# Neil Strauss "The Game" - a fascinating read! **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [December 1, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000 "2006-12-01T23:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/21 "2006-12-10T01:48:49Z")
The modern techniques of “game” work, especially on younger women that respond almost exclusively to social posturing. With modern game, you can consciously hit the hot buttons that “jerks” have accidentally. The current “state of the art” in “game” is the start of something better than what you see today. You guys do see how complex and formulaic today’s “game” is, right? It’s mostly empowering what used to be called “nerds”… you know, the guys with big brains and whale sized attention spans. Truly wonderful, high value men whom, in a perfect world, would be getting all the girls… but simply weren’t. In fact, you can literally think of this as the movie “Revenge of the Nerds” come true. Now the _good guys_ have tools to gain access to what was simply given to meaningless meatheads – the jerks and abusive nutbags that girls LOGICALLY knew they shouldn’t be attracted to, but EMOTIONALLY were, despite logic. For the most part, “Game” today is a good thing. It allows what are mostly intelligent men to be just as brilliant with women as they are with computers, finance and other serious topics. Any tool could be considered manipulative. I think it has a lot to do with who’s using it and why. While these guys talk a “big game” (male bravado), most eventually want a _girlfriend or wife_. Noble goals. Both Eric Markovich (Mystery) and Neil Strauss have gotten “one-itis” for what they perceive to be the “end all, be all” woman (what Eric once called “the one”). So what’s the worst that’s going to come from computer programmers and other _good guys_ learning some socials skills (and yes, a few “tricks”)? Women of tommorow will end up with more warm, loving providers? _Prove_ to me that this is a bad thing. To me, it makes for a brighter tommorow… with less children that have scumbags for dads. (if you don’t know who donates most of the sperm to make most the kid’s in the world, dig into anthropology and evolutionary psychology a little. Start with David Buss’ book “Evolution of Desire”) What may seem like a sort of superficial system _on the outside_, actually makes for some substantial world improvement in action, folks. It’s not as bad as it seems, when used by decent men. My comments about Neil above mostly had to do where _where_ and _with whom_ he consorts. I think he’s been dealing with so many empty people in LA, that this otherwise fascinating man with so much to offer, has started to lose his faith in humanity and womankind. That is then leading to his misapplication of these tools, to waste time with women who really aren’t worth it. Gem, thanks for the comment about Tyler. Maybe a less than happy Neil Strauss is now becoming his own made up, politicized version of Tyler? I’d like meet the real Tyler someday. ---
**Author:** ![bronzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@bronzie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/bronzie)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/22 "2006-12-10T03:04:00Z")
The book the ‘Game’, including the techniques offered by others like de angelo, ross jeffries and others have deep flaws, and in fact can do more harm than good to those that apply them, especially in the long term. Although, they often do work to a small percentage of the female population, the satisfaction is very short lived, for both individuals involved. To be continued… when I have some extra time, I will contribute and state why.. ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/23 "2006-12-10T03:37:47Z")
> [@bronzie](#): > > To be continued… when I have some extra time, I will contribute and state why.. I’ll be interested to hear that, The three techniques you have mentioned have very different foundations Mystery method (the game) is routiene based, Ross jefferies is NLP and language pattern based and David Deangelo is mindset and attitude based. Will be interesting to learn what common flaws they share. I’ll agree with you though, under 30’s scoring 7+ on the looks scale does seem to be a small percentage of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Mak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@Mak](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mak)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/24 "2006-12-10T14:22:28Z")
MHarris, It is common for people choosing a lifestyle to get bogged down in the techinques and details, losing sight of the real purpose. To single out the pua lifestyle, they had very good success in collecting the tools and methods from past knowledge, putting it in one place, engineering them into systems, how-to’s and even making a commercial success of it. It is admirable work, many love or hate them for it, but I personally would give them credit of putting it in one place, and making it practical enough for many to apply it successfully. But tools, no matter how good, never make the purpose. A purpose, is similar to a person knowing where he/she came from, where to go, and what makes him or her a better & happier person, to self and others. This is the opportunity that they seem to have missed, to use the tools to improve, and build upon their purpose in life. Unfortunately the tools became a purpose by themselves, a bed-and-brag thing. Too much success in seduction is not necessarily a good thing for own self. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/25 "2006-12-10T21:39:37Z")
