# My attraction do's & don't's list

**URL:** <https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126>\
**Category:** Lounge\
**Created:** [May 26, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126 "2008-05-26T06:38:26Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![ariadne](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/ariadne/32/770_2.png) [@ariadne](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ariadne)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/41 "2008-05-28T01:12:42Z")

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> [@mark-in-dallas](#):
>
> Not so much winsome and carefree.
> 
> I would say I like girls that are goal-oriented, motivated, driven and still believe they can conquer the world, but not at the expense that everything else suffers for it.
> 
> To keep my interest they also have to be fun loving and yeah a bit carefree and willing to take risk every now and then. And, of course they have to be intelligent, spontaneous and have a silly side to them. 🙂
> 
> Bingo! That’s what I meant by optimism and the conquer the world statement.

Too bad you are in Dallas, Mark. 😉 My TG is also 40-something. 😛

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**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/42 "2008-05-28T02:03:28Z")

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> [@mark-in-dallas](#):
>
> And yeah, I thrive on high energy social settings, and am the type of person that will walk up to anybody and strike up a conversation.

This is pretty common in Texas, I’m sure. I used to live in Oklahoma and it is the same there- outwardly extraverted behaviors are the norm. I wouldn’t exactly call Texans or Oakies “open” though, some are, many aren’t.

Actually that is one thing I miss about Oklahoma (I was in Tulsa, my relatives mostly all live there)- how friendly and warm the people were- heck you don’t even need “Come Talk to Me” there I’m sure- ackward silence isn’t tolerated. It is nothing like Florida. I just wish the roads there weren’t garbage and the people a little more open-minded. It is a huge adjustment between the two places. I keep my hippy/liberal ways well in the closet when I visit 🙂

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**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/43 "2008-05-28T04:16:45Z")

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> [@ariadne](#):
>
> Too bad you are in Dallas, Mark. 😉 My TG is also 40-something. 😛

Oh admit it, you just love me cause I told you where you could get something you wanted! 🙄 But, I’ll tell you what, you’re sweet enough that I might just consider adopting you. 😉

OK so yeah I admit it, I’m having separation anxiety from who I am in nightclubs compared to the me in the forum! 😃

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**Author:** ![Mohammad\_Shah](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mohammad_shah/32/873_2.png) [@Mohammad\_Shah](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mohammad_Shah)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/44 "2008-05-28T04:30:16Z")

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Wow! This thread is really interesting!🙂

Btw, Eldros, why didn’t you post this stuff 20 years ago?😛

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**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/45 "2008-05-28T18:52:56Z")

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> [@Bella](#):
>
> Wolf says there’s a big difference between psyhco and cute crazy…soooo true…as I fall into the latter category maself…lol
> 
> See…Phya dun like skinny girls either…😃

The problem with “cute crazy” is very often it is hard to tell at first glance, especially for men. I got involved with a woman casually (as I said, nothing happened) that was “cute/crazy” I thought at first, but she turned out to have emotional issues that she didn’t want to deal with like an adult and she projected them onto others (he parents basicly hated her/neglected her and they were misogynistic). I still cared about her but I couldn’t handle dealing with a person like that who lashed out at people and manipulated them when she was shown genuine love and respect. My brother, like I said, seems to be a magnet for those kinds of women, and that’s where I met her. I don’t trust his judgement on people at all, for men or women, he hangs out with a “rotten bunch”.

The one male friend of his is odious- a child of a bitter divorce. He’s egocentric and believes everybody else is beneath him if they aren’t Mensa members like himself, and one time years ago when I was much more shy, he mocked me behind my back, and my bro. is always telling me how this guy thinks I’m a “retard”. He has a “sugar momma” that trades sex for money, I guess, and has no discerning tastes (she seems very sweet herself, but she hangs out with a creep). The sad thing is, we have very similar interests and if he were not so odious, feculent, and nasty on the inside, we would be friends. Just shows how people can have similar interests and tastes, and yet be very different people.

