# ntk23's journal **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Journals\ **Created:** [August 9, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219 "2008-08-09T23:48:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/61 "2008-10-03T13:53:10Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > And reps to you too Bella, for your enlightening input! It is much more like a division of labour than a strict “dominance” hierachy. Both in relationships and in the “tribe”. > > Our post-industrial tribes have grown very complex indeed, but it looks like everyone you look from the rare and geographically-remote hunter-gatherer cultures to our highly technological culture, there are cultural checks and balances on the alpha males and females; they don’t get a licence to do whatever they like. Admittedly there is the odd aberration like when someone sets up a cult, or a civilisation is in its last, decadent throes\*, but in general alphas have to know their place too, and their responsibilities. The really great ones can find ways of getting their own way that don’t involve a “zero-sum game”, they will sidestep such awkward situations altogether through the application of their highly-developed social intelligence. > > So, Seraphim54, I see this married guy as someone who exhibited _some_ alpha traits, but not others. If he was truly alpha he would have left you thinking that he was a great guy even as he was charming this woman, until you realised far too late what he was up to. > > - and then the alphas only get away with it for so long - like with the French Revolution. Well it seems I have put some people off and I apologize. Perhaps it is because I have an incomplete understanding of what Alpha is. I now think I was wrong, and the affair never happened. The married guy is staying away now (because she told him to) and last night, she and I took our breaks together like old times. I’m still just a friend and probably always will be, but who knows. Whatever this Alpha thing is, I need it because _she_ is definitely Alpha without a doubt and certainly wont find a beta male attractive. She’s more than capable of over riding any [pheromones](https://a314.com/shop/) I might have on because I don’t have the Alpha “substance” to back it up. “If he was truly alpha he would have left you thinking that he was a great guy even as he was charming this woman, until you realised far too late what he was up to” He definitely tried to pull that off, but I always knew what he was up to from the beginning. Like I said, he wasn’t smooth at all, really rather clumsy. And I _told_ her what he was up to but she didn’t believe me. I found this difficult since I could see it plainly and she, who is far better at reading people than me, claimed "he doesn’t mean anything by it (whatever the behavior or words he happened to be engaging in at the time). So I guess once she saw I was correct, she told him to take a hike. ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/62 "2008-10-03T14:42:21Z")
The Alpha thing is… very complex, in a very complex society. And in different social contexts, even someone who considers himself beta might find that he is the alpha. Remember a time when you commanded the respect of a group? Perhaps you had a certain expertise in some matter that everyone deferred to, or perhaps you just felt on form and were witty and entertaining for an evening. You left people feeling better about themselves and thinking that you were a great guy. Well, I’m sure that, in your 54 years, you must have had some experience of this. If you can have more and more of these moments - through projecting the A314 image and showing people that you have something that they want to be around - then people will tend to have an “alpha” image of you in mind, and it should escalate as you notice people seek you out for advice, wisdom or just for fun and good times. In fact it is one of the best things you can do for the people around you. Imagine if someone is feeling ill, miserable or otherwise put out. A hesistant, uncertain “beta” way of trying to help them out is not nearly so effective as going in there with a strong “alpha” state and letting them know you care. I’ve done this many times. I can look after other people far better than I can actually look after myself, LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/63 "2008-10-03T14:52:35Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > The Alpha thing is… very complex, in a very complex society. And in different social contexts, even someone who considers himself beta might find that he is the alpha. Remember a time when you commanded the respect of a group? Perhaps you had a certain expertise in some matter that everyone deferred to, or perhaps you just felt on form and were witty and entertaining for an evening. You left people feeling better about themselves and thinking that you were a great guy. Well, I’m sure that, in your 54 years, you must have had some experience of this. If you can have more and more of these moments - through projecting the A314 image and showing people that you have something that they want to be around - then people will tend to have an “alpha” image of you in mind, and it should escalate as you notice people seek you out for advice, wisdom or just for fun and good times. > > In fact it is one of the best things you can do for the people around you. Imagine if someone is feeling ill, miserable or otherwise put out. A hesistant, uncertain “beta” way of trying to help them out is not nearly so effective as going in there with a strong “alpha” state and letting them know you care. I’ve done this many times. I can look after other people far better than I can actually look after myself, LOL. BTW you never said your age. I’m curious. I have had times when I commanded the respect of a group I suppose. Since I was elected union steward, I command much more respect in the workplace. But I still have that neediness and insecurity that is like a tortuous black hole inside of me. It’s not this way all the time, but when it really counts I tend to feel I have nothing of substance to offer. I am always fine when I am one on one with this lady, but when someone like this pushy guy comes along, it’s like she forgets I am even there. ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/64 "2008-10-03T15:25:17Z")
