# Lifelong severe social anxiety, therapy and medication didn't help: any advice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [April 26, 2007, 10:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340 "2007-04-26T10:09:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 10:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/1 "2007-04-26T10:09:13Z")
Ok, I’m sure most of you on this board know about this disorder. I have been struggling with it all of my life, and at this point in time, I’m really looking to take any advice necessary in overcoming it. I’ve tried medication and therapy, but it actually made the condition worse. I can strike up conversations, but my problem is that I slip in-and-out of attitude/mood in even wanting to interact with people. It’s as if my logical thought patterns just switch off subconsciously, and I’m left dodging people despite my underlying desire to overcome it. I believe I have the most severe case of SAD - Avoidant Personality Disorder - in which I actually go out of my way in avoiding those who want to get to know me. The thing is, I’m very aware that people find me interesting, and even attractive, but there isn’t any way of controlling, or knowing when I will respond to those who approach me. That’s what sucks. I thought that [pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) might help alleviate some of the symptoms, and while it has in some cases, it isn’t always consistent. I’ve made adjustments in my diet as well, which has helped big time, and I’m really considering going raw vegan based on others testimonials. Still, I know I will have to either incorporate hypnotherapy and NLP to get to the root core of what is triggering it. I am also greatly considering Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and possibly joining a local support group. I will probably also need to go through a social skills workshop in order, so I can start to excerise in the field after working out all of my inner game flaws. The problem isn’t women, it’s everyone, including some family members. I hate it. If anybody has any suggestions or advice, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/2 "2007-04-29T00:29:15Z")
following a diabetic diet thats _organic_ (definately not vegan- which means no dairy no eggs nothing that has touched an animal ) is the only diet i know of that treats hormonal-imbalances. you seem to be looking for things to _do_ about your disorder. there are implements to your thinking that may disable and disempower this disorder, which really has no other power than what you give it (cant exist on its own). this would eliminate the stuff you are wanting to _do_ to _co-exist_ with the disorder. good luck mindset. whatever your intent is to find, you’ll find it. your determination to live a healthy social fun carefree life will help you find _exactly_ _that._ ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/3 "2007-04-29T01:59:43Z")
That makes a lot of sense Lor. I think that maybe subconsciously I do find comfort in my disorder only because I’ve lived with it all of my life. I do desire to change, but there’s a specific part of me that doesn’t want to explore, and encounter disappointment. I suppose that may be one of the reasons why the methods I’ve tried have failed in the past - because I’m looking to live both lifestyles whenever I feel. I think you are right. I cannot change until I target the way that I think, and it will only come with a true intent of the heart. Perhaps that’s what I’m searching for? ---
**Author:** ![HotMama](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/hotmama/32/1786_2.png) [@HotMama](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/HotMama)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/4 "2007-04-29T02:57:51Z")
If I were you, mindset, I’d avoid all support groups like the plague.. They turn into massive victimish pity-parties with people who have not solved their problems. If you want to improve on anything, I’d hang out with people who embody what you want to become. Good luck with your search! We ALL have our demons, and the only way to overcome them is to not feel like a victim.. a bit of a catch-22. ---
**Author:** ![rsands](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rsands/32/1471_2.png) [@rsands](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/rsands)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/5 "2007-04-30T03:23:04Z")
I feel I have to say I am not a doctor and have no desire to be. So double check everything you think you have learned from this post with a real doctor. I’m just trying to help. Hey, you said you were on medication so you probably already know mostly everything I am going to tell you, but I will post it anyway in case you don’t know. If you think you have a social anxiety disorder it isn’t strictly social, it’s rooted in the function of anxiety itself. One of my interests at university is Biochemistry, so I’ll tell you what I have learned that pertains to your condition. I’m not much of a behaviorist even though that approach is relevant here, instead, I think you should look at anxiety from chemical point of view. First, however, you need to know what causes