This is one of the few guys I hate, though. My brother used to be a mischievious, but happy kid and this guy just gives off all the wrong vibes and it’s rubbing off onto my brother, he’s gradually turned cynical and bitter and I am the only force holding this back becaues I still have some influence with him. There is absolutely no reason for somebody so privileged to be so bitter and make everybody else feel miserable. He’s so arrogant and “smart” he cannot see how hollow his bitterness is making him, how much it is hurting himself and other people.

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**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/46 "2008-05-28T19:21:39Z")

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> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> My brother, like I said, seems to be a magnet for those kinds of women, and that’s where I met her. I don’t trust his judgement on people at all, for men or women, he hangs out with a “rotten bunch”.
> 
> This is one of the few guys I hate, though. **My brother used to be a mischievious, but happy kid and this guy just gives off all the wrong vibes and it’s rubbing off onto my brother, he’s gradually turned cynical and bitter** and I am the only force holding this back becaues I still have some influence with him. There is absolutely no reason for somebody so privileged to be so bitter and make everybody else feel miserable. He’s so arrogant and “smart” he cannot see how hollow his bitterness is making him, how much it is hurting himself and other people.

I’m sorry you have to watch your brother turn cynical and bitter. Hopefully he can at least turn cynical, bitter, but happy. 🙂 I had to life drained out of my by a somewhat good meaning, but ultimately irresponsible person. It took a bit of time for me to realize that I was getting dragged down (so to speak, rather than me pulling him up) It wasn’t a function of me not being adequate enough to pull him up with me, it’s simply that, if one person is being destructive, and the other is trying to be creative…well, let’s just say destruction is a lot easier on resources and time than being creative. You will fall with him.

I don’t advocate taking control of his life by any means. If he stubbornly wants to keep going down his chosen path, you can’t stop him, and to attempt to would be cheating yourself of your own life. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t create your own life and invite him to partake in it. Hopefully he realizes what he really needs for himself and what he doesn’t.

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**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/47 "2008-05-28T19:53:59Z")

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> [@Phya](#):
>
> I don’t advocate taking control of his life by any means. If he stubbornly wants to keep going down his chosen path, you can’t stop him, and to attempt to would be cheating yourself of your own life.

Well, he’s my brother so I won’t abandon him. I can’t.

I also wear pheromones in his presence like a touch of androsterone/Instant Gentlemen and some [Instant Shine](https://a314.com/product/shine/). This seems to smooth over any bitterness he tries to project onto me, keeps him calm, and we can talk about his problems without his usual bitter crap. In such situations he cannot dominate me, so I am the “alpha”. I don’t boss him around, I just tell him my thoughts, and he’s more open to it, not like usual where he tries to denegrate my own status. (BTW, I am the older brother, but thanks to this friend, he doesn’t often treat me like it… and he accuses me of not “knowing anything” about the world, just becaues I have very few friends. With friends like his, I’d rather be a hermit).

He likes to bitch about things like gas prices, Peak Oil, people being “stupid”, (he gets this from his odious friend), “nothing matters” (he’s a-political, even though I tell him people who aren’t part of the solution, are part of the problem), and stuff… and be bitter just like his friend. We talk about stuff like that even when I’m wearing the pheromones ,but I keep reminding him that everything will work its course in the end, we are just a small part of a bigger picture, and that every human being has unique value and deserves compassion, regardless of what his friend thinks. Maybe it will click on of these days, but he’s definitely not dragging me down anymore- I have pheromones on my side 🙂

He’s got some other friends that aren’t quite as bad, but still… why do such “intelligent” people like to gravitate towards odious/dark/vaccuous ideas and feelings? Why are more and more Americans becomming so bitter and cynical, when all the solutions, just like all the problems in the world, are found within ourselves? (thus, we are responsible, and we individually can change the world) I have no clue, but I’ve learned that intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing, for sure.

