# Neil Strauss "The Game" - a fascinating read! **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [December 1, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000 "2006-12-01T23:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/1 "2006-12-01T23:39:25Z")
Has anyone else here read his book? I became curious about Neil after seeing his photo in Jasmin’s “free pivot” thread … he wasn’t what I expected a pickup artist to look like! So I found his book (leather bound with gold edging, it resembles nothing so much as a Bible) and was delighted to discover what a good writer he is, and how much he reveals about the dark side of the PUA lifestyle and some of its central players. _Many_ times he had me laughing out loud; there’s some priceless material here. There IS going to be a movie coming out of this, right? Columbia Pictures, 2007, Jack Black and Kate Hudson; that’s all I can find about it. Nice photo and interview here: [http://www.slushpile.net/index.php/2005/11/07/interview-neil-strauss-author/](http://www.slushpile.net/index.php/2005/11/07/interview-neil-strauss-author/) ---
**Author:** ![bronzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@bronzie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/bronzie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/2 "2006-12-02T00:41:12Z")
I read the book, it’s funny at times, especially at the very beginning but it did drag on about half way through reading it, I had to struggle to finish it. Neil Strauss writes in the style of a columnist or short article writer, not surprising, since most of his writing that I have come across is in that form. I think that is why the book didn’t flow and merge into one story. I felt I was reading a book within a book every chapter. With regards to the content and message, I can imagine it would appeal to a lot of teenagers, which it did incidentally. The protagonist of the book is an interesting fellow, he used to contribute quite a bit on a forum that I am an active member of, and have been for years, hence my interest in this book. ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/3 "2006-12-02T02:22:03Z")
Who do you consider the protagonist to be, Mystery/Erik Markovik or Neil himself? Neil was the center of the book, for me, while Mystery was just one of many gurus around the PUA circuit. Are you referring to Mystery’s Lounge? ---
**Author:** ![bronzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@bronzie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/bronzie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/4 "2006-12-02T03:14:50Z")
Mystery was meant to be centre court, although Neil perhaps wanted to be? After all this book is in essence about Neil and his exploits, the thing that bleeds through was that it was more of a Autobiographical account of his own character, his own weaknesses and strengths, which could be interpreted by the reader as a kind of self promotional piece of literture and the subject matter was just a backdrop and incidental. I probably read it very differently to alot of people out there. I have come into contact with Mystery over the years, on this site: For some insider info, Mystery and others did not invent these seduction techniques, but rather a young man did, from Estonia, over 10 years ago, mystery and others just copied, and became rather good showmen. [http://www.fastseduction.com/](http://www.fastseduction.com/) ---
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/5 "2006-12-02T12:49:59Z")
> [@Carrie](#): > > Has anyone else here read his book? I became curious about Neil after seeing his photo in Jasmin’s “free pivot” thread … he wasn’t what I expected a pickup artist to look like! So I found his book (leather bound with gold edging, it resembles nothing so much as a Bible) and was delighted to discover what a good writer he is, and how much he reveals about the dark side of the PUA lifestyle and some of its central players. _Many_ times he had me laughing out loud; there’s some priceless material here. There IS going to be a movie coming out of this, right? Columbia Pictures, 2007, Jack Black and Kate Hudson; that’s all I can find about it. Hi Carrie. Curious to know your impression of Strauss and the assorted characters in the PUA world that he describes. I was aware of that community for a while but lately, after reading his book, started exploring it a little more (and stopped by a seminar he gave for a few people while I was in LA). He seems in some ways to be reframing it as a men’self-improvement movement rather than being just about picking up women. One common reaction by women seems to be that ‘this stuff might be okay for party girls in clubs, but it won’t work on me’. That may be true, but I guess some aspects of human social dynamics are more universal than at times we might like to think… ---
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/6 "2006-12-02T13:09:27Z")
> [@bronzie](#): > > Mystery was meant to be centre court, although Neil perhaps wanted to be? After all this book is in essence about Neil and his exploits, the thing that bleeds through was that it was more of a Autobiographical account of his own character, his own weaknesses and strengths, which could be interpreted by the reader as a kind of self promotional piece of literture and the subject matter was just a backdrop and incidental. I probably read it very differently to alot of people out there. Yes - I think Neil has pretty much said that it’s modelled on a Joseph Campbell archetypal myth where the hero has to leave his village and venture into the dark forest, encounter and do battle with all kinds of dark and shadowy creatures in order to return home as a man. So my guess is not all the details are strictly correct but he has distilled out the essence of the story. > [@](#): > > For some insider info, Mystery and others did not invent these seduction techniques, but rather a young man did, from Estonia, over 10 years ago, mystery and others just copied, and became rather good showmen. How interesting… I’m curious to know who the Estonian guy is. (His alias and real name, if you know and can tell). I guess that there is nothing new under the sun, but the whole community aspect of it is something that could never really have taken place pre-internet. ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/7 "2006-12-02T15:11:28Z")
