# ntk23's journal

**URL:** <https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219>\
**Category:** Men's Journals\
**Created:** [August 9, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219 "2008-08-09T23:48:14Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/41 "2008-10-01T14:03:12Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> Thanks for your post Bella! No need to worry about highjacking my journal, you are welcome any time 🙂
> 
> It is sometimes extraordinarily difficult for us guys to show interest, there is a weird tension between “playing it cool” and “showing interest” that can be hard to get right. The fear of rejection can be absolutely overwhelming, and so we settle for the next best feeling that “at least she was nice to me today, and laughed at my jokes”, or something like that. It is possible to get into a vicious circle, and it is not the lady’s fault at all, it is an escalation of one’s own paranoid thoughts. Recently, with the pheromones it has helped a great deal, I’m learning to love -none for example. I have studied the PUA stuff for about a year (modified for my age and personal situation) and the pheros have a subconscious effect so that I don’t feel remotely like I’m faking it anymore but genuinely being the person.
> 
> I think Seraphim54 might mean that he was sending out too many “needy” signals and not enough alpha signals. It is very difficult to get right when so much is at stake emotionally. “Nice” is important, Instant Female Magic will do the job of sending out the “nice guy” signal for you, and then some, while you concentrate on showing her that you are alpha. There are different ways of sending the “nice” and “I am harmless” signals, but it is easy to pick the wrong approach and send out “needy”, beta male signals. When the “nice” signals are sent from an alpha standpoint, they are of course more effective and you haven’t disqualified yourself as a potential partner. Seraphim54, is that your situation here?
> 
> \*Ask him in a nice way about his kids, his wife…in front of her…sometimes it doesn’t hurt to point out the obvious…
> 
> `http://www.pheromonetalk.com/../images/smilies/rolleyes.gif`
> 
> …just some thoughts…\*
> 
> LOL Bella that’s awesome. Seraphim54, you may have to get a little more Machiavellian with all of this. Keep in touch and relay any details that happen with the situation. You could make some other surface changes too, along with wearing the pheros, a new haircut and clothes if you can. Nothing radically different, just new. Because this will help sever the associations with the “old you” as she sees it, and you may be able to start afresh. But keep an eye out for other women to talk to, maybe not at the workplace, I dunno. You should have more options especially with these early days of phero-testing.

ntk, see my response to Bella to answer some of your questions. Yes I was showing “needy”. I actually just got a new haircut and she loved it! I also started dying the grey out of my beard and I look better for sure. It’s not a question of my showing attraction. I have always shown that and she knew it. I’ve had lots of paranoid thoughts since this guy showed up obviously. Who wouldn’t?

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**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/42 "2008-10-01T14:14:35Z")

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> [@ntk23](#):
>
> So you are still having conversations with this woman, in some form or other… try and get the subject onto her, her life, things that she really loves. The best holiday she has ever had, the best Christmas she ever had… Sound enthusiastic and pleased for her as you are leading her to talk about wonderful experiences she may have had in the past.  
> Remember the adjectives that she uses to describe these experiences, and use them a lot in your own speech around her. She uses these words because they resonate in her mind and are linked to the great experiences she has had in the past. She will like it when you use the same words.  
> Wearing… Instant Shine ?

Actually buddy, I have done _way_ better than that in my opinion. You see this lady grew up on a farm, literally living off the land. Her family only went into town like 3 times a year. No TV or flush toilets either. Now I had a suburban upbringing with all that goes with it. I love listening to her “farm girl” stories and have told her as much. Don’t get the idea this lady is unsophisticated however. Frankly she is smarter than me and I have told her as much. She can’t take compliments at all and I am no doubt guilty of over-complimenting her, which I no longer do. I’m giving her space to check out this jerk without me around, and working my David D course hard as well as wearing the 'nomes (Bella recommended [P74](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p74/), which is the only one of her recommendations that I DON"T have yet, so its on my list).  
So I don’t repeat myself, check my response to Bella for the most complete details as I saw her post first and responded before coming to yours. Thanks again buddy!

