# Ladies, may I ask for your advice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Women's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [July 24, 2008, 10:06am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189 "2008-07-24T10:06:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2008, 9:03am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/41 "2008-08-01T09:03:20Z")
Post Script: Crash, burn, explosion, nuclear meltdown. Well, okay, not that bad, but I asked her out and got the “Sorry, I can’t make it. [Random friend] is [doing some random thing] this weekend and I already made plans.” This is the second time she’s used that excuse. The first time was when I suggested we try to get a group of people together to hit up the casino again a couple of weeks ago. There’s a lesson to be learned here… DON’T BE A FUCKING WUSS. Anyway… time to forget about this fish. Thanks again for the advice, everyone! -D4 ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/42 "2008-08-01T18:47:44Z")
Well, darlin’…to quote my dad-in-law once again…“Women are like buses…another one will be along in twenty minutes.” Get your tokens ready. 😉 Bella ---
**Author:** ![Takhisis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Takhisis](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Takhisis)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/43 "2008-08-01T21:04:24Z")
Data, I’m really sorry it didn’t go the way you planned but Bella’s right. There’s another one just around the corner that’s better for you 😉 The important thing is that you can do it again. You tried, it didn’t work out, the bottom didn’t fall out of the world and we still love ya 😃 ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/44 "2008-08-01T22:23:26Z")
Eh, well, I did completely botch up that so-called “heart to heart” talk. I guess despite what I thought, I’m still pretty gun shy. It’s kind of hard to think of yourself as desirable when you were dumped. Yeah, I’m a guy, and I should take it like a man and brush “the bitch” off (speaking of my ex), but… damn. Oh well… guess I’ll hit up my old haunt to create fodder for my apparently resurrected stripclub thread in the men’s forum. 😉 -D4 ---
**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/45 "2008-08-02T04:17:05Z")
> [@data4](#): > > Yeah, I’m a guy, and I should take it like a man and brush “the bitch” off (speaking of my ex), but… damn. > -D4 I sense alot of bitternes from you, Data. Sometimes things don’t work out the way we expected. That doesn’t mean anything in itself. These disappointments only have the meaning we give them. It is even possible to see this experience in a positive light (at least you tried, after all), if you look hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![Kitten](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/kitten/32/1051_2.png) [@Kitten](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Kitten)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/46 "2008-08-02T04:32:33Z")
Cmon now! That was a good first try. Consider it a warm up. If [pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) are as great as we think they are, they will give you the edge you need here. Wear your socials and get back out there! We are on your side here and _we all_ know you are great. XO Kitten ---
**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 8:20am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/47 "2008-08-02T08:20:39Z")
Damnit Data, you aint done yet! You’ve invested far to much time in this girl and there were definite signs of attraction coming from her. You can’t just blow it off YET! In sales the average sales person will be told no 7 times before getting a yes. I’m not saying that you should ask her out 5 more times, but I think you owe it to yourself AND TO HER to ask her out one more time. If she has another excuse for not being able to, I think you should ask her point blank if she has any interest in seeing you again, or if she’s just blowing you off. Chances are she’s not going to outright tell you that she is just trying to get rid of you, but at that point you can then throw it back on her to set a date. If she’s not willing to do so, then you have your answer. Remember, you have acted less than confident in yourself with her, and even after telling her that you were attracted to her (which I think was not a great move, although I missed the thread earlier and didn’t get the chance to say so. My apologies), you still did not ask her out. I think there’s a good chance that she’s testing you now to see if you really have moved on and if you are confident enough in yourself for her to be able to feel a connection with you. If you had taken the alpha role from the start and acted in a way that was in harmony with what you were feeling, then I’d say it’s over and you need to move on. But, you didn’t! You hid your feelings and built a wall around yourself, and probably confused the hell out of her. Now you’re trying to tear the wall down and were hoping that she would act like there never was a wall there, and she may very well have very well erected her own wall in trying to protect her heart. You may very well have to show and prove to her that there are no more barriers or walls, and you may also have to help her lower her wall too. You may well try to convice yourself that she’s not worth the effort, but I have heard you how you talk about her and I believe that if you dig down deep you really do feel that she is worth whatever it might take. Even then, it still might not work out, but as I said, I believe that you owe it to yuorself and to her to find out. My friend, I have been in your shoes, twice! And I’ll be the first to say that it sucks and that it can kill your self-worth and self-confidence! But I’ll also be the first to say that if I hadn’t been through those experiences/failure, I would not be the man I am today. ---