> [@PheroQuirk](#): > > Hi Carrie. > > Curious to know your impression of Strauss and the assorted characters in the PUA world that he describes. > > I was aware of that community for a while but lately, after reading his book, started exploring it a little more (and stopped by a seminar he gave for a few people while I was in LA). He seems in some ways to be reframing it as a men’self-improvement movement rather than being just about picking up women. > > One common reaction by women seems to be that ‘this stuff might be okay for party girls in clubs, but it won’t work on me’. That may be true, but I guess some aspects of human social dynamics are more universal than at times we might like to think… Neil’s self-deprecating humor is very appealing. I was struck by one of his lines “If I weren’t gay, you would so be mine!” Intended to disarm the target, it works because he actually does have (in some video clips I’ve seen) a soft empathic vibe, he’s warm, articulate, well groomed … and actually seems to enjoy women as people, which many PUAs do not (judging by posts on the community fora as well as stories related by Neil). So many (probably all) of the guys dominating the PUA world seem to have _very recently_ been geeky virgins who couldn’t get a second look, much less a number close. He portrays Tyler Durden (along with Papa and the boys living in his room at Project Hollywood) as a cold manipulator, very skilled but more interested in power than women or sex - and Tyler’s forum posts do nothing to persuade me otherwise. Mystery (via video clips on the web) seems to be a pretty good teacher of theory and technique, smooth and more outwardly attractive than most of the big names in the community. But apparently he - like many of his colleagues - is tragically immature, narcissistic, self-destructive - a real mess when it comes to relationships, behaving in ways that guarantee he’ll be abandoned, and then absolutely shattered by the rejection, with multiple psychiatric hospitalizations, yeesh! While the personalities dominating the world of pickup are all too flawed, there’s a lot for men to gain from the instruction provided there. The techniques build confidence and allow the fledgling PUA to experience enough success to get over his fears and make good things happen in his life, as long as he doesn’t get obsessed with the game for its own sake. Toward the end of the book, Hollywood is so saturated with PUA that women being sarged will sweetly inform the guy “oh, we’ve heard that one before…” and by now I guess a large percentage of the bar crowd nationwide will have been exposed to “jealous girlfriend” and “help me pick a cologne.” Time to move to Slovenia perhaps? or just internalize the concepts and cultivate some spontaneity … Studying pickup is great for cultivating superficial social skills … for a deeper level of success in life, of course, you’d better not stop there, but develop some substance, something else to be curious about, driven by, something worthwhile to live for … other than the game. While most women are quick to say pickup _techniques_ won’t work on them, most of us do enjoy a man who’s unafraid to approach, willing to entertain, flirt, engage us in an intelligent or amusing manner … someone for whom life is an adventure, a celebration; someone who relishes a challenge. If studying pickup can help a guy conquer his fear of rejection so he actually enjoys his interaction with women more, everyone benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/8 "2006-12-02T16:44:05Z")
> [@Carrie](#): > > Studying pickup is great for cultivating superficial social skills … for a deeper level of success in life, of course, you’d better not stop there, but develop some substance, something else to be curious about, driven by, something worthwhile to live for … other than the game. > > While most women are quick to say pickup _techniques_ won’t work on them, most of us do enjoy a man who’s unafraid to approach, willing to entertain, flirt, engage us in an intelligent or amusing manner … someone for whom life is an adventure, a celebration; someone who relishes a challenge. If studying pickup can help a guy conquer his fear of rejection so he actually enjoys his interaction with women more, everyone benefits. i think too when any guy is _truely confident,_ it isnt about the pick-up anymore. that part of the adventure falls away and learning more about himself as a person through his relationships with other people dominate situations. A PUA is motivated by aquisitions. there couldnt be a place for PUAs if we didnt enjoy their (brief) company 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bronzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@bronzie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/bronzie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/9 "2006-12-02T23:50:48Z")
Carrie, is right on target, I believe. Pheroquirk, I know his alias and his real name, I might share, but im not sure im even allowed, I will find a link where you can find his material. ---
**Author:** ![Dakota](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/dakota/32/951_2.png) [@Dakota](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Dakota)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/10 "2006-12-03T12:41:47Z")
That was an excellent and very perceptive post Carrie. 🆒 D. ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/11 "2006-12-08T17:09:55Z")