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**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/43 "2008-10-01T14:47:21Z")

</div>

So what exactly is [P74](https://a314.com/product/p74/) and what does it do? How much do you use at one time?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/44 "2008-10-01T16:06:29Z")

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> [@Bella](#):
>
> Ouch Sheraphim ☹
> 
> It still may not be to late to pull this iron from the fire. I mean this other guy _is married,_ right?
> 
> Nine months is a long time to be working on asking her out for a date. You say you weren’t aware of the “non-attractive” signals you were sending out. I’m not sure if I understand…you mean she was getting signals from you that you didn’t find _her_ attractive “in that way”? Does that mean you were also unaware of signals that she may have been sending you? Any signals during that time where you think she may have found _you_ attractive? It makes me think you must have a really good reason for not making a move. If you don’t mind 🙂 my gently asking…what’s been holding you up?
> 
> Who banned you from her personal space? Did she? Or does he, somehow, always manage to come between you?
> 
> Because you and this woman have been friends in the past, there’s no reason you can’t remain friends despite this guy. Unless she’s the one pulling away from you…then you must be careful she doesn’t feel suffocated or imposed upon by your advances, as that will only work against you. They may even get together. Frankly, no good comes from situations like this and more than one person usually ends up hurt. This type of attraction is often short lived. Chances are, especially if he has children, that this will be a fling at least for him and will burn itself out.
> 
> Choose your pheromones carefully and keep yourself in as close proximity to her as you’re able. Keep this guy close too. Engage him, befriend him. I know it sounds crazy. See if you can find some common ground with him besides your obvious interest in the same woman. Ask him in a nice way about his kids, his wife…in front of her…sometimes it doesn’t hurt to point out the obvious…🙄…just some thoughts…
> 
> I’m going to recommend A314 _or_ Instant Gentleman, Instant Female Magic, Instant Shine and P74.
> 
> Like I said do what you’re able to do to thwart it without being evil, overbearing, or pushy. How you proceed will depend on the response you get. If you’re that attracted to her and you don’t at least try, you’ll never forgive yourself. So you gotta take a shot, 'cause at this point you don’t have much to lose.
> 
> The other thing is…if you’re forced to totally back off and you’re able to retain a semblance of good feelings with her…after this fiasco runs it’s course…there may be another chance…maybe…depends.
> 
> Gee, I just butted in here and ran off didn’t I? 🙄 😛 Well, take it for what it’s worth…and now I really will run off…
> 
> My best to you, seraphim. 🙂
> 
> Bella
> 
> Sorry for the highjack, ntk. :o

PS Bella: Although this churl has attempted to “befriend” me, it was only because he was trying to dominate me and walk all over me and cut in on me and so he’d feel more “welcome” butting in on us on break. Last thing he expected was my withdrawal altogether. I am not interested in befriending him in any way shape or form. In my opinion, anyone who is BLESSED with a good woman and a family to go home to (something I feel this amoral anti-family culture has denied me) and takes it for granted by screwing around, is a piece of s–t, period. I want nothing to do with him. Call me narrow and old-fashioned, but I can’t settle for less than that. Thanks again for your interest and input

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/45 "2008-10-01T18:32:32Z")

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Ah yeah! [P74](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p74/)! Absolutely!

P74 is all of these things to all of these people… [P74, a compilation: enhanced attracting effects, a ‘cool person' vibe, and empathy](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/p74-a-compilation-enhanced-attracting-effects-a-cool-person-vibe-and-empathy/5136)

I’m just getting used to it myself. It is… kind of a confidence builder, and so much more.

> [@Seraphim54](#):
>
> I’ve been accused of not being “Alpha” enough but doesn’t my sensitivity count for anything? This guy is a complete ape compared to me.

Yes, of course, your sensitivity counts for a great deal, it is how you _express_ it that makes the difference. You’ll get the right sort of idea from David DeAngelo’s material, for sure. Much of what you may find in the PUA material is somewhat counter-intuitive, to say the least, but you can work it without compromising who you are at heart. And work with the IFM when she is around. Try for a fairly consistent phero-signature but don’t worry too much if it is a little different from time to time, have a constant like A314/IFM. It may take some time for the association to set in, she is to associate you with the nice effects of IFM and the alpha A314 vibe, and the other guy with… nothing much in that department.