**Author:** ![denec](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/denec/32/1730_2.png) [@denec](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/denec)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/48 "2008-08-02T17:36:44Z")
hey data, there is a lot of great advice here already and i agree with everything said like Mark said don’t give up yet, I think you are almost there. Here is what I would do: actually go see her again face to face not call her up on the phone, I know you said your schedules are very tough, but when it comes to the first date you need a firm set day and time and you cannot do this over the phone. And then go meet her, and then ask her directly out, say your taking her to so..so this friday at 8 pm, and have a great night planned…take charge Good Luck ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/49 "2008-08-02T18:14:31Z")
> [@mark-in-dallas](#): > > Damnit Data, you aint done yet! You’ve invested far to much time in this girl and there were definite signs of attraction coming from her. You can’t just blow it off YET! > > In sales the average sales person will be told no 7 times before getting a yes. I’m not saying that you should ask her out 5 more times, but I think you owe it to yourself AND TO HER to ask her out one more time. If she has another excuse for not being able to, I think you should ask her point blank if she has any interest in seeing you again, or if she’s just blowing you off. Chances are she’s not going to outright tell you that she is just trying to get rid of you, but at that point you can then throw it back on her to set a date. If she’s not willing to do so, then you have your answer. > > You may well try to convice yourself that she’s not worth the effort, but I have heard you how you talk about her and I believe that if you dig down deep you really do feel that she is worth whatever it might take. Even then, it still might not work out, but as I said, I believe that you owe it to yuorself and to her to find out. QFT, ironically, I think sometimes we give up to easily on the people that are worth it, but chase people that aren’t worth it for too long and too hard. I agree that if you had been balls to the wall about it to begin with, it might have gone smoother, but if I was interested in this woman, I would think what Mark has suggested. "So she’s been busy the last couple weekends. Seems like I can’t make plans in the middle of the week, I need to plan a little earlier ahead. Okay, well what are the chances that she’s already set up plans for the weekend a week earlier? I would try and set up a definite date that day. I feel lucky that I’ve met one of the flakiest girls this year. Now I know how to deal with those kinds of girls. She’s the type where if you’re a couple minutes late, she’ll go off to do something else entirely, but she might never even show up if you’re waiting with no phone calls to notify you. Hell, I think sometimes it’s a shit-test. She’s mentioned a couple guys who pretend they’re leaving town soon so that they can pressure her into seeing them soon. Then she finds out he didn’t actually leave and she hates him. Sorry I’m getting sidetracked. All I’m saying is make efforts to make it happen, but do it in a manner that can’t be mistaken. It should be clear and bold, and if she tries to sidestep the issue, then she isn’t worth it, IMO. She should have enough respect for you to be able to tell you straight up that she doesn’t want to date you. Fuck my feelings getting hurt, I’d rather know I can rely on this person to give me an honest opinion. ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/50 "2008-08-03T04:33:36Z")
Well, if I do try again, I need to give it some time. Remember, most of our interactions-- hell, all of them, really-- have been at work. There are rules that I have to stay within the bounds of. God knows, I wouldn’t want to meet up with her at my old job and wind up with a complaint of harassment or anything. I don’t think she’d do that to me, but I don’t want to seem too pushy or needy. I did call her today, but got her voice mail. I left a message for her to give me a call back, but she never did. Maybe I should have called again, but I dunno… It’s a fine line to walk when you _really_ want to get with someone but don’t want your eagerness to push them away. -D4 ---
**Author:** ![Takhisis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Takhisis](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Takhisis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:44pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/51 "2008-08-03T12:44:36Z")
Data4, Mark is right, you can’t give up just yet. Give it another shot and give it your all, then you’ll have a definite answer. There’s nothing worse than not knowing. ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/52 "2008-08-04T22:30:26Z")
Okay, this is the last post I’m going to make in this thread and on this subject. The case is irrevocably closed. I won’t go into detail. No, I didn’t do anything stupid, but there is absolutely, 100% no chance of anything happening. At all. Period. Finis. -D4 ---
**Author:** ![phernoob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/phernoob/32/180_2.png) [@phernoob](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/phernoob)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 2:14am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/53 "2008-08-05T02:14:17Z")
Fuck. Why are all the best guys here? Data & all you other men here. Damn, reading your advice makes me realize that there are some really great, smart, attractive, sensitive men out there! Are the only good men wearing pheros? BTW - gotcha data - I get it about the end of the line. Been there livin it - like an hour later… ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/54 "2008-08-05T05:42:33Z")
Thanks, Phernoob… 🙂 I lied. THIS will be the last post I make on the subject and thread. Just so there’s no misconception that I’m letting fear and apprehension keep me from going after my dreams, I thought I’d tell you guys what happened. I emailed Sarah asking her if she’d be interested in getting together at any time in the future when neither one of us had plans, and she sent me back a simple, two word reply: “not interested” So… yeah, whether it was my fault for being a spineless dork, or if she was never interested in the first place, the fact is I’m considering this little chapter closed. It does suck. She was the first person I let myself grow emotionally attached to since my divorce, and the feeling is that I’ve taken 1 step forward and 2 steps back. I do want to thank everyone for their advice, as it means a lot to me. Unfortunately, I’m back to throwing up the shield and figuring out if it’s worth the risk to let my emotions run… or ruin my life again. -D4 ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/55 "2008-08-05T18:09:01Z")