anxiety. There are five main categories which are related to anxiety disorders, these include: environmental factors, personal traits, brain chemistry, heredity, and trauma. They are all important and applicable to the condition of anxiety; however, I think that you should pay close attention to how brain chemistry influences anxiety. Each factor that causes negative responses, like a person’s environment or the way they view themselves, also causes small neurochemical changes in their brain. Many scholars believe that these chemicals are the predominant factor in brain disorders; an imbalance of neurotransmitters like GABA, epinephrine, cortisol, and serotonin can greatly contribute to anxiety. For these reasons, anxiety disorders generally aren’t solved through one means of treatment. They are usually dealt with through a combination of cognitive-behavioral therapy and medication. These disorders are ailments and can be treated, so you should definitely be asking your doctor about these kinds of treatments. Something like this would involve you being on medication while engaging in cognitive-behavioral therapy both individually (one-on-one) and in a group. Also, keep in mind that there are medical conditions that mimic and even cause anxiety. So if you and your doctor haven’t already explored this possibility you should. One of the most serious possibilities in this situation is epilepsy. Further, there are also medications and other substances that can cause anxiety as well. You should consult a physician again for these. Little tip though, avoid caffeine if you think you’re condition is bad enough. I am talking to you about this because anxiety is one of those things that if taken seriously can be treated effectively. It is ridiculous that anyone who feels they have this condition should live with it. Unless it is linked to another more serious ailment, I believe that you and your physician could deal with this in a relatively short period of time (under a year). Also, when we induced symptoms of anxiety onto test subjects (rats, rabbits) in the lab, we found that exercise was the most effective treatment for this condition next to drug therapy. So hit the gym with a good mix of weights and cardio. Anxiety sucks because you don’t need to live with it. So launch a full out attack on it and I’m sure you’ll be happy with the results. Good Luck! ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 7:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/6 "2007-04-30T07:39:39Z")
> [@HotMama](#): > > If I were you, mindset, I’d avoid all support groups like the plague.. They turn into massive victimish pity-parties with people who have not solved their problems. If you want to improve on anything, I’d hang out with people who embody what you want to become. > > Good luck with your search! We ALL have our demons, and the only way to overcome them is to not feel like a victim.. a bit of a catch-22. Yeah, I understand what you mean, although, the hardest part with hanging out with others that are not like you is the fact that they do not understand why I am the way that I am. I tell them it’s anxiety, and they’ll just reply with “get over it”, and as much as I’d love to just break out of my shell, it aint happening at the snap of a finger. I agree with you on the fact that I should avoid support groups, but I thought it may be beneficial to atleast be exposed to others with the same problem. I’m on the edge about them, because of the reasons you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 7:49am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/7 "2007-04-30T07:49:01Z")
> [@rsands](#): > > I feel I have to say I am not a doctor and have no desire to be. So double check everything you think you have learned from this post with a real doctor. I’m just trying to help. > > Hey, you said you were on medication so you probably already know mostly everything I am going to tell you, but I will post it anyway in case you don’t know. If you think you have a social anxiety disorder it isn’t strictly social, it’s rooted in the function of anxiety itself. One of my interests at university is Biochemistry, so I’ll tell you what I have learned that pertains to your condition. I’m not much of a behaviorist even though that approach is relevant here, instead, I think you should look at anxiety from chemical point of view. First, however, you need to know what causes anxiety. > There are five main categories which are related to anxiety disorders, these include: environmental factors, personal traits, brain chemistry, heredity, and trauma. They are all important and applicable to the condition of anxiety; however, I think that you should pay close attention to how brain chemistry influences anxiety. Each factor that causes negative responses, like a person’s environment or the way they view themselves, also causes small neurochemical changes in their brain. Many scholars believe that these chemicals are the predominant factor in brain disorders; an imbalance of neurotransmitters like GABA, epinephrine, cortisol, and serotonin can greatly contribute to anxiety. For these reasons, anxiety disorders generally aren’t solved through one means of treatment. They