I imagine that it is by no means the first time that this guy has tried for the extra-marital affair. And she will know this too. The more time passes without him getting anywhere with her, the more his “jerk” kind of allure will fade too, I think. Jerks get their results in a short time frame, or not at all.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/46 "2008-10-01T20:38:59Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> Ah yeah! P74! Absolutely!
> 
> P74 is all of these things to all of these people… [P74, a compilation: enhanced attracting effects, a ‘cool person' vibe, and empathy](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/p74-a-compilation-enhanced-attracting-effects-a-cool-person-vibe-and-empathy/5136)
> 
> I’m just getting used to it myself. It is… kind of a confidence builder, and so much more.
> 
> Yes, of course, your sensitivity counts for a great deal, it is how you _express_ it that makes the difference. You’ll get the right sort of idea from David DeAngelo’s material, for sure. Much of what you may find in the PUA material is somewhat counter-intuitive, to say the least, but you can work it without compromising who you are at heart. And work with the IFM when she is around. Try for a fairly consistent phero-signature but don’t worry too much if it is a little different from time to time, have a constant like A314/IFM. It may take some time for the association to set in, she is to associate you with the nice effects of IFM and the alpha A314 vibe, and the other guy with… nothing much in that department.
> 
> I imagine that it is by no means the first time that this guy has tried for the extra-marital affair. And she will know this too. The more time passes without him getting anywhere with her, the more his “jerk” kind of allure will fade too, I think. Jerks get their results in a short time frame, or not at all.

My take on him was he had cheated on his wife before.  
Thanks for the link to the [P74](https://a314.com/product/p74/) threads…I GOTTA have some of that lol!  
In case you hadn’t gathered, things went MUCH better last night and I think my 'mones had a lot to do with it.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/47 "2008-10-02T04:01:36Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> Wearing… Instant Shine ?

Yea, I’m wearing Shine, A314 and [Instant Female Magic](https://a314.com/product/instant-female-magic/). I have to get the P74 as of yet and I don’t have Instant Gentleman which Bella also recommended. I think I need the P74 more than Gentleman…what do you think? Also, is the standard strength of P74 (12.5) enough or should I up it?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/48 "2008-10-02T06:30:44Z")

</div>

I think get the [P74](https://a314.com/product/p74/) first… for me, I find I can replicate much of the IG effect with A314 and Ishine combined. P74 is a different thing altogether. I just got a freebie with my last order, a to-go which dispenses 10mcg/spray. Two or three sprays from it, especially with Ishine, and I’m transformed into… a social force of nature. I am so impressed, a big bottle is on my next shopping list, maybe highly concentrated for mixing purposes…

Do you have any IH? For if you get to spend any more time with the woman alone, like she gives you another lift somewhere… have a couple of trial runs of it first elsewhere, to make sure you know that it might affect you too with a powerful urge to “spill the beans” and learn to control that, type of thing.

Keep up the good work!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/49 "2008-10-02T13:31:41Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> I think get the P74 first… for me, I find I can replicate much of the Instant Gentleman effect with A314 and Instant Shine combined. P74 is a different thing altogether. I just got a freebie with my last order, a to-go which dispenses 10mcg/spray. Two or three sprays from it, especially with Instant Shine, and I’m transformed into… a social force of nature. I am so impressed, a big bottle is on my next shopping list, maybe highly concentrated for mixing purposes…
> 
> Do you have any Instant Honesty? For if you get to spend any more time with the woman alone, like she gives you another lift somewhere… have a couple of trial runs of it first elsewhere, to make sure you know that it might affect you too with a powerful urge to “spill the beans” and learn to control that, type of thing.
> 
> Keep up the good work!

Well, I now understand what’s up. _She had the affair_ and now wants nothing to do with the guy. At first I had thought that she backed off because she found out he didn’t want to be “just friends (like she asserted to me even though he made no attempt to hide his intentions)”, but by the frustrated way he’s acting around her, he would only be acting that way if he _had_ gotten something and then got kicked to the curb.  
She gave me another lift last night, but it’s pretty clear to me that I am stuck in the “friend” category no matter what I do. Mainly it’s because I am single and we work together. She’s an independent lady who doesn’t want a full time boyfriend. I mean, this jerk is a natural alpha, and if she can just have her way with him and forget him just like that, then a wannabe fake alpha, no matter how good I get, she would just chew up. Hell she already has beaten the crap out of me since day one. I really don’t think I can win here honestly, no matter how good I get. She has a _huge_ advantage that I will simply never be able to second guess or _win._

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/50 "2008-10-02T18:37:14Z")

</div>

Well, one good thing could come out of this. At least you are in the friend category with her, and you can rebuild that friendly closeness you had before, even if you cannot make the switch to romance that you would like.