> [@Carrie](#): > > While most women are quick to say pickup _techniques_ won’t work on them, most of us do enjoy a man who’s unafraid to approach, willing to entertain, flirt, engage us in an intelligent or amusing manner … someone for whom life is an adventure, a celebration; someone who relishes a challenge. If studying pickup can help a guy conquer his fear of rejection so he actually enjoys his interaction with women more, everyone benefits. Carrie - that I have never seen that point better made. WOW. ---
**Author:** ![Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Bunny](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bunny)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/12 "2006-12-08T17:21:06Z")
Nope, don’t agree. I am with Lor on this one, as always when it comes to this topic. I am NOT impressed by any of this gumff one iota. Ok, so I’m a doctor and naturally logical and a real cynic to boot - but that is NOT the point here. I have posted time without number here, how without a hesitation, “The Man” shoots down every single thing these “experts” advocate. I think it is definitely to do with the fact we are canny Scots - Lor must have some Scottish blood in her too. You can’t kid a kidder, and the English are far more genteel, and po-faced in general than the Scots, so I guess because we call a spade a spade, whereas many others call it a shovel - we really do NOT fall for tricks, quirks, or what-have-you. Ever. Ail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/13 "2006-12-08T18:55:52Z")
I always felt similarly, Ail. On the Love-Scent forum some of those guys into pickup were fairly obnoxious, the way they talked about “understanding” women … I had formed a very negative idea about that whole world, and most of what’s taught _as routines_ would probably get a laugh out of me, at best. (Scot, Irish, and Welsh here…) Neil’s book showed me how the PUA scene, gamey though it is, can really help those guys who are shy, awkward, and fear your rejection more than anything. But what PU has to teach will only take one so far. Just like any other art or skill, everything depends on the consciousness level, intention and creativity of the one wielding it. ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/14 "2006-12-09T13:03:48Z")
I actually agree with both of you… The difference is that I don’t perform or teach pick-up using any scripted material. No ready made stories up my sleeve (apart from the ones that are actually true), no hypnotic language patterns, no emotional anchoring, definately no ‘opinion openers’, no tricks, no illusions… We do teach guys short scripted routines and encourage them to perform them while on our training courses - they use them and surprise surprise the girls they talk to are intersted in them, they engage in the conversation enjoy the interaction - now what happens is that the student thinks that the ‘routine’ was pure gold and the content was what attracted her…It is only after a full day of this that I reveal the truth…the content of the routiene had NOTHING to do with the success, What really attraacted the women was the confidence and social comfort that shined from the student (becuase he thought he had this gold routiene that would make any woman go weak at the knees), and the reality of the situation is that these girls would have been attracted to the student anyway - all he had to do was Drop the routienes and speak to the girl with the same positive mindset and you will see success. It’s a sad fact that 90% of guy genuinely believe that a girl can only ever really feel attracted to a Mens Health cover model or a guy with a 6 figure salary, when a girl does show attraction the guy can’t quite believe or understand it. That’s why they call it ‘getting lucky’ The fact is that if you were gamed by a PUA - you wouldn’t know it, all you would know is that there is this confident exciting guy, dressed nicely who seems comfortable to just stand and shoot the breeze… ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/15 "2006-12-09T13:06:15Z")
oh and 90% of guys that become good PUAs are the quiet, geeky, thinker type men who have a lot of emotional fun to offer women already but just can’t get their foot in the door… ---
**Author:** ![Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Bunny](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bunny)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/16 "2006-12-09T14:11:11Z")
Okay, I’ll accept that way is far less manipulative than many I have seen, and seems a lot more about bringing out inner confidence, which is incredibly important in social interactions - and much less about being a “Playa,” which just to me grates as much as nails down a blackboard… At least you didn’t even mention using “Kino” in your machinations. As someone who teaches Kinesiology in its true form to thousands of students a year, as part of their Doctorate, I do NOT appreciate the way some of these “experts” have brought a really fine art - utilised the world over in the field of Sports Medicine, down to its lowest common denominator, thus transmogrifying it into something appallingly sleazy, and distinctly shady.. Ail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rbt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rbt/32/2066_2.png) [@Rbt](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Rbt)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/17 "2006-12-09T22:09:47Z")
_I_ have a 6-figure income! If you count the two (or more…) spaces on the right of the decimal place… Ail and Gem: I’ve been slowly reviewing some of the PUA material out there and IMO much is formula manipulative crap. I agree with you both based on my 50+ years of age and experience. The stuff I like so far is Deangelo himself (ie his DYD eBook), cuz he stresses personal confidence over “techniques.” The only good parts I can see with much of the other stuff is that it at least gives a place to start. Not the best, but once some guys get over that first hump (so to speak) the positive feedback of successes helps keep the ball (…) rolling. ---