Well, I’m not expecting a reply since that was your last post on the subject. While I’m sure myself and others have comments on your actions and how they might have effected the situation, me personally, I’m don’t really think it’s useful to write about that at the moment. The feelings you write about resonate with me, and I can understand how it feels to think you’ve got a nice thing going only to find out it isn’t working at all and you’re crashing and burning. 🙂 I think the answer is obvious. Shutting up emotionally isn’t going to help you, and isn’t the answer. I think we both know this. I don’t think opening up emotionally is going to ‘destroy’ your life. Obviously your divorce is life changing, but what I mean to say is that opening up emotionally to Sarah didn’t ruin your life, unless there are details I’m not aware of. The next girl, and perhaps the girl after that, and so on, will _not_ ruin your life if they reject you. D4, don’t worry about women, don’t worry about getting back into the game as soon as possible, just let it come. When you’re ready you’ll be more than eager to chase women. If you don’t feel like you’re ready for it, focus on yourself. Just take some time to take your life back. I know you’ve probably already done this to some level, but such a large life change can be a process, and you’ll go through the process of grieving/being angry/whatever several times, all in slightly different ways, until you’ve finally freed yourself from your own chains and you’re ready to fly again. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ariadne](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/ariadne/32/770_2.png) [@ariadne](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ariadne)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 8:40am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/57 "2008-08-06T08:40:54Z")
> [@data4](#): > > I emailed Sarah asking her if she’d be interested in getting together at any time in the future when neither one of us had plans, and she sent me back a simple, two word reply: > > “not interested” Ugh, that response seems unnecessarily harsh to me, without knowing if there is any other context to it. It’s certainly not a way I would choose to say no to a man unless he had been a complete jackass to me. It definitely does not sound like you were that in any way shape or form, Data. ---
**Author:** ![Julia](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/julia/32/1388_2.png) [@Julia](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Julia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/58 "2008-08-06T13:14:22Z")
Data, I have a hard time believing someone could be so cruel in their response to you, especially after being your ear and your friend for so long. That response is REALLY COLD, and I would question her integrity as your friend. If you look at this particular situation as something to learn from, you’ll see at least Sarah helped you get over your ex, by stoking your inner flame. You were devastated and now you’re over her (you’re ex). Remember for every 5 nos in life you’ll get 5 yesses, so dont let initial rejection stop you from moving forward. There is no reason to be angry, maybe just try and reavaluate the types of women you have been attracting and why. Believe me, There are PLENTY of wonderful women who are in the same postion as you or who would love a great guy to be with (you!) and who would love to spend time with you. Instead of focusing on games to play, focus on being your best self, Do you workout, get enough sleep, eat healthy, dress your best? The BEST book I have seen on how to meet/seduce and love women is called “Irresistible Attraction-Secrets of Personal Magnetism”. If you follow the book, you will be your Best without games and believe me you will be Magnetic to exactly the type of Chic YOU WANT. ---
**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/59 "2008-08-06T13:17:21Z")
> [@Warren](#): > > **The System** > > It is a frustrating thing wanting to be able to open your heart to a woman and knowing that you’ll just get shit on if you do. It is a common theme and one that I think about. As soon as a woman realizes you seriously like her, you become crap in her eyes. And, again, this is not just me. It is a theme I hear about and read about frequently. Women say they want a sensitive man and yet there is, in actuality, nothing for which they have more contempt. > > Is it just because they like to play mind games? Once they know they’ve got you, they’ve won. They’ve had their ego stroked, their narcissism boosted. Game over. Nothing else to accomplish. Move on to a new challenge. That is part of it. Definitely. Roy Valentine’s entire book, entitled _The System_, is based on this principle. Girls need to know that they can attract guys. From first contact, to “establishing connection”, to having sex, always keep the woman wondering if she is good enough for you. Keep her trying to prove herself and eventually she will go as far as having sex with you just to prove she is attractive enough. And then she’ll say something like, “I don’t believe I actually had sex with you.” But she did, without ever wondering if you were good enough for her – because she was too busy (narcissistically obsessed) with proving her own attractiveness. Now, that she has done it, she has to rationalize why you are good enough for her. Proving your worth is her problem not yours. She doesn’t want to think of herself as a slut. > > Cute trick, Mr Valentine’s system, huh? I can hear Mark saying that he wouldn’t want to be with a woman who works that way. I agree with him. But the system works, nevertheless, because many, if not most, women are that way – no matter how shrilly they deny it. That is why the jerks get the babes and nice guys get dumped. Kinda nausiating, huh? Well Warren, we often have differences of opinion or morals, but, in this case I completely agree with you. You are right in that I don’t want to be with women like that, but as these traits are part of the female psychological makeup