Maybe you could ask her to do a favour for you, and you could do a reciprocal favour that you both agree is fair? You could go out as friends together.

Make sure you both know, in fact she is pretty much assured of, the fact that you are both going out as friends, and that everything is cool and will remain so. What you might profit from is going out together to a place where there are likely to be some single women about. The reason is _social proof_.

The concept is that being seen with a woman already - and you don’t have to be visibly “with” her in the sense of a date, just be seen with her having fun - will raise your status in the eyes of other women who see you together. You have been “pre-selected” as someone who a woman has chosen to spend her time with, that’s all: there is no sense of “making other women jealous” or anything like that. So the women observing you together will give you a subconscious “pass”. It actually raises your cachet without you having to do anything, in the first instance.

And you can keep things friendly as you both socialise and introduce yourselves both to some new women. P74 would indeed be a great social putative to be wearing for this, along with Ishine and maybe even a drop of A314. Show your lady friend a good time and she will want to repeat the experience; you can work on your game all the while and try for some phone numbers, emails, etc.

On a more extreme level, the Androtics product [Instant Jerk](https://a314.com/product/instant-jerk/) actually uses this principle of social proof in making the male wearer smell of added copulins; the idea is that he is a guy who is experienced, indeed has had very recent experience of sex. IJ is not my style and I suspect it is not yours. But the underlying concept of social proof, as originated by social psychologist Robert Cialdini (he didn’t invent it - it has been used since time immemorial - he just gave a name & concept to it), is used in all manner of advertising, sales, persuasion and marketing, and has many many diverse applications, not least in the pickup arts.

[Social Proof - Pickup Artist (PUA) - Seduction Database - - Pick Up and Seduction Database](http://www.bristollair.com/inner-game/understanding/social-proof.html)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/51 "2008-10-02T18:57:57Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> Well, one good thing could come out of this. At least you are in the friend category with her, and you can rebuild that friendly closeness you had before, even if you cannot make the switch to romance that you would like.
> 
> Maybe you could ask her to do a favour for you, and you could do a reciprocal favour that you both agree is fair? You could go out as friends together.
> 
> Make sure you both know, in fact she is pretty much assured of, the fact that you are both going out as friends, and that everything is cool and will remain so. What you might profit from is going out together to a place where there are likely to be some single women about. The reason is _social proof_.
> 
> The concept is that being seen with a woman already - and you don’t have to be visibly “with” her in the sense of a date, just be seen with her having fun - will raise your status in the eyes of other women who see you together. You have been “pre-selected” as someone who a woman has chosen to spend her time with, that’s all: there is no sense of “making other women jealous” or anything like that. So the women observing you together will give you a subconscious “pass”. It actually raises your cachet without you having to do anything, in the first instance.
> 
> And you can keep things friendly as you both socialise and introduce yourselves both to some new women. P74 would indeed be a great social putative to be wearing for this, along with Instant Shine and maybe even a drop of A314. Show your lady friend a good time and she will want to repeat the experience; you can work on your game all the while and try for some phone numbers, emails, etc.
> 
> On a more extreme level, the Androtics product Instant Jerk actually uses this principle of social proof in making the male wearer smell of added copulins; the idea is that he is a guy who is experienced, indeed has had very recent experience of sex. Instant Jerk is not my style and I suspect it is not yours. But the underlying concept of social proof, as originated by social psychologist Robert Cialdini (he didn’t invent it - it has been used since time immemorial - he just gave a name & concept to it), is used in all manner of advertising, sales, persuasion and marketing, and has many many diverse applications, not least in the pickup arts.
> 
> [Social Proof - Pickup Artist (PUA) - Seduction Database - - Pick Up and Seduction Database](http://www.bristollair.com/inner-game/understanding/social-proof.html)