> [@bronzie](#): > > The book the ‘Game’, including the techniques offered by others like de angelo, ross jeffries and others have deep flaws, and in fact can do more harm than good to those that apply them, especially in the long term. Although, they often do work to a small percentage of the female population, the satisfaction is very short lived, for both individuals involved. > > To be continued… when I have some extra time, I will contribute and state why.. This certainly happened to Eric (Mystery). As reported, he went bonkers. I honestly don’t think he’s doing much better today. Something like it appears to be happening to Neil, too. He appears to have quickly gone from a happy to a miserable guy again… perhaps even MORE miserable than pre-Game! But they went on a “mono diet” of these techniques. They’re “gurus”. Hey, you might like coffee, and a little bit might even be good for you. On the other hand, if your love for coffee means that’s ALL your going to eat and drink from here on out, you’re going to kill yourself with it. I’m not sure this is as likely to happen to someone who uses a few techniques here and there to, as Gem says, “get your foot in the door.” For the average joe, exposure to a few “game” principles and adding on some bonafide social skills is like adding green tea or high ORAC berries to their diet. 😉 It should be a good thing. If nature rewards you for one thing, it’s variety. You shouldn’t do any one thing to the maniacal exclusion of others, or use any one thing as a crutch. It’s why I recommend that people getting into [pheromones for dating](https://a314.com/product-category/sensual-pheromones/) purposes, also learn some “game”, too. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, makes for a full, rich, and HEALTHY experience in life. Just like going on a coffee only diet, overfocusing on one thing is _never_ healthy. Even too much water drunk in one day can kill you (something like 3-5 gallons). ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/26 "2006-12-10T21:42:50Z")
> [@Mak](#): > > MHarris, It is common for people choosing a lifestyle to get bogged down in the techinques and details, losing sight of the real purpose. Yes, you’re 100% right. And if they do lose the purpose, if they lose their heart and philosophy… if they dump meaning… they can certaintly harm themselves. This applies to EVERYTHING, though. You can’t even use a hammer effectgively without purpose. Either you build a house with the thing, or add on to one, or you can go crazy and stick it through someone’s head. Intent and purpose are important aspects to _everything_. > [@](#): > > To single out the pua lifestyle, they had very good success in collecting the tools and methods from past knowledge, putting it in one place, engineering them into systems, how-to’s and even making a commercial success of it. > > It is admirable work, many love or hate them for it, but I personally would give them credit of putting it in one place, and making it practical enough for many to apply it successfully. > > But tools, no matter how good, never make the purpose. > > A purpose, is similar to a person knowing where he/she came from, where to go, and what makes him or her a better & happier person, to self and others. > > This is the opportunity that they seem to have missed, to use the tools to improve, and build upon their purpose in life. Unfortunately the tools became a purpose by themselves, a bed-and-brag thing. > > Too much success in seduction is not necessarily a good thing for own self. That’s right. You only need to be good enough to get the girl you _really_ want. When you go much beyond that, you start to waste your own time and the time of other people. Nobody’s immortal, so wasting time doing things that don’t build value and add to life is one of the the most harmful things you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Rbt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rbt/32/2066_2.png) [@Rbt](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Rbt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/27 "2006-12-11T01:52:13Z")
I’m also speaking from a vantage point of being over 50y/o and dealing with “older” people with more life experiance. I have no doubt that some of what I think of as “manipulative game” works, especially on the younger individuals. I know from experience that a number of young people I’ve known, both male and female, want and like to be “led.” I’m coming from a different point in life. And as MHarris has been mentioning, even these venerable “gurus” seem to be changing as they go through their life. Many things have changed mine as I go along. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/28 "2006-12-11T02:35:42Z")