and I believe instinctual, I do not have much of a choice. Remember, Men are from Mars, women are from Venus! Our minds work differently. Another million years of evolution may do away with some of the differences, but for now we have to live with some traits that are more like animalistic instincts than modern human behavior. Let’s take a look at animals to get a better understanding of this: In any species of animals that band together, there is almost always a male leader (the alpha). The alpha male is dangerous, feared, followed, expected to protect and keep the pack safe, and they have their choice among the females as to which one to mate and/or pair up with. And when another male challenges the alpha’s authority he must fight or back down and relinquish his position. If the challenger wins, they become the new leader and assume all the duties and perks. Modern man has not evolved all that much. We still band together. We still have leaders and followers. And we still have a primal instinct to propagate the species. And, women are still attracted to the alpha male leader. On a societal level women want to be treated as equals, but in relationships and on an instinctual level they want a bit of danger, they want to feel safe, protected, and that they’ve won the attention of the leader of the pack David D puts it succinctly: ATTRACTION IS NOT A CHOICE! Women say they want sensitive and caring men, and I believe that they think they do. I mean realistically why wouldn’t they? But when it comes down to it, sensitivity and thoughtfulness just don’t ignite the spark and fuel the fire of desire. I don’t believe that women really want jerks either. But again, attraction is not a choice. How many times have you heard women talk about what a jerk their boyfriend or ex is is, and yet they either stay with them or end up with somebody else who’s no different? So why is it that the jerks always win? It’s the bad boy, dangerous image they project. Women want excitement, they want the alpha male and they want to feel safe and protected. The jerk/bad boy project these qualities, and even if there’s a million red flags going off in her head, she can’t help but feel an attraction toward him. Now not all jerks are bad boys and not all bad boys are jerks, but they project many of the same traits that cause a womans heart to flutter. Animals court each other, and human courtship is not all that different. Most of the PUA methods play on the same courting methods that animals use to attract mates. The difference being that for animals it’s instinctual, but human males seem to have lost or suppressed that natural instinct somewhere in time. So, what do we and how do we survive and fit in in this unfair world. We play the game! Warren has done a great job of stating how the game is played and how we need to act. I just wanted to offer an explanation as to my reasoning of why the game is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![phernoob](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/phernoob/32/180_2.png) [@phernoob](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/phernoob)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/60 "2008-08-11T22:11:14Z")
Warren, I am saddened by your reply. I am sad because what you say is so true. I have female friends like this. And time again I shake my head at them and wonder if they see not just men as people, but other women too. I can’t help but think that these types use everybody for their own purpose. I learned about this because my mom was one of those women. Women who flirt to be wanted - without substance - just conquest. I always thought these bitches - like their male counterparts the jerks - got whatever they wanted. You are so right about the dress for success comment. Why should that matter and not character? Do I need to dress like a slut like my bitch friends every time I leave the house just to get treated decently? On the other side of the coin, there are male versions of those women. I have been with some and been hurt. I am in a lomg-term relationship where I have been hurt by a shallow narcissitic person over and over again. Each time I try to change something about myself to see if he will approve of me. Nope. It does happen to us too. I feel your pain too guys, I am going through it now. I have also stupidly (since I am still married) someone attractive. No, not a bad boy or a jerk. Not rich. Someone whose vulnerability is attractive. Yet, I will probably get hurt like Data. I am not a bitch. But I will regret it for the rest of my life if the opportunity to get to know this person comes along - and I dont try… You guys, please dont get cynical. There really is someone out there who is not a phoney - unfortunately you have to keep panning through alot of mud to find that gold nugget. Warren, Data (and other guys here) you are so intelligent and sensitive - you will attract someone like that eventually. You do deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189/61 "2008-08-12T03:40:28Z")
> [@phernoob](#): > > On the other side of the coin, there are male versions of those women. I have been with some and been hurt. > **I am in a lomg-term relationship where I have been hurt by a shallow narcissitic person over and over again.** Each time I try to change something about myself to see if he will approve of me. Nope. > > **You guys, please dont get cynical. There really is someone out there who is not a phoney - unfortunately you have to keep panning through alot of mud to find that gold nugget.** > Warren, Data (and other guys here) you are so intelligent and sensitive - you will attract someone like that eventually. You do deserve it. Phernoob, uhm..not to get off topic here (though D4 might sigh in relief 😛), why are you still in a relation ship with a shallow, abusive, narcissistic person? Self-preservation probably would have dicated that I leave the relationship after the first or second time… As for not being cynical and believing there are **real** people out there, the best prove is yourself. You’re not a phoney, are you? I’m not. So I know there’s at least one. 🙂 [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189.md?page=2) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ladies-may-i-ask-for-your-advice/16189.md?page=4)