Well the problem with that is I am far too much into this lady to do that…I still want _her_, and no one else even looks good to me. Besides, she doesn’t go out except to shop. She hates bars and clubs and spends her off time at home watching TV because _that is all she wants to do._ One time,about a month or 2 ago, we we’re on break and she asked me if I ever flew kites, which initiated an exhuberant convo about how much we both enjoyed flying kites. So I finally said “well look, if you ever want to go out and fly kites on one of your days off, I’d love to go”. Suddenly the great mood was gone and she grunted something inaudible under her breath which definitely meant “no”. I really felt played with and “set-up” and that is frankly what she does with me…_play with me._ She has no respect for me and never will. But mainly, she’s such a control freak she would screw it up somehow. The lady has issues…real _deep_ ones. Enough to label her a sociopath.  
Some good news. I just placed my order for P74, [Instant Honesty](https://a314.com/product/instant-honesty/), and Instant Shine (a full bottle…all I have right now is a “sampler” thats almost empty).

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Phya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Phya](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Phya)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/52 "2008-10-02T19:40:59Z")

</div>

> [@Seraphim54](#):
>
> Well the problem with that is I am far too much into this lady to do that…I still want _her_, and no one else even looks good to me. Besides, she doesn’t go out except to shop. She hates bars and clubs and spends her off time at home watching TV because _that is all she wants to do._ One time,about a month or 2 ago, we we’re on break and she asked me if I ever flew kites, which initiated an exhuberant convo about how much we both enjoyed flying kites. So I finally said “well look, if you ever want to go out and fly kites on one of your days off, I’d love to go”. Suddenly the great mood was gone and she grunted something inaudible under her breath which definitely meant “no”. I really felt played with and “set-up” and that is frankly what she does with me…_play with me._ She has no respect for me and never will. But mainly, she’s such a control freak she would screw it up somehow. The lady has issues…real _deep_ ones. Enough to label her a sociopath.  
> Some good news. I just placed my order for P74, Instant Honesty, and Instant Shine (a full bottle…all I have right now is a “sampler” thats almost empty).

Seraphim, I don’t mean to butt in, as this is neither my journal nor my conversation, but I hope you don’t mind.

I had thought ntk’s suggestion to go out as friends was a good one, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem like an option for you.

I was going to say about the other guy that ultimately there is no strict definition of an ‘alpha’ or ‘natural alpha’, but IMO being a player isn’t being alpha, though alphas may get my women than betas, but I believe it’s possible for a beta to be a moderate player, but (theoretically?) a true alpha male wouldn’t be dominated by a female alpha and should know how to navigate that situation. I may be wrong.

As for the lady, if you feel she’s playing you, or even better _know_ she’s playing you, then either you need to play her back, forget about it, or risk waste your time and energy. If you decide to play back, you can get valuable experience on how to deal with this type of person and better handle it in the future. If you decide to forget about it, congratulations, you just saved yourself a lot of energy, money, and most importantly, time.

The girls I have known are not the same as the woman you know, but I do see some parallels. One girl I know hooked up with my friend and then started to avoid him. She’s the type to flake easily and without notice. The more I talked to her, the more I realized she’s only interested in perserving her world view exactly as she’s comfortable and doesn’t give a damn what she has to do to maintain it.

If that means flaking, gaining sympathy or what, she’ll do it. She’s not ruthless, she’s not cold hearted, she’s just scared as shit and doesn’t know what to do other than hide it behind a false confidence. You’re probably right that this woman has deep seated issues. Those are probably best left undisturbed, don’t get caught in the downward spiral of saving the fallen angel. She is the only one that can work her way through her issues, no matter how much you may want to help.

I’m just sharing my thoughts, do what you will and good luck, let us know how well it goes. 🙂

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/53 "2008-10-02T19:52:21Z")

</div>

Ah… the [P74](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p74/). Great stuff! I found it hard to _not_ approach people (women or otherwise) wearing P74 and Ishine as a combo. 30mcg P74 and 2 sprays of Ishine - it is like the ultimate in social mixes I find.

This is your life, Seraphim54, and you have to reclaim it from her. You might find it incredible that you can get over this lady really quite quickly, but nevertheless it is true. Some of this might appear highly unusual, yet it will work.