I’d really like to confront his “friend” one of these days dousing myself in some instant honesty and MX172 and tell him just how petty and vaccuous his so-called “superiority” is. I can debate philosophy far better than he can, that’s for sure, and my knowledge of psychology would leave his fragile ego bleeding on the floor. But hey, I’m a nice guy 😉 My brother is caught in co-dependency with this guy, because he is also emotionally manipulative (“Don’t walk away, you’ld be nothing without me” sort of thing). I hope I can build my brother up enough so he can walk away from him, realizing he owes no loyalty to people like that. Hanging around an egotistical guy and sucking up will not make you feel better, especially if he drags you down to elevate himself. However, I realize in the end, he’s probably already lost… it is very sad but you cannot really influence people like that after a certain point.

In the end, my brother has never learned the simple lesson that the first friend you must have, is yourself, and you must be true to this friend and respect him. Everything else is irrelevent.

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**Author:** ![ariadne](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/ariadne/32/770_2.png) [@ariadne](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ariadne)\
**Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/48 "2008-05-28T20:45:26Z")

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> [@mark-in-dallas](#):
>
> Oh admit it, you just love me cause I told you where you could get something you wanted! 🙄 But, I’ll tell you what, you’re sweet enough that I might just consider adopting you. 😉
> 
> OK so yeah I admit it, I’m having separation anxiety from who I am in nightclubs compared to the me in the forum! 😃

Not true! 😛

How terrible of you to suggest that I have a mercenary heart! 😉

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**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/49 "2008-05-29T00:39:37Z")

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> [@ariadne](#):
>
> Not true! 😛
> 
> How terrible of you to suggest that I have a mercenary heart! 😉

What’s not true, that you love me, or that I have nightclub seperation anxiety? 🙄

And I don’t recall ever saying that you even have a heart. 😛

Hey ariadne, I hope you know that if I didn’t luv ya, I wouldn’t banter back and forth with ya. :o

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**Author:** ![ariadne](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/ariadne/32/770_2.png) [@ariadne](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ariadne)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/50 "2008-05-29T00:58:54Z")

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> [@mark-in-dallas](#):
>
> What’s not true, that you love me, or that I have nightclub seperation anxiety? 🙄

That I only love you because you told me where to get something I wanted, silly! 🙄

> [@mark-in-dallas](#):
>
> And I don’t recall ever saying that you even have a heart. 😛

😮 😛

> [@mark-in-dallas](#):
>
> Hey ariadne, I hope you know that if I didn’t luv ya, I wouldn’t banter back and forth with ya. :o

Of course, that doesn’t need to be said. 😉

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**Author:** ![mark-in-dallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mark-in-dallas/32/860_2.png) [@mark-in-dallas](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mark-in-dallas)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/51 "2008-05-29T01:09:58Z")

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We could go back and forth here for pages, but I’ll cave here and just say it’s been fun bantering with you Ariadne.

Reps for being so fun!

And, at least I got ya to admit that you love me for more than just telling you where to get what you wanted! 😛 😉

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**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/52 "2008-05-29T01:26:06Z")

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> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> **Well, he’s my brother so I won’t abandon him. I can’t.**

Of course, and I was by no means suggesting that. I simply meant you can’t change him for his sake, he has to change himself. Trying to do so will only result in you getting drained financially, physically, emotionally, or spiritually.

> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> (BTW, I am the older brother, but thanks to this friend, he doesn’t often treat me like it… and he accuses me of not “knowing anything” about the world, just becaues I have very few friends. With friends like his, I’d rather be a hermit).

Your asian’s showing. 🙂 Chinese, right? I assume an older brother in Chinese culture is supposed to be treated like an older brother in Korean culture - Confucian values?

> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> He likes to bitch about things like gas prices, Peak Oil, people being “stupid”, (he gets this from his odious friend), “nothing matters” (he’s a-political, even though I tell him people who aren’t part of the solution, are part of the problem), and stuff… and be bitter just like his friend. We talk about stuff like that even when I’m wearing the pheromones ,but I keep reminding him that everything will work its course in the end, we are just a small part of a bigger picture, and that every human being has unique value and deserves compassion, regardless of what his friend thinks. Maybe it will click on of these days, but he’s definitely not dragging me down anymore- I have pheromones on my side 🙂

When I read ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ by Dale Carnegie, one lesson really stuck with me, which was, don’t be a complainer. No one likes to be around someone who complains all the time. I certainly started noticing this once I read that, and I found that the happiest, brightest people don’t complain, they just do and move on. The people who stagnate really are the ones who complain all day. Maybe he needs some tough love, instead of telling him how special everyone is, and deserves to be treated nicely, just tell him he’s being “stupid” by bitching all day long, “smart” people do something about the problems.

> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> He’s got some other friends that aren’t quite as bad, but still… why do such “intelligent” people like to gravitate towards odious/dark/vaccuous ideas and feelings? Why are more and more Americans becomming so bitter and cynical, when all the solutions, just like all the problems in the world, are found within ourselves? (thus, we are responsible, and we individually can change the world) I have no clue, but I’ve learned that intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing, for sure.

I can’t tell you why other ‘intelligent’ people gravitate towards odious/dark/vaccuous ideas and feelings, but I can shed some light on why I was drawn to these ideas and feelings. **I was curious.** I wanted to see how dark things could get. I recognized that some holes were just too deep and too dangerous to explore (murder, rape, robbery, or say heroin), but the ones I was willing to explore, I did. I felt like I needed to see. I thought my life was simply too good. I wanted to see ‘reality’. I never really found ‘reality’, what I found was that everyone’s just got their own distorted realities and we’re all just running around, trying to make them fit each other. That being said, looking back, I can see the moments that I could have slipped and fell down the dark and deep holes. Flirted with run ins with the law, run ins with people who don’t want anything to do with the law, and run ins with drugs (not the natural, make you sleep and eat one), and came out of the experience just fine. But I certainly did lose a couple people on the way. If I had stuck around to try and help them out, I would have been stuck too.

I used to believe that all the solutions are ‘inside of us’ as well. That’s not entirely the case, or rather, it’s an oversimplification of the case. The desire and motivation to change the world is inside all of us, but the skills, courage and action taken to do so is not.

I too have learned that important distinction lately. Makes me cringe at all my memories of telling my parents that ‘experience is useful, but knowledge can take you far too’. :o

> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> **I’d really like to confront his “friend” one of these days dousing myself in some instant honesty and MX172 and tell him just how petty and vaccuous his so-called “superiority” is. I can debate philosophy far better than he can, that’s for sure, and my knowledge of psychology would leave his fragile ego bleeding on the floor.** But hey, I’m a nice guy 😉 My brother is caught in co-dependency with this guy, because he is also emotionally manipulative (“Don’t walk away, you’ld be nothing without me” sort of thing). **I hope I can build my brother up enough so he can walk away from him, realizing he owes no loyalty to people like that.** Hanging around an egotistical guy and sucking up will not make you feel better, especially if he drags you down to elevate himself. However, I realize in the end, he’s probably already lost… it is very sad but you cannot really influence people like that after a certain point.
> 
> In the end, my brother has never learned the simple lesson that the first friend you must have, is yourself, and you must be true to this friend and respect him. Everything else is irrelevent.

I’m sure you’ve heard the idiom “If you’re arguing with a fool, he’s doing the same.” That’s exactly what I would say the situation would boil down to, from the description of his character.

As for building up your brother, that’s exactly what I mean. Building him up is just another way of ‘changing’ him. The army breaks you down and builds you back up. You seem to understand that you can’t change him when you say you realize he’s probably already lost, but you incorrectly translate being unable to change him as him being lost already. I don’t think he’s lost, or at least, lost permanently. You can still act as a light house, guiding him towards shore, but he has to be willing to come in from the stormy seas himself, otherwise if you go out to bring him in, you’ll get sucked up by the stormy seas as well.

And ultimately, by trying to help him, you are simply enabling him further. He will come to rely on you, and that isn’t a healthy ending either.

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**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/53 "2008-05-29T02:11:23Z")

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> [@Phya](#):
>
> Your asian’s showing. 🙂 Chinese, right?