**Author:** ![bronzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@bronzie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/bronzie)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/18 "2006-12-10T00:06:51Z")
> [@Ail](#): > > As someone who teaches Kinesiology in its true form to thousands of students a year, as part of their Doctorate, I do NOT appreciate the way some of these “experts” have brought a really fine art - utilised the world over in the field of Sports Medicine, down to its lowest common denominator, thus transmogrifying it into something appallingly sleazy, and distinctly shady. Ail, my hamstrings are sore, will you be so kind as to give me a little diagnosis? C’mon you cant say no to a hurting patient,☹ after all, you are a Doctor and have taken the Hippocratic Oath! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/19 "2006-12-10T00:48:50Z")
Jasmin, PheroQuirk and I have all met with Neil Strauss now. I saw him for short periods over 2 days at the beginning of summer (quite accidentaly in Vegas, somewhere that had nothing to do with PUA), and Jasmin and Quirk saw him recently. I know he and Jasmin have been SMSing a bit. We also know quite a few in his “inner circle” of “annihilators”. I like the old videos of him myself, he seemed very authentic, like a good guy (I think I wrote about him positively in the past – you can search the forum and see). His writing is also incredible – I wish more modern writers had the skill he did! Very entertaining. Not much connection from chapter to chapter, really, but very clear, enticing work. This guy has some serious writing skills. Unfortunately, all _recent_ evidence indicates he may be becoming the new “Tyler Durden” (not the Fight Club one, the pua one), as you can read about in his book. To anybody familiar with this character from the “pick up world”, you know how sad this is. I know Neil has been interested in Jasmin and what she does, so he might read this. If you do read this, Neil, I have this to say to you: Neil, I know there’s a good guy in you. I can tell, because your smile comes from your heart. It lights up the room! There’s simply too too many muscular movements involved in a real smile for you to have faked that. I see someone genuine _inside_ you, although you don’t seem that happy overall. I recommend that you get out of LA and Vegas for awhile, and get back to consorting with less superficial people. You can use the skills you have and still be a rich person inside. It’s all in how you use those skills, and how you end up making people feel in your life over time. As I said to someone else recently, “You underestimate the power of the Bright Side”. You share what you have with others automatically, and you obviously don’t have the happiness you desire. Other people can _feel_ it. This is a slow, but real spiral _downward_. To get back on track, just _choose_ to feel good deliberately. When you have good feelings inside (whether as a reaction to circumstances or consciously created), you’ll automatically make others feel good, too. As simple as it sounds, this is road to feeling good about yourself again. Everything else can fall in place, from this sample act of deliberately feeling good, and sharing those good feelings. You create a feedback loop of joy, and make a life of meaning. Happiness ultimately comes from meaning. Bedding women alone does not make a life. It can be pointless, shallow act without meaning and real connection with people you love. A _full life_ is _full of_ friends and lovers that have as much to share with you, as you have to share with them. ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/20 "2006-12-10T01:23:31Z")
> [@Rbt](#): > > Ail and Gem: I’ve been slowly reviewing some of the PUA material out there and IMO much is formula manipulative crap. > > The only good parts I can see with much of the other stuff is that it at least gives a place to start This is going to come across arrogant and dismissive but it needs saying - I have this exact argument every day of my life. Having ‘read’ some pick-up literature does not put you in any type of position to evaluate it’s effectiveness. It’s like reading a report on [pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) and trying to argue with people who have spent 1000’s of hours TESTING them that they won’t work because what you have read doesn’t sound like they will. Every girl I have ever told about game swears blind that it wouldn’t work on her. I don’t even bother having the argument, she is making assumptions based on what she thinks or imagines would happen whereas I am stating facts from what has ACTUALLY HAPPEND to me 1000 times without fail. I am not going to bleat on about how great game is - because guess what? If you are the type of person that assumes it won’t work -Then it won’t work for you. All I know is that something got me laid last night and it wasn’t my adonis body (I am clinically obese). > [@MHarris](#): > > Unfortunately, all _recent_ evidence indicates he may be becoming the new “Tyler Durden” (not the Fight Club one, the pua one), as you can read about in his book. To anybody familiar with this character from the “pick up world”, you know how sad this is. I have met Tyler several times and he has been done a great injustice in ‘the game’ - Neil has a financial interest in the Mystery Method, so it is simple politics that has caused him to demonise and discredit the founder of it’s biggest rival. Just wanted to clear that up…part from that I agree fully with your post. [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000.md?page=2)