are usually dealt with through a combination of cognitive-behavioral therapy and medication. These disorders are ailments and can be treated, so you should definitely be asking your doctor about these kinds of treatments. Something like this would involve you being on medication while engaging in cognitive-behavioral therapy both individually (one-on-one) and in a group. > Also, keep in mind that there are medical conditions that mimic and even cause anxiety. So if you and your doctor haven’t already explored this possibility you should. One of the most serious possibilities in this situation is epilepsy. Further, there are also medications and other substances that can cause anxiety as well. You should consult a physician again for these. Little tip though, avoid caffeine if you think you’re condition is bad enough. > I am talking to you about this because anxiety is one of those things that if taken seriously can be treated effectively. It is ridiculous that anyone who feels they have this condition should live with it. Unless it is linked to another more serious ailment, I believe that you and your physician could deal with this in a relatively short period of time (under a year). > Also, when we induced symptoms of anxiety onto test subjects (rats, rabbits) in the lab, we found that exercise was the most effective treatment for this condition next to drug therapy. So hit the gym with a good mix of weights and cardio. > Anxiety sucks because you don’t need to live with it. So launch a full out attack on it and I’m sure you’ll be happy with the results. > Good Luck! Interesting input. I want to explore CBT methods as I’ve heard that this a highly effective way of conquering anxiety. I’m not a big fan of pharmaceuticals after being on Seroquel for 6 months, and having it actually worsen my condition. I experience audible hallucinations, which in my home studies have been attributed to severe cases of social anxiety. I long thought of the fact that I may be a paranoid-scizoid(sp?), but I heard that both social anxiety and the aforementioned are similar except for scizoids tend to be less inclined to WANT to socialize. I do socialize with family and friends, often the center of attention. Also whenever I find myself in a more upbeat mood, I do want to socialize, and normally am not successful, because of the more common symptoms of anxiety. So, I _think_ I have a severe case of social anxiety. ---
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 10:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/8 "2007-04-30T10:09:32Z")
> [@mindset](#): > > Ok, I’m sure most of you on this board know about this disorder. I have been struggling with it all of my life, and at this point in time, I’m really looking to take any advice necessary in overcoming it. I’ve tried medication and therapy, but it actually made the condition worse. I can strike up conversations, but my problem is that I slip in-and-out of attitude/mood in even wanting to interact with people. It’s as if my logical thought patterns just switch off subconsciously, and I’m left dodging people despite my underlying desire to overcome it. I believe I have the most severe case of SAD - Avoidant Personality Disorder - in which I actually go out of my way in avoiding those who want to get to know me. The thing is, I’m very aware that people find me interesting, and even attractive, but there isn’t any way of controlling, or knowing when I will respond to those who approach me. That’s what sucks. > > I thought that pheromones might help alleviate some of the symptoms, and while it has in some cases, it isn’t always consistent. I’ve made adjustments in my diet as well, which has helped big time, and I’m really considering going raw vegan based on others testimonials. Still, I know I will have to either incorporate hypnotherapy and NLP to get to the root core of what is triggering it. I am also greatly considering Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and possibly joining a local support group. I will probably also need to go through a social skills workshop in order, so I can start to excerise in the field after working out all of my inner game flaws. The problem isn’t women, it’s everyone, including some family members. I hate it. > > If anybody has any suggestions or advice, it would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. Look up the five points NLP exercise for inducing a parasympathetic state. Also the NLP techniques for making a movie where you are disassociated from events. If your problem is that your baseline state is overly activated/vigilant (ie in a sympathetic mode) you may find certain kinds of bodywork helpful. Eg Alexander technique or Feldenkrais. ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 11:11am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/9 "2007-04-30T11:11:27Z")