Actually, I’m WASP and some German/French. Old-fashioned WASP with a little Indian (Cherokee). I’m reluctant to abandon my family, esp. my immediate family. My other relatives… well, we don’t always get along, honestly. They have very different values, for sure, and live half a continent away.

> [@](#):
>
> Maybe he needs some tough love

Maybe that would work… I’ve tried similar tactics, just not as up front. “If X is so great… why aren’t you moving on with your life? If your are so smart, why don’t you have a decent job? You like X hate Y, why not move out to Montana where you can be away from “people” that you suppossedly all hate?” He never has any answers, or if he does answer, it makes himself look thoughtless. I should probably press him on that one of these days. It could hurt our relationship, but maybe he would learn something.

It is totally irresponsible to make a statement like “people in general suck” or “politics is stupid, they are all corrupt” (then he turns around and complains about policies that he won’t work to change), and to have nothing to back it up with. That’s juvenile thinking, but I just can’t get through to him. Cynicism just takes you towards a brick wall at 60 mph, eventually it ends somewhere.

> [@](#):
>
> **I was curious.**

He’s not curious. This guy he’s involved with, he’s not criminal, just unethical/selfish/egotistical- he’s a “smart” enough to realize what crime means, and wouldn’t last a half hour in jail.

No, he’s not curious, just has no “ego” (in the proper sense of the term) at all- he’s depressed alot, too, and dwells on dark stuff. Not deep depression, but enough that his self-esteem is not healthy. He’s bitter, for fewer good reasons than I have to be bitter. And he wears it like a badge, as if it gives him “cred”.

> [@](#):
>
> The desire and motivation to change the world is inside all of us, but the skills, courage and action taken to do so is not.

I view it as, “are you wanting to be part of the solution? Because if you aren’t, you are just part of the problem.” It doesn’t matter if you are a janitor cleaning up puke- are you living a life worth living, as Plato and Aristotle said? We do have the power to change that, it is called ethics. We can all examine our lives and figure out what is important, and what is not.

> [@](#):
>
> I’m sure you’ve heard the idiom “If you’re arguing with a fool, he’s doing the same.” That’s exactly what I would say the situation would boil down to, from the description of his character.

Perhaps. It would be wickedly fun, though. But probably a waste of my time. People like that do need to be called out, from time to time. Not argue with him, just say “hey, you tried to tear me down… but I’m still standing”. Not in those words, but to that effect.

I’ve complained about this guy to my dad, saying that he should put some “tough love” on my brother and call him out on all the bitterness, but he won’t do it. I don’t totally blame him, but at some point, you have to have ground rules. At least the “friend” is not allowed inside the house anymore, as my dad found his conduct and attitude poor and a bad influence. I guess if he figures you take a horse to a trough, and he won’t drink…

> [@](#):
>
> . I don’t think he’s lost, or at least, lost permanently. You can still act as a light house, guiding him towards shore,

That’s sort of what I was implying. I can’t really make him see that this is all a big, stupid game for a child in a man’s body, winning “friends” by intimidation, arrogance, and emotional blackmail. Only he can make that choice. I keep telling him “you are way better than that… there’s something inside you that is a great person, but these people are holding you back and making you think you need them and making you feel down. Find some quality people, they are out there, to be your friends”. It is ultimately his decision of course.

You know, I’d hate to say it but he ought to go to a church or something… if he weren’t irreligious. He’s not even spiritual in any way, and seems to only live for himself, he didn’t take any real philosophy in school (only a course on Existentialism, which is like diving off the board before you know how to dog paddle… Existentialism is way too deep to start off. If anything it seems to have convinced my brother that philosophy is a pile of crap, because he didn’t understand anything in the class, other than “Sartre was a manwhore boozehound”.). That’s half his problem. You have to find something to anchor your life on. You can’t make people have an epiphany/spiritual experience and see that need, though, they have to want to find it.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Eldros](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/eldros/32/279_2.png) [@Eldros](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Eldros)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/54 "2008-05-29T02:16:26Z")

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Yeah, people with quantity of friends seem to look down on people with quality friends. . .  
There’s also “Stop talking, you’ll sound smarter”.  
And “Spare the back-hand to the face, spoil the child”.  
And the newer generations are getting. . . less good and more. . . zombies to popculture?