When you think of this woman now, what does her picture appear like in your mind’s eye? Make this picture smaller, black and white, fuzzier and more indistinct. Move the shrunken picture around in your mental “field of vision” until it just seems silly and of no consequence, then “lock it into place” when it is at its silliest point. When you imagine her voice, imagine it transposed up an octave, so she sounds like a clown. Turn the volume down on the sound so it is nothing but an amusing squeak. Change the internal picture and associated sound that you have when you think of her to make her seem less important.

Should she still hold any power over you, carry around a small jar of something that smells really bad: make sure the lid is really secure so that no nasty vapours can escape! And “safety first” goes without saying, it should be foul but not toxic, use your imagination… If you should ever feel yourself wanting this lady again, just let the feelings and associated images come to you like they always have as you start to unscrew the lid of the jar, when you are at the peak of these feelings, and really picturing her vividly in your head, take a sniff of the contents of the jar. Repeat until your brain is trained not to think of her in that way.

When you are over this lady, lots of other people will look good to you, and you to them. I think you’ll enjoy the P74/Ishine combo then.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/54 "2008-10-02T19:58:56Z")

</div>

Phya, of course you’re very right, dude. I presume you have been in the unreciprocated love/one-itis situation before, I do not know of a guy who actually hasn’t, so I’ll hazard a guess that you have. I’ve been there, it is an absolute nightmare. It is easy to intellectualise about but hell to go through. Seraphim54, there was a time when you were fine before you ever met this woman and you will be fine afterwards.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/55 "2008-10-02T20:48:26Z")

</div>

so… very little to report today. I did wear 10mcg P79, 3 drops A314 and 2 sprays Turn Up The Heat out to my usual coffee shop. I wore the A314 and P79 to see if it would help me with this work I had to do earlier in the day, it seemed to do the trick. I added the TUTH later because I am trying to keep track of the timeframe in which the neroli smell goes from “OMG!” to tolerable, and also just for the lolz.

Very few people out and about today, but it was a day when I noticed the increased respect and deference from men as a result of the -Androsterone and -none, I guess… Guys were stepping aside to get out of my way even as I was quite some way away, when I stepped aside to let guys past with their hot drinks, they seemed extraordinarily grateful for just that regular bit of civility. Not many women about actually, there were the staff at the coffee shop, who have been treated to an interesting selection of phero-signatures over the past few weeks…

I am increasingly getting used to the “caveman” self-effects and now can just be a regular dude, although I can quite easily crack a boner or at least a semi if my thoughts wax too sexual, even when out and about… LOL 😃 I have to pick my TUTH-attire appropriately to conceal any priapic outbursts:o… baggy clothing is in order.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/56 "2008-10-03T03:04:55Z")

</div>

> [@Phya](#):
>
> Seraphim, I don’t mean to butt in, as this is neither my journal nor my conversation, but I hope you don’t mind.
> 
> I had thought ntk’s suggestion to go out as friends was a good one, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem like an option for you.
> 
> I was going to say about the other guy that ultimately there is no strict definition of an ‘alpha’ or ‘natural alpha’, but IMO being a player isn’t being alpha, though alphas may get my women than betas, but I believe it’s possible for a beta to be a moderate player, but (theoretically?) a true alpha male wouldn’t be dominated by a female alpha and should know how to navigate that situation. I may be wrong.
> 
> As for the lady, if you feel she’s playing you, or even better _know_ she’s playing you, then either you need to play her back, forget about it, or risk waste your time and energy. If you decide to play back, you can get valuable experience on how to deal with this type of person and better handle it in the future. If you decide to forget about it, congratulations, you just saved yourself a lot of energy, money, and most importantly, time.
> 
> The girls I have known are not the same as the woman you know, but I do see some parallels. One girl I know hooked up with my friend and then started to avoid him. She’s the type to flake easily and without notice. The more I talked to her, the more I realized she’s only interested in perserving her world view exactly as she’s comfortable and doesn’t give a damn what she has to do to maintain it.
> 
> If that means flaking, gaining sympathy or what, she’ll do it. She’s not ruthless, she’s not cold hearted, she’s just scared as shit and doesn’t know what to do other than hide it behind a false confidence. You’re probably right that this woman has deep seated issues. Those are probably best left undisturbed, don’t get caught in the downward spiral of saving the fallen angel. She is the only one that can work her way through her issues, no matter how much you may want to help.
> 
> I’m just sharing my thoughts, do what you will and good luck, let us know how well it goes. 🙂

Hey Phya  
All input is appreciated and I regard all as friends here 🙂.