doctors did nothing for my anxiety. nothing. wait, i have an unfilled perscription for xanax if anyone wants it ? 😃 honestly, the only thing that helped me which was consistant in its ability to affect the situation _before during and preventively,_ was something i found without the aid of the medical community _at all_. you will naturally gravitate to what will work for you specifically if your desire is to _change…_ which is usually something different for eveybody. this is why a hundred people will come up with a hundred cures 😉 i just wanted to say dont _limit_ yourself to the medical community. if i did, i would be here with you saying yes, help me too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/10 "2007-04-30T11:24:34Z")
> [@Lor](#): > > doctors did nothing for my anxiety. > nothing. > wait, i have an unfilled perscription for xanax if anyone wants it ? 😃 > > honestly, the only thing that helped me which was consistant in its ability to affect the situation _before during and preventively,_ was something i found without the aid of the medical community _at all_. > > you will naturally gravitate to what will work for you specifically if your desire is to _change…_ which is usually something different for eveybody. > this is why a hundred people will come up with a hundred cures 😉 > > i just wanted to say dont _limit_ yourself to the medical community. > if i did, i would be here with you saying yes, help me too. > > 🙂 I wholeheartedly agree. What helped you conquer anxiety Lor? That is, if you don’t mind me asking? I do realize that everybody is unique, and that many variables do affect others differently. At this point, I’m willing to try anything as long as it doesn’t involve a method that already failed. e.g. medication. Thanks for your input. All of you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:01pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/11 "2007-04-30T13:01:58Z")
well, i just decided that i couldnt live like this (or wouldnt) and was determined to explore my options. i had stuff beyond anxiety going on,too, irritating stuff that could not be ignored but was not life threatening. most of it pointed to stress. most people have this idea in their head of what stress is and what causes it. most people dont realize that _anything and everything_ causes stress. the freaking _sun_ can cause stress. so i boil everything down the smallest part i personally can see, and boiling down all the terms…all the medical conditions…all the irritants…all the mental BS… i came to the conclusion that NONE of it was biologicallly caused, and that ALL of it was caused by my perception and attitude. hard to swallow when your in the emergency room and they tell you they dont know why you might have had a seizure… anyhoo, i suffer rarely if ever now, and when i do i know exactly what brought me to it and there isnt that scary “whatever i did i dont want to do it again” feeling, its just a knowing that i caused it and i can make it go away. i never wanted to imply here mindset that what worked for me will work for you. what i was trying to say was that the _ **choosing** _ to not be the person who experiences this EVER again will bring you to what works for you. dont you always hear " i want this thing _whatever it is_ to go away, but i dont want to have to change who i am to do it. cut it out with surgery, or medicate it, but i dont want to be different on the inside " well, you can cut out cancer, but something takes its place when you havent treated the cause, which boiled down to the bottom line is in your thinking. thinking can change your entire chemistry. thinking can change the way you digest food…and then,what your body can do or NOT do with that food. im sure the implications go way beyond that . anyways, im sure this information will not be well recieved by anyone else reading and so i will end it here. anyone interested can PM me, im always interested in being useful. if i dont answer, im expecting my PC service to be shut off today ☹ , so it wont be intentional. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/12 "2007-04-30T13:18:44Z")
> [@Lor](#): > > well, i just decided that i couldnt live like this (or wouldnt) and was determined to explore my options. > > i had stuff beyond anxiety going on,too, irritating stuff that could not be ignored but was not life threatening. > > most of it pointed to stress. > > most people have this idea in their head of what stress is and what causes it. > most people dont realize that _anything and everything_ causes stress. > the freaking _sun_ can cause stress. > > so i boil everything down the smallest part i personally can see, and boiling down all the terms…all the medical conditions…all the irritants…all the mental BS… i came to the conclusion that NONE of it was biologicallly caused, and that ALL of it was caused by my perception and attitude. > > hard to swallow when your in the emergency room and they tell you they dont know why you might have had a seizure… > > anyhoo, i suffer rarely if ever now, and when i do i know exactly what brought me to it and there isnt that scary “whatever i did i dont want to do it again” feeling, its just a knowing that i caused it and i can make it go away. > > i never wanted to imply here mindset that what worked for me will work for you. > > what i was trying to say was that the _ **choosing** _ to not be the person who experiences this EVER again will bring you to what works for you. > > dont you always hear " i want this thing _whatever it is_ to go away, but i dont want to