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**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/55 "2008-05-29T02:32:39Z")

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Actually, the other day… I told my brother he needed some Rational Emotive Therapy, because that would set him straight. He just sat there kind of silently and thought about it. RET is all about “calling people out” on what they believe- his speech is just dripping with self-defeating garbage and easily objectionable beliefs and a couple hours of RET would give him a new perspective, at least a counter-perspective, to that stupid voice inside his head.

I also think, eventually he will realize his thoughts are clouded by a mild, long-term depression, maybe he’ll work up the will to move on. I can’t make him do any of this, of course.

He’s tried therapy in the past, but not RET, unfortunately. That is really what he needs, not to sit around and just talk about his feelings, but to have somebody talk back to him and challenge his beliefs with a different perspective.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/56 "2008-05-29T06:07:33Z")

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Oh boy, there’s a lot here to cover. BTW, Eldros, sorry for jacking your thread. We can take it outside like gentlemen you want. 😃

Sorry about the guess. I was totally off. Either way, older brothers are older brothers in pretty much any culture, I was just wondering if it was the ‘obey your older family’ culture or the ‘respect your older family’ culture.

Your brother sounds kind of like a teen going through the whole teen angst phase. How old exactly is he? You say child in a man’s body, so I assume he’s at least 18-20?

There are a couple things that could be said about that, especially the dwelling on dark stuff. When I was a kid, I didn’t want to draw things with color. I wanted all black and white or grey scale. I liked the sharp contrast, it was emotional to me. Eventually my teachers made me put some color into it because they thought I was just being lazy. Damn education system, who knows how my drawing skills would have turned out if they had just let me draw in B&W. Bastards. 😛

But it’s okay, in high school, I loved living in the city because there were so many cold, dark scenes in the city. Lots of alleyways, tainted and dead concrete. It felt so right trying to capture the darkness of our world, to attempt to frame the sense of dread that enshrouded my reality. I can’t remember what conversation this came up in, I think it was with my dad, but the conversation went along the lines of, look at art today, it’s very graphic and tries to shock you, like art has before. It’s all an expression of feeling overwhelmed. A lot of people feel overwhelmed in this quickly changing, uncertain society, and they need to express it somehow. The art we see today is a result of that need. Perhaps your brother should take up art. If he’s gonna dwell on dark stuff, he might as well make some use of it.

Anyway, we might decide we have a live worth living, but after deciding how such a life should be lived, we must learn how to live our lives in such a manner, it does not come automatically. In that sense, I mean that it is not just inside of us, but rather can come from us. Logistics though, really, I don’t think the distinction is that important. What’s important is that you recognize you’re in control of that.

BTW, if you haven’t seen those videos that PheroQuirk linked earlier (Century of Self, it’s in the lounge under Chinese Routers), it is rather interestingly relevant to this discussion of self-actualization)

Yes, some people do need to be called out, but it might not be worth your time. In the end, as long as you’re happy, and you’re not bothering me, I don’t care much.

As for your dad, if he isn’t doing anything about it, it’s probably because he knows something you don’t. Or, maybe he’s just apathetic or not courageous enough. I can’t read your dad’s mind, but I think it’s because his past experience has taught him already that he cannot change his son. I’m sure he would, if anyone wants the best for your brother, it’s your parents.

In the end, I know you won’t be abandoning your brother by any means, not even close. But you do need to let him live out his life the way he chooses, either purposefully or consequently. Otherwise, like I said, you’ll only lose yourself. I might be faced with a very difficult situation later in life. My parents are divorced and my mother might not be able to remarry, has no source of income currently, has no savings, and doesn’t have much marketable skills (she’s an artist, though of course I’m sure she can find a way to put her artist talents to use), and in any event she’s already in her mid 50s, not a lot of time to play catch up.