> [@Rbt](#): > > \ I know from experience that a number of young people I’ve known, both male and female, want and like to be “led.” \ When I read that, I thought “I haven’t seen much on the topic of dominance and submission on this forum.” Deference signals are linked with A314 … but perhaps there is a schema of sexual dominance as well … We allude to alpha and beta males, but don’t talk about the operations of dominance and submission. ---
**Author:** ![Mak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@Mak](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/29 "2006-12-11T14:23:40Z")
> [@MHarris](#): > > This applies to EVERYTHING, though. You can’t even use a hammer effectgively without purpose. Either you build a house with the thing, or add on to one, or you can go crazy and stick it through someone’s head. Intent and purpose are important aspects to _everything_. And what seems noticeable in that particular lifestyle, is the lack of the words happy, content, settled, etc .. What you see consistantly are words such as success, close, get, win … Don’t they even call it “game” ? The history & literature of seduction tell similar trends as well, too much craft overwhelming the purpose, until there is no purpose nomore. And, they feel that craft & purpose are mutually exclusive; when one wants to settle and be content with a partner, they abort that lifestyle. It doesn’t have to be that way, tho. It can be done better, to use the tools to the purpose .. that is a challenge for each person I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/30 "2006-12-11T14:46:54Z")
I have relayed a post I made some time ago that partly address’ this issue - it is to do with the fact that as you find picking up women easier you tend to find it less exciting and value them less: > [@](#): > > What about YOUR attraction? > > Just a few random observations from my own experience. > > It seems that there comes a stage in everyone’s game when they get so good at building attraction and DHVing that they forget about their OWN attraction. Not only does this leave you ultimately unfulfilled but also negatively affects your success. > > When you start learning game you are told to take the mind set and frame that you are the prize, these girls are lucky to be spending time with you and YOU choose who you are going to sleep with. This is great, but over time it become internalised this is coupled with increasing success and results coming easier means that like anything, if you think about it long enough it becomes true. You go from a mindset of scarcity to one of abundance – literally more HBs than you could ever lay your tongue on. Unfortunately both the laws of economics and human nature means that closing women now has much less meaning and less exciting. > > Also in individual interactions, you neg, you DHV, you cocky funny, lean out of sets, pass shit tests. All these things give you higher value and lower her value, the problem is it is not just her that reacts to this – you do too! The psychological tricks and techniques we use also work on the person using them. So you find the more attraction you build from the girl the less attraction you feel. > > By learning seduction you have opened Pandora’s box, you have taken the red pill and seen the real world. Whereas as an AFC you were excited when you got a girlfriend, you didn’t feel you could do any better and were scared of being alone, so you hung on to her, you convinced yourself that she was the only girl you would ever want and you would have lived happily ever after. You life is never going to be like that again, learning game has basically eliminated your fear of being alone or of not being able to find a new girl if things go wrong. Once you have decided to commit this means you can actually enjoy LTRs more, because you are in the relationship from an equal standing. I spent years as an AFC with a girl who was physically way out of my league, I didn’t understand the rules of attraction and at the back of my mind I always wondered why she was with me. That was shit. Feeling insecure, jealous and inferior is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. Eventually like all AFC’s she got bored of me and left me for a man who despite not being half the man I am – THOUGHT he was her equal. > > Anyway I digress, The point of my post is that you need to take time to consider your own attraction. Mystery Method suggests (if I’m not wrong) that the point of A3 (male to female attraction) is to bring your attraction levels back to a point where they are EQUAL. I see too many guys who mentally think “right she has given me 3 IOI’s time for A3, show some attraction” they desperately search for anything they can compliment her on: “oh I think it is so cool you like horse riding” and then try to move into comfort. This is not mutual attraction – this is an SOI, spend a little bit more time on A3, find things that you genuinely find attractive in her, tell her and yourself what you really like about her. All girls have a built in bullshit detector and if you are not sincere in your compliments she will know it and more importantly so will you. > > By running the initial interaction like this you also set yourself up much better if it ever does turn into an LTR – Being with insecure woman, who will be whiny, clingy, jealous, desperately craving attention, is not fun and will further destroy your attraction for