"I was going to say about the other guy that ultimately there is no strict definition of an ‘alpha’ or ‘natural alpha’ "

Well this guy isn’t any “master” by any means ie he has no technique really. He has natural confidence that probably sprang from good parenting, not his own efforts. He’s a mesomorph (are you familiar with body types?) while I’m an ectomorph. Has a deeper voice than me, not that mine is girly or anything. Again, not due to his own efforts. He’s basically an unsophisticated caveman which is why I say “natural alpha”

“a true alpha male wouldn’t be dominated by a female alpha”

Gotta disagree there. Females are beta by nature and have a natural edge in “the game”. But, and I hate to break it to you, women have always ‘worn the pants’ behind the scenes even when feigning submission. Even a beta female can control an alpha at times, but an Alpha female is basically a lady that has spent a lot of time in male roles and has become like a man, an unnatural self creation, but because she has a pussy, can blow away any Alpha male. We don’t like to admit it but women have more power than us when acting without ethics.

Yea going out as friends is no good because my feelings for her are too strong. We already have been “out as friends” really. Months of taking long breaks together one-on-one, where an apparently dysfunctional bonding happened. I am in love, she sees me as a ‘girlfriend’ (ugh!). Get it? Also we did have coffee together once after work (a 1/2 hour ‘date’) and, as I mentioned in one response in this thread, she came to pick me up to go up to the hospital together because our company was requiring all employees to take a Pee test (she even had me drive her car because she’s very nervous on the particular road to the hospital), and afterwards we went to a thrift store and shopped for about 45 mins or so (I tried to extend things but to no avail). So we have been out as ‘friends’.  
Although I have asserted that “she had the affair”, I will never know for sure. I am going by my ‘gut’ feelings of my observations of their interactions which they thought no one noticed, but since I am so close to the situation, I did. I’d prefer I was wrong but I don’t believe I am. I also think there is a deliberate amount of ‘rubbing my nose in it’ on her part that again, no one else, even though present, would notice. She has a cruel streak to say the least, that’s not about me at all but rather her issues. When she abuses me, she’s abusing someone else that abused her. I am just a convenient target. She’s intelligent and complex as well as beautiful and I have no real hope of “handling” her, not only at my present stage, but even were I to become a “master”.

"One girl I know hooked up with my friend and then started to avoid him. She’s the type to flake easily and without notice. The more I talked to her, the more I realized she’s only interested in perserving her world view exactly as she’s comfortable and doesn’t give a damn what she has to do to maintain it.

If that means flaking, gaining sympathy or what, she’ll do it. She’s not ruthless, she’s not cold hearted, she’s just scared as shit and doesn’t know what to do other than hide it behind a false confidence."

Yea that describes her perfectly except for the ruthless and cold hearted, which my lady definitely can be. And yea, I have recognised all this and tried to help her but, as you say, got caught up in the downward spiral of the fallen angel.

Thanks for your input dude…reps to you!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/57 "2008-10-03T03:14:25Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> Ah… the P74. Great stuff! I found it hard to _not_ approach people (women or otherwise) wearing P74 and Instant Shine as a combo. 30mcg P74 and 2 sprays of Instant Shine - it is like the ultimate in social mixes I find.
> 
> This is your life, Seraphim54, and you have to reclaim it from her. You might find it incredible that you can get over this lady really quite quickly, but nevertheless it is true. Some of this might appear highly unusual, yet it will work.
> 
> When you think of this woman now, what does her picture appear like in your mind’s eye? Make this picture smaller, black and white, fuzzier and more indistinct. Move the shrunken picture around in your mental “field of vision” until it just seems silly and of no consequence, then “lock it into place” when it is at its silliest point. When you imagine her voice, imagine it transposed up an octave, so she sounds like a clown. Turn the volume down on the sound so it is nothing but an amusing squeak. Change the internal picture and associated sound that you have when you think of her to make her seem less important.
> 
> Should she still hold any power over you, carry around a small jar of something that smells really bad: make sure the lid is really secure so that no nasty vapours can escape! And “safety first” goes without saying, it should be foul but not toxic, use your imagination… If you should ever feel yourself wanting this lady again, just let the feelings and associated images come to you like they always have as you start to unscrew the lid of the jar, when you are at the peak of these feelings, and really picturing her vividly in your head, take a sniff of the contents of the jar. Repeat until your brain is trained not to think of her in that way.
> 
> When you are over this lady, lots of other people will look good to you, and you to them. I think you’ll enjoy the P74/Ishine combo then.

