont value yourself, shell never will. True that there are some people that look for a mate that will be their support while they are the main actors in life, but this is a hard job being the shadow. And there are really little amount of persons that want something like this. If you want someone, you have to fight for it, you have to be a man. TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, not by force, by strength of caracter. Only showing that you are in control, that she dosent own you, that you will not always be present, will she value yourself. Has for the recent friends, you can play any approach you want, because you are still undiscovered for her, but waist enough time not acting and you will lose your chance. And for the PUAs, it works, but life is not a game. I can have many girls, in any of my upbeat nights, and I will not use clever lines, or maybe even no lines at all. Just looking more confident than anyone else I can walk over some one, and strike a conversation out of thin air, like mones will not help you if you dont act like it. I am really true when I say you, I wouldnt need mones if I could feel confident all the time. I recomend PUA books to alot of people though. The sole reason, is that they work, and before everything a guy only can gain confident being reciving positive feedback from alot of girls or just by having sex. So I really think being friends before a relation is advisible, but being old freinds not, unless you are the one who has always been admired. ---
**Author:** ![ZombielandMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c89c15/32.png) [@ZombielandMan](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ZombielandMan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/30 "2010-04-12T13:54:19Z")
> [@falcos](#): > > I recomend PUA books to alot of people though. The sole reason, is that they work, and before everything a guy only can gain confident being reciving positive feedback from alot of girls or just by having sex. Again, like the self-effect from mones … it’s a confidence builder. Like I said, the issue I have with PUA is the numbers, stats, notches on bedposts, field reports, lay reports crap. ---
**Author:** ![Alphonse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Alphonse](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Alphonse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/31 "2010-04-12T15:14:52Z")
> [@seekingadvice](#): > > …If you aren’t there, they will miss you, though that’s not the point, they will realize you are a vital part of their life and make everything interesting. Just thought I would point it out, it’s possible this can even put you worse into the friend zone if the girl herself is just not at all interested, or just too stubborn, but it can be the other way around, I feel. In my experience, [Instant Shine](https://a314.com/product/shine/) projects a youthful, energetic vibe which can magnify one’s natural charisma somewhat. Of course, if you have the natural charisma of a worn sock, the only effect it will have on females around you is that they subconsciously realise that they experience a slight lift in mood around you. It is your own ability to project a sexual and magnetic aura that steers this pheromone into something that can promote attraction in your targets. If you lack this skill, then the likelihood is that you will attract lots of female emotional vampires who use your pheromonally enhances signature to make themselves feel better when they are low. I’m not sure why so many here and in the PUA world seem so against making female friends. They can be great, and they offer a perspective on life that cannot be gained from the company of men. The only caveat is that you should not attempt to become friends with someone for whom you have a chemical attraction in the hope that this will lead to a sexual relationship - because it will not happen without a degree of effort that is likely never worth the trouble. A. ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/32 "2010-04-13T03:15:19Z")
I never said I was against having female friends, I’m against getting “friend zoned” there’s a difference. I have plenty of female friends that actually pivot for me, introduce me to friends of theirs, help me get into clubs and parties etc. Being friend zoned is different, it rarely works out to be mutually beneficial as the relationship status is not the one that BOTH parties desire. One person wants a romantic and or sexual relationship the other wants a platonic one. If I’m not getting what I want in a relationship I move on. I can’t turn off the feelings I have, whether they be as shallow as pure wanton lust or as genuine a feeling of love and caring as you can get. The fact is that seeing a person regularly and knowing there’s a line I can’t cross is masochism. Some might think it’s a bit asshole-ish of me to cut a person out because they don’t want the same sort of relationship that I do. I’ve been told it’s unfair. What I find odd about that is that if you really stop and think, two people want two different things, yet one is given the power to determine how things will be and the other is expected to just accept it. Now with regard to womens bodies being involved I understand and respect their choice to to say “the line is here, and will not be crossed”. But understand and respect my choice to turn and walk away from the line. As a side note, I’ve had exactly four women in my life that expressed an interest in a romantic relationship and I wasn’t interested…in each circumstance I was polite, and discreet and suggested we just be friends. None of the four ever spoke to me again. So men are not the only ones that need to work on handling rejection. ---
**Author:** ![Alphonse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Alphonse](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Alphonse)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 10:14am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/33 "2010-04-13T10:14:04Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > I never said I was against having female friends, I’m against getting “friend zoned” there’s a difference. I have plenty of female friends that actually pivot for me, introduce me to friends of theirs, help me get into clubs and parties etc. > Being friend zoned is different, it rarely works out to be mutually beneficial as the relationship status is not the one that BOTH parties desire. One person wants a romantic and or sexual relationship the other wants a platonic one. If I’m not getting what I want in a relationship I move on. I can’t turn off the feelings I have, whether they be as shallow as pure wanton lust or as genuine a feeling of love and caring as you can get. The fact is that seeing a person regularly and knowing there’s a line I can’t cross is masochism. > Some might think it’s a bit asshole-ish of me to cut a person out because they don’t want the same sort of relationship that I do. I’ve been told it’s unfair. What I find odd about that is that if you really stop and think, two people want two different things, yet one is given the power to determine how things will be and the other is expected to just accept it. Now with regard to womens bodies being involved I understand and respect their choice to to say “the line is here, and will not be crossed”. But understand and respect my choice to turn and walk away from the line. > > As a side note, I’ve had exactly four women in my life that expressed an interest in a romantic relationship and I wasn’t interested…in each circumstance I was polite, and discreet and suggested we just be friends. None of the four ever spoke to me again. So men are not the only ones that need to work on handling rejection. If you read my post carefully, I am actually agreeing with you. Also, your “secret admirer” seems like the kind of passive-aggressive woman I’d never want as a either lover or as a friend. A. ---
**Author:** ![dsouza](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/dsouza/32/840_2.png) [@dsouza](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/dsouza)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/34 "2011-01-10T08:52:18Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > The problem I’ve run into is that once a woman defines you as a friend two things happen, first you might as well be a eunuch since she’s not likely to see you as a guy or as a sexual being. One guy bragged to me about how some girl that was “friends” with him let him in the changing room at a store while she was trying on outfits and how she was practically naked in front of her. Poor guy didn’t realize that basically meant her comfort level around him was such that he was “one of the girls” for all he knows she probably thought he was gay. This makes it difficult at best to ever get OUT of the friend zone. > What makes it even more difficult still is the fact that being in the friend zone basically beta’s you. She’ll classify some men as potential partners to satisfy her sexual needs, and likely choose some pretty substandard men since she has a safety net, her “guy friend” who will satisfy her other needs not the least of which will be her need for emotional comfort when the “bad boy” she’s been sleeping with breaks her heart. Then even financial needs, I’ve had women that KNEW I had feelings for them borrow money from me only to find out later that she lied about the reason and it was in fact to buy a birthday gift for a guy that cheated on her a month earlier. Same “friend” didn’t so much as call on my birthday. The relationship is too one sided when you get friend zoned by a woman you’re interested in. My rule is unless you bring something to the table besides drama, an unwillingness to take advice and an inability to learn from bad relationships…then my belief is that I have enough friends already thank you. Wow I couldn’t agree more. 😮 ---
**Author:** ![dtrain1218](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@dtrain1218](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/dtrain1218)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648/35 "2013-05-29T16:57:22Z")
> [@K-Train](#): > > My name is K-Train, and I approve of this message.🆒 Agreed!! It just seemed like that lady just created a standing date with her vibrator with those words [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/instant-shine-may-be-key-for-friend-zone/37648.md?page=1)