her. > > Also think of the sex guys. Strippers make great fucks because they are liberated and confident about their own bodies, this makes them more willing to experiment, to get carried away and let you do all those nasty things you only see in porno movies. If you have destroyed a girl in A2 and not properly shown her your attraction for her, she is going to be insecure and closed in the bedroom. Do you want to be with a girl who is going to turn the lights off and try and cover herself with the duvet after – or with one who knows you genuinely like her and is going to ask if you want to film her giving you a blowjob on your phone? > > Think back to your AFC days, remember what you like about women, remember that the smart ones and funny ones are as hard to find as the pretty ones and don’t forget to pay attention to YOUR attraction > > “Now be relentless, that’s it, I’m done” From my own experience…I am a PUA becuase I enjoy it, I love going out with my good PUA friends, I love the excitement, I love women, I love the game. It’s not all about getting as many girls as possible and it’s not about getting the one perfect girl - It’s about enjoying yourself and living a highly social life. Can anyone here honestly say they wouldn’t like to spend the eveing as the most popular guy/girl in the club? I am the happiest person I know, and it has a lot to do with the game. The skills I have learned and imporved help me in every area of my life - work (I am a salesman), social - I have great friends, Love/sex (I can get any girl I want) Family (My family love Gem even more than they love Alex [my real name]) I am contented because I haven’t lost sight of who I am and what is important. I ddin’t go into this thinking that sleeping with lots of women was what would make me happy (in fact I thought I needed to me a millionare for that). What I have learned is that love makes me happy, Love from my friends, my family, the girls I meet (however deep that goes), and most importantly a love for myself. Don’t go seeking happiness - learn to be happy with what you have got, then seek ways to improve your lot - that way you cannot lose. ---
**Author:** ![Mak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@Mak](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mak)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/31 "2006-12-12T13:31:46Z")
> [@Gem](#): > > Can anyone here honestly say they wouldn’t like to spend the eveing as the most popular guy/girl in the club? Of course I can. I like to be comfortable instead … That is not to critique what you enjoy yourself, which is totally fine for you, just saying different people like different things. Your rest of post tells that you are not obsessed, and that is all what the Dr ordered. ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/32 "2006-12-12T14:02:14Z")
> [@Mak](#): > > Of course I can. I like to be comfortable instead … > > That is not to critique what you enjoy yourself, which is totally fine for you, just saying different people like different things. Nice, I hadn’t really considered that, I think the curse of the PUA is that you tend to assume you know what other people want. Anyone who is familiar with eliciting values will understand what I mean when I say that core desires for everyone will be the same - to be healthy, happy and loved. What it takes to make you feel this way and how you achieve it is completely individual. ---
**Author:** ![Mak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@Mak](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mak)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/33 "2006-12-12T14:32:15Z")
Gem, “game” or other, including pheromones, are tools .. If I paint a picture, they are like a very nice convertible car … you can have a nice drive, enjoy it, then reach the beach, park the car, and enjoy the destination. Or you can keep driving up and down the beach. It is what you want, and neither is right or wrong. And in either case, you will find others that enjoy your joys with you .. many will keep driving with you, and many others will swim with you. Moral of the story: Enjoy what you are good at and what you desire, be yourself. Accept others be themselves, respect their feelings, and offer them manipulation-free treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Bunny](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bunny)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/34 "2006-12-12T15:30:24Z")
Well, let me burst your bubble here pal, because I had a dozen friends in here last night, ranging in age from 25 - 44, and both genders. I have been interested to get their reactions to all this, as it was perfectly possible that “The Man” and I were both just not in the least impressed, but maybe some of our friends WOULD be, so I gave it a fair go. I had beforehand tabbed into Firefox every single one of these so-called “Expert Dating Coach” and “PUA” sites I could find using 5 different search engines, we had 6 bottles of wine, lots of cheese, and a great atmosphere going. I gave NO clues as to what I wanted an opinion on, we just asked them to look at each and every site we had tabbed up, and to comment. Well, you know what? Without a SINGLE exception out of the 12 , everyone agreed