have to change who i am to do it. cut it out with surgery, or medicate it, but i dont want to be different on the inside " > > well, you can cut out cancer, but something takes its place when you havent treated the cause, which boiled down to the bottom line is in your thinking. > > thinking can change your entire chemistry. > > thinking can change the way you digest food…and then,what your body can do or NOT do with that food. > > im sure the implications go way beyond that . > > anyways, im sure this information will not be well recieved by anyone else reading and so i will end it here. > anyone interested can PM me, im always interested in being useful. > > if i dont answer, im expecting my PC service to be shut off today ☹ , so it wont be intentional. > > 🙂 I understand what you are saying, I think, because it really does boil down to how I register my environment, or atleast once percieved it to be on a conscionable level. Perhaps the law of attraction is the reasoning for the results as it had been a conscious decision at one point to withdraw from people due to many different reasons centered around rejection. You’re right, though, a part of me does not want to risk changing who I am in order to overcome this disorder as I value my introspective self highly as it is, and probably too high. I suppose that if I were to stop thinking about my disorder, and start concentrating on what it would be like without it, than that would work on a starting point to strengthening my intention. I do believe that is what you meant, although my reading comprehension is lacking. Btw, are you getting back your service if it is cut off? ☹ I’ll send you a PM a little later. I need some sleep now, though. lol. I work at night. ---
**Author:** ![rsands](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rsands/32/1471_2.png) [@rsands](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/rsands)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:28pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/13 "2007-04-30T13:28:59Z")
Those are good points Lor. Unfortunately, in the medical community that type of approach is pretty much considered witch-craft. Which is why I outlined those five catagories that are associated with anxiety. That way Mindset could perhaps see where he fits and maybe consider some alternate causes. Also, the drugs you are describing are at best rudimentry and formulated for general neurochemical manipulation. If you are really having serious problems doctors can create specific medications that will help you. It requires a C.A.T scan and some other tests, but it’s still relevant. So I take it both of you have no faith in the medical system becuase it has failed you. This is unfortunate and I blame it on lack of educated doctors. It makes me really mad to think that a doctor, a person whos sole purpose is to help people would go about any kind of treatment in such a roundabout way. Unfortuinately, there are some people who enter specific proffesions becuase they are interested in the money. I’ve seen a few doctors who I feel fit this description. I think state of mind is important, and one’s perception of their sickness can ultimately determine how effective their treatment is, unfortunately that’s pretty “newage” stuff and I’m unfamiliar with it. For example, you state that by cutting out cancer “that thing” that causes it is still prevalent in your body, but that thinking could change that. Wouldn’t the thing you describe be a genetic predisposition, and/or a biological mutation? How do you change that with thinking. I’m just curious becuase I’ve heard of this kind of stuff before but never paid any attention to it. ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/14 "2007-04-30T15:00:44Z")
most definately, i will have service again shortly. this was something i set into motion before i changed my mind,lol, and _now_ wish to remain online atleast for a few weeks longer. im in the midst of change. always a good thing 😃 anyway, i guess i believe that we see risks where there arent any, self included. i make decisions trying to avoid losing efficiency,and things in the process become terribly innefficient 🙄 blah blah blah …got to lighten up and relax more … ---
**Author:** ![thr3shold](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/thr3shold/32/2316_2.png) [@thr3shold](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/thr3shold)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/15 "2007-04-30T19:11:10Z")
> [@Lor](#): > > thinking can change the way you digest food…and then,what your body can do or NOT do with that food. The digestive system has a large independent nervous system that controls it. Some physicians even refer to it as a ‘second brain’. They are kidding, but only halfway. ---
**Author:** ![smn1234](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/smn1234/32/2430_2.png) [@smn1234](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/smn1234)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/lifelong-severe-social-anxiety-therapy-and-medication-didnt-help-any-advice/3340/16 "2007-05-01T03:17:59Z")
> [@Lor](#): > > i guess i believe that we see risks where there arent any… caveman syndrome