I can only hope that she finds a way to sustain herself financially, physically, and spiritually. If she doesn’t, I have to help her. Like your brother, there is no chance in hell that I’m leaving my mother out to dry. But I also need to be careful that my mother doesn’t cause my down fall either. Especially if I have my own family to take care of. It’s a hard reality, but ultimately we do need to look out for ourselves to an extent.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/57 "2008-05-29T14:50:59Z")

</div>

> [@Phya](#):
>
> Your brother sounds kind of like a teen going through the whole teen angst phase. How old exactly is he? You say child in a man’s body, so I assume he’s at least 18-20?

No, he’s 30 (i’m in my 30’s). His “friend” is the child trapped in a man’s body, still stuck in his parents dysfunctional divorce. My brother could be much more mature than that, if he just broke away from this guy and found out that he has resources inside himself he didn’t know he had.

BTW, living at home and marrying late is very common in my extended family. My cousin is almost 29 and still lives at home. He also has a really, really hard time talking to women. He’s very tall (that’s his mother’s genes, not mine) and physically imposing, but he had a bit of a speech impediment. He “compensates” alot by hiding his softer side, and projecting a very masculine exterior. I feel sort of bad about him because he’s stuck in a situation where he can’t grow as quickly, or explore that softer side that might really help him with the ladies, but at least he’s doing stuff with his life and trying, and is fairly optmistic.

The sad thing is I see alot of the rest of my extended family “shutting down”. The economy of the last 8 years has been terrible where they live, especially for middle-aged people. My aunt used to be a very winsome type person (always laughing and cracking jokes), yet still very classy and feminine, and I see her getting more jaded as she gets older, and I don’t like it. I think her husband is to blame… he’s a nice guy but terribly brooding and he had a horrible family history- he worries about alcoholism (he’s not an alcoholic) and about his mother’s self-destruction and his sister’s suicide. It eats him up alot, and he doesn’t “deal” with it. He had a stroke last year. Too bad as he was the uncle I looked up to the most as a kid

Now I tend to like my biological, paternal uncle alot more- we don’t necessarily agree alot but we have a similar style- somewhat laid back, and a little brooding sometimes, and a little wacky. He’s a bit bitter inside, but he doesn’t project it all that much. Plus he is such a teaser and always gets laughs out of people and his sense of humor is very unusual. He used to tease my dad as a kid, and was a bit of a bully (he usually was the one that kicked peoples asses- and was very quiet, big, and scary looking), but now he just teases people. BTW, he didn’t even really talk to women much until he hit 30… this seems to be a pattern in my family. Then men are a bit brooding and lone wolves.

My uncle doesn’t smile much either, but when he does smile, it’s like you all said, it melts the polar ice caps.

> [@](#):
>
> But I also need to be careful that my mother doesn’t cause my down fall either. Especially if I have my own family to take care of. It’s a hard reality, but ultimately we do need to look out for ourselves to an extent.

Yes, I’ve already told my parents to take care of themselves physically, because while I am a loving person… there are limits to how much I can do for them. I wish it didn’t fall on such deaf ears sometimes. The same is true of my brother, at some point I will have to try and protect myself. I want to live a life too.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/58 "2008-05-29T17:33:14Z")

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Well, 30 is a bit on the old side to be going through typical teen angst..but either way, thanks for the family history, but ultimately no input I can provide will bring either you or your brother closer to your goal. We just gotta see how it plays out. 😛 I can definitely understand your concern though.

I don’t know how relevant this is, but I thought it was kind of funny when I thought about it. Ever since I was young, there was this sort of competition between me and my older cousin, kind of perpetuated by my father and my uncle. In the eyes of my father, I was tall, good looking, a gentleman, slim, educated, etc, while on the other hand my cousin wasn’t as tall, not as athletic, not as confident or charismatic, not as articulate, etc…and my cousin under went growth hormone therapy and whatnot to grow taller, and all sorts of other things that my uncle made his kids do ‘for their benefit’. I have no idea if it made a difference for those wondering, my dad doesn’t think so for what it’s worth.