with us that it is a load of manipulative, seedy bunkum. We must therefore conclude, it IS us Scots who are way too cynical, canny and have BS-detectors that function from a thousand feet, who think this is a waste of space, as there are obviously many (we could not actually BELIEVE how many, in all honesty) people who follow these dictats, and use these “processses” in the world of dating and mating, so all power to those of you who use these tricks. Maybe your ethics are simply very different from ours. Let me quote one 30 year-old female friend: “To think these arses are weasling and toadying their way in with innocent women, using every trick in the book, makes my flesh crawl.” Funny that. My reaction to the “PUA” community has always been on a par with hers. Oh and this: “I spent years as an AFC with a girl who was physically way out of my league.” Get a grip. No one person as I said only yesterday, is any better than any one other, and instead of using tricks etc. you would be so much better served increasing your levels of self-confidence by being REAL. So, yes, it was my opinion it’s a lot of rot, and now it has been confirmed that ALL my main circle of friends find it so. I’m sure it won’t dent your belief though that you are doing no harm, and I am sure you will continue to use your daft phrases (one 27 year-old guy said “Cocky-funny” is just about the stupidest thing he has EVER seen discussed) and will go your merry way, and my friends and I will continue being real, taking like’s knock-backs as just that - part of the fabric of Life’s Rich Tapestry, and we will all get on every bit as well as we did before any of us heard of PUA. Ail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/35 "2006-12-12T15:53:55Z")
Im sorry - I don’t understand your point here?😕 You and your buddies ‘read’ some PUA literature on the internet and as a result you opinion that is is all “manipulative, seedy bunkum” is confirmed as accurate? Well in that case, I have read this website and draw my conclusions that the use of pheromones is all manipulative, seedy bunkum, and I can tell this without even having to buy a bottle or give them a go. - oh and 10 of my friends agree! and whats more - To think these arses are weasling and toadying their way in with innocent women, using synthetic chemicals that manipulate other’s judgement and emotional condition, makes my flesh crawl. - fair comment? ---
**Author:** ![Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Bunny](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bunny)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/36 "2006-12-12T16:16:58Z")
No, not fair comment at all, and no, this did NOT just result from a few glances over the internet. I have been plagued for YEARS by these so-called “Experts” wanting to come and address my students, and in fact all those in the department I run, and I have looked into this a lot. I still tell them, “Thanks, but no thanks,” and guaranteed come next semetster, there will be yet another dozen letters I will answer the same way. Pheromones are the gilding on the lily. They ENHANCE what you NATURALLY are. You have, like many do, picked up the misconception that pheromones are all about bedding people. Wrong. Take a look through the forums here - a proper look, and you will find that many of the regulars although they DO indeed use [sexual pheromones](https://a314.com/product-category/sensual-pheromones/) to ENHANCE and build on what they naturally have, more often than not, use the SOCIAL phermones to ENHANCE the people they are, and improve their environments. Androtics’ products are high-tech, highly-innovative and highly-researched, and you will often see Mharris the creator of A314 talk about how he loathes the way people simply associate pheromome usage with sex, and nothing else. What you do? You manipulate people and teach them to be something they are not. I’ve said it before and I will say it again., if all you can rely on is artifice, tricks and what-have-you, then when the heck do you ever really know YOURSELF? You have your opinion, I have mine - shared by many, as are yours shared with you by many, but you will NEVER change my mind that PUA and such-like - is manipulative, and in MY view, highly unethical. Ail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gem](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/37 "2006-12-12T16:38:20Z")
Please don’t make me do this again… > [@Ail](#): > > Pheromones are the gilding on the lily. They ENHANCE what you NATURALLY are. > > You have, like many do, picked up the misconception that pheromones are all about bedding people. Wrong. > > Take a look through the forums here - a proper look, and you will find that many of the regulars although they DO indeed use sexual pheromones to ENHANCE and build on what they naturally have, more often than not, use the SOCIAL phermones to ENHANCE the people they are, and improve their environments. Learning Pick-Up is like the gilding on the lily. It ENHANCES what you NATURALLY are. You have, like many do, picked up the misconception that Pick-Up is all about bedding people. Wrong. Spend some time with the pick-up community, actually SPEND TIME not read about them, and you will find that many of the regulars