LMAO ntk these ideas are great. Actually, this lady has had a habbit of “reeling me back in” everytime I have attempted to reclaim my life. We’ve had many “falling outs” in the past and reconciled after I walked. But this is the first time she went as far as to sleep with another guy right ‘in my face’ and as such, the reconciliation that she has initiated is much more difficult for me to accept because I just see it as being set up to be hurt again.  
I am sure other ladies will look good to me as long as SHE isn’t there, and also by mentally ‘reducing’ her by such techniques as you have described. Thanks buddy!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:17am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/58 "2008-10-03T07:17:44Z")

</div>

> [@Seraphim54](#):
>
> Gotta disagree there. Females are beta by nature and have a natural edge in “the game”.

umm… not so much “females are beta by nature”, no way!! There is a similar distribution of alpha males and alpha females in society… and one should think about their impact outside the sexual realm as well, to get an idea of how they express their alpha-ness. On an extreme level, take the alpha female, part of what seems a bygone age, who eschews dating and men altogether and goes off adventuring, travelling through several continents and confounding all the male sterotypes. The sort of woman in the early 20th century who went off to see the world on horseback.

On an everyday community level, think of the woman who everyone in her social circle turns to for advice and support when things go wrong.  
The alpha females operate differently to the alpha males for sure, and there are also wannabe-alpha-females just as much as there are wannabe-alpha-males: the wannabe-alpha-females make a lot of noise but have no substance or really interesting opinions of their own, the wannabe-alpha-males are perhaps more threatening in society because they feel the need to prove themselves often by physical aggression.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:50am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/59 "2008-10-03T08:50:21Z")

</div>

> [@ntk23](#):
>
> _ **umm… not so much “females are beta by nature”, no way!! There is a similar distribution of alpha males and alpha females in society… and one should think about their impact outside the sexual realm as well, to get an idea of how they express their alpha-ness.** _

Very well said, ntk. Indeed. 😉 Reps.

Also females who can switch hit, so to speak, can use their real or percieved alpha-beta natures to their advantage. Just like lil’ ol’ me. 😃

I use my natural alpha nature for business and also for social. I can lead np. Then, often, when I come home put on my beta cap and soften my edges for Wolfie. Pull it out when I need it and tuck it away when I don’t. It doesn’t mean I let anybody roll over me. But in certan circumstances I’ve learned it’s to my advantage to temper it. 🙂 Sometime you catch more flies with honey.

Bella

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/60 "2008-10-03T13:41:33Z")

</div>

And reps to you too Bella, for your enlightening input! It is much more like a division of labour than a strict “dominance” hierachy. Both in relationships and in the “tribe”.

Our post-industrial tribes have grown very complex indeed, but it looks like everyone you look from the rare and geographically-remote hunter-gatherer cultures to our highly technological culture, there are cultural checks and balances on the alpha males and females; they don’t get a licence to do whatever they like. Admittedly there is the odd aberration like when someone sets up a cult, or a civilisation is in its last, decadent throes\*, but in general alphas have to know their place too, and their responsibilities. The really great ones can find ways of getting their own way that don’t involve a “zero-sum game”, they will sidestep such awkward situations altogether through the application of their highly-developed social intelligence.

So, Seraphim54, I see this married guy as someone who exhibited _some_ alpha traits, but not others. If he was truly alpha he would have left you thinking that he was a great guy even as he was charming this woman, until you realised far too late what he was up to.

- and then the alphas only get away with it for so long - like with the French Revolution.

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