My uncle is much more conservative than my dad, and probably thinks I’m a scoundrel, I don’t get good grades, I don’t study hard, I don’t play golf (😃 Koreans..), I don’t speak Korean, I party too much, etc..and this is all kind of alpha play. Who’s son is worthy of their grandfather’s pride? The only males left in the family are me and my cousin. So who will be the one to take the lead? That kind of talk in my youth certainly put a strange perspective to my world, let me tell yah.

Anyways, recently there was a wedding and I saw him. He had gone to the army for a couple years earlier, but that hadn’t changed him that much. Now he was doing Muay Thai (sp?) and was not only in much better shape, but he seemed to have a bit more of a glimmer in his eye. I was just happy to see him start to grow some teeth. 😃

Anyways, they way I see it, my cousin’s doing just fine, regardless of what my dad might think. And I’m doing just fine regardless of what my uncle might think. Ironic I think.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Daedelus76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Daedelus76](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Daedelus76)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/59 "2008-05-29T18:19:42Z")

</div>

> [@Phya](#):
>
> We just gotta see how it plays out. 😛 I can definitely understand your concern though.

I just gave my brother an amazing talk on his “friend”, and picked apart his friend psychologically. I’m not sure his attitude is going to change, but I think something clicked inside of him. I basicly just pointed out that just because somebody is egotistical, doesn’t make them always right- you can have a MENSA level IQ and be fundamentally misguided and lack insights even into your own mental health (you can even by a psychiatrist and be mentally ill, of course). I just showed him a psychological dossier of his friend, pointing out how his friend’s arrogance and egotism was nothing more than a psychological defense mechanism against the cruelties of the world- inside he is an immature, crying child, reacting no differently than a physical bully with words. “Take everything he says about people as the words of a crying, bitter, anguished child… nothing he says reflects on you. Don’t let it reflect on you. Find some space for yourself”, that sort of stuff.

I don’t even remember all of what I said, exactly, but something may have clicked, finally. I was impressed even with myself. I did this without pheromones, too. There must be a residual trust/authority relationship at play here, too, because he took what I said very seriously. I was not condescending or judgemental at all, and I tried to treat my brother with “unconditional positive regard”, including some for his “friend” as well, and just be unemotional about the situation. I think I need to continue reminding him carefully, in controlled “doses”, whenever I notice he is turning towards bitter misanthropy and nihilism as a rationalization for his own behavior, or the behavior of his friends.

> [@](#):
>
> I don’t know how relevant this is, but I thought it was kind of funny when I thought about it. Ever since I was young, there was this sort of competition between me and my older cousin, kind of perpetuated by my father and my uncle.

I think your experience with your family definitely has an Asian edge. In my WASP family, that definitely doesn’t happen quite like that, there’s no real competition for favor. It’s more like there are “norms”, an expectation you live up to, not really favorites (and the same is true within nuclear families, as well). Honestly my granfather is pretty “disappointed” in all his grandkids, becaues he has no great grandchildren. We try and tell him, the world is a different place now, the family genetic personality doesn’t “work” so well in the modern age for picking up wives (where there are no world wars, depressions, and women are far more wary/cynical in general), and the rules have changed, but he’s an old man and we go easy on him.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\
**Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/my-attraction-dos-donts-list/13126/60 "2008-05-29T19:43:12Z")

</div>

> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> I think I need to continue reminding him carefully, in controlled “doses”, whenever I notice he is turning towards bitter misanthropy and nihilism as a rationalization for his own behavior, or the behavior of his friends.

I think that’s not a bad place to start. It’s not judging his values or his friends exactly, but it is basically saying “Look, you can act how you want - it’s your choice, but don’t think for that your actions are justifiable.” I’m sure you’ll work it out with your family.

> [@Daedelus76](#):
>
> I think your experience with your family definitely has an Asian edge.

DEFINITELY has an Asian edge. My family is pretty much all in Korea. Only my mom and I are still in America. They’re straight FOB, and I’m as Korean as a Mexican to them. 😃

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