although they DO indeed use sexual Sexual pick-up techniques to ENHANCE and build on what they naturally have, more often than not, use the SOCIAL aspects of social dynamics to ENHANCE the people they are, and improve their environments. > [@Ali](#): > > No, not fair comment at all, and no, this did NOT just result from a few glances over the internet. > > I have been plagued for YEARS by these so-called “Experts” wanting to come and address my students, and in fact all those in the department I run, and I have looked into this a lot. I still tell them, “Thanks, but no thanks,” and guaranteed come next semetster, there will be yet another dozen letters I will answer the same way. Likewise - I recieve spam email EVERY DAY trying to sell me on the benefits of Pheromones. BUT… I am not so self centered that I believe this gives me the right to pass judgement on their effectiveness or moral implications WITHOUT ACTUALLY TRYING THEM. Once again I am commenting on what Pick up artists are like from what I have ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED, you have formed your opinon based on 3rd party information, and information gathered from the worlds most dubious source - the internet. > [@Ail](#): > > What you do? You manipulate people and teach them to be something they are not. You have no idea what I do, becasue you have never met me and you have never been on one of my bootcamps. Please explain to me how this is different to you teaching people to imporve their physical fitness, if you teach someone to turn themselves into a muscular athlete are you teaching them to be something they are not? - an hell if this new muscular body causes more women to become attracted to them, is that morally wrong? What about teaching someone to perfrom brain surgery? - that is certainly not something they could do naturally. Or perhaps teaching someone to become a hypontherapist? You get my drift? Pick-up is simply about teaching someone to improve their social skills. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/38 "2006-12-12T17:14:30Z")
Why is “manipulative” automatically connoted to be ethically bad? A masseur is manipulative, by definition. Therapists manipulate mental sets of their clients, by definition. If I’m having open heart surgery and the cardiac sac ceases to pump, I suspect I’ll be glad if the surgeon decides to manipulate my heart. What is wrong with “taking things into your hands” and “shaping things and events” and “handling things and situations in a skilled manner to bring about a desired outcome”?? Of course, the connotation of “manipulation” that you’ve focussed on is _“To control or operate upon (a person or group) by unfair means to one’s own advantage.”_ Now, either it is fair to call it bunkum because you assert it doesn’t work, or you are asserting that it does work, but in an unfair manner. You really cannot have it both ways. I will remind you of the social rubric that “All’s fair in love and war” – please don’t try to deny that, like “Buyer beware” we, as a society, have agreed that in meeting others for romance (as for other economic transactions) there are no guarantees of shared beliefs and values. There is ample evidence that our recreational social institutions and patterns of interaction are **designed to give us as much protection as anyone may want** , so if someone chooses to be vulnerable to “cocky-funny” or any other element of ‘the game’, why would we assume that they being taken advantage of? If someone is not competent to make informed social decisions they should be chaperoned. It seems that it could be rather arrogant to conclude that “innocent women” need your umbrage to protect themselves … from their own choices. I’d say that your position, Ail, is one of being outraged on behalf of others … who might or might not be happy to have you on their side. Some people might like being manipulated into bed – then they can have the fun they want and also wake up the next morning with their illusions about themselves intact. ---
**Author:** ![Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Bunny](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bunny)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/39 "2006-12-12T17:15:59Z")
My name is Ail NOT Ali, and I have heard EXACTLY what you are saying from two dfferent people before you, and told them the same. IT DOES NOT WASH WITH ME! What you are doing is NOT about enhancing what people are, at all - it is about manipulating THEM, so they in turn manipulate women, and trust me, I have said the same of the PUA female community - that they are manipulating men unfairly, and in MY view, unethically. That’s all. You have your opinions, I have mine. Ail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bronzie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@bronzie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/bronzie)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000/40 "2006-12-12T22:18:37Z")
> [@Gem](#): > > Originally Posted by Ali HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA subtle yet good… [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000.md?page=1) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/neil-strauss-the-game-a-fascinating-read/1000.md?page=3)