I’m 37 myself. I guess you got off to a bad start with this lady. You can count on the pheros to project an image that will completely give the opposite impression to “neediness and insecurity”, but it requires a bit of work to act congruent, just the right body language and stuff. You can be guaranteed that no one can see any “neediness and insecurity” inside you as such; no one is a mind reader. What they can see are, consciously or subconsciously, outward _manifestations_ of those feelings, via the way you speak and act. And it will take quite a bit more than that to overcome the history that you have had with this lady, there is too much in her recent memory. I really hope myself that she wasn’t a party to any of this guy’s adulterous ways. Even if they both “got away with it” and the wife and kids never found out, it would just encourage this guy to think he could get away with adultery again. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/65 "2008-10-03T15:55:45Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > I’m 37 myself. I guess you got off to a bad start with this lady. You can count on the pheros to project an image that will completely give the opposite impression to “neediness and insecurity”, but it requires a bit of work to act congruent, just the right body language and stuff. You can be guaranteed that no one can see any “neediness and insecurity” inside you as such; no one is a mind reader. What they can see are, consciously or subconsciously, outward _manifestations_ of those feelings, via the way you speak and act. > > And it will take quite a bit more than that to overcome the history that you have had with this lady, there is too much in her recent memory. I really hope myself that she wasn’t a party to any of this guy’s adulterous ways. Even if they both “got away with it” and the wife and kids never found out, it would just encourage this guy to think he could get away with adultery again. Well I hope not too… especially if it’s with _her. And I hope she’s not just “putting on an act” and it’s still happening. She can’t seem to go an entire shift without mentioning his name (though tonight, she started referring to him as ‘the new Dennis’…we have two Dennis’…sounded a bit contrived as if she didn’t know his last name or was trying to make it sound like she never gave him a second thought. Fact is, I KNOW he has her cell phone number. She could_ have been just trying to reassure me. But somehow I am not convinced. And I can’t ask her anything straight out anymore lest she fall back on the sexual harassment threat. "You can count on the pheros to project an image that will completely give the opposite impression to “neediness and insecurity” Maybe, but if she’s already involved with this guy, it doesn’t much matter. I’m screwed. ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/66 "2008-10-03T16:21:37Z")
> [@Seraphim54](#): > > Maybe, but if she’s already involved with this guy, it doesn’t much matter. I’m screwed. “Screwed” vis-a-vis this woman, maybe, if you want to call it that, but you have a great future ahead of you having found the pheromones, the PUA materials and a whole bunch of other stuff out there. And is she really worth it, if she is the sort to mess around with a married man who has children? You already said how smart and independent she is, so, if she did do it, it was an informed choice of her own free will. She can’t play the “I’m a poor little helpless girl who got seduced by the big bad man” card and get away with it, it seems to me. Maybe it is time to start the aversion technique now 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/67 "2008-10-03T16:34:25Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > “Screwed” vis-a-vis this woman, maybe, if you want to call it that, but you have a great future ahead of you having found the pheromones, the PUA materials and a whole bunch of other stuff out there. > > And is she really worth it, if she is the sort to mess around with a married man who has children? You already said how smart and independent she is, so, if she did do it, it was an informed choice of her own free will. She can’t play the “I’m a poor little helpless girl who got seduced by the big bad man” card and get away with it, it seems to me. Maybe it is time to start the aversion technique now 😃 Its very kind of you to take the time to talk to me. I’m home alone and really bummed out. Not only do I think she did it, I think she’s _still_ doing it. “Aversion Technique”? Not entirely sure what you mean. I _think_ I have done that some, but mostly because she didn’t want me around. I think this latest thing of her giving the appearance of blowing the dude off, is because other people we’re starting to notice…and talk…and she’s just worried about her reputation. SO he stays away from her at work, and then they rendezvous afterwards. His wife is clueless evidently. I honestly think this is what’s happening. Is she worth it? God I wish I wasn’t so damned into her. I have never met anyone like her. She’s one of a kind buddy, and why she is willing to be “the other woman” when she could do so much better is beyond me. So explain this ‘aversion technique’? We’re you ever a loser like me? ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/68 "2008-10-03T17:01:24Z")
LOL I have been up and down so many times. I have been alpha and completely lost it again, and been not even beta, but an absolute mess. And anyone who wasn’t born with a silver spoon in their mouth and lived a life of luxury from then on has probably gone through similar things, only the details change. But I will say that you probably find it hard to remember the times you felt really on top of the world and alpha, whenever you get into a state of depression over a woman like this. The aversion technique is the one I referred to earlier, of taking around a jar of something really nasty to smell whenever you think of her too fondly. And I’m serious, that will work pretty quickly. Another is, if you imagine her wherever she may be, imagine there is a cord of light connecting the two of you. Now sever it, with an imaginary sharp blade, drop a guillotine onto it or something. Imagine she just gives a quick “WTF” look as you go “haha, see ya!” (adapted from some NLP thing I read somewhere) and she floats off, along with her environment, into the distance, never to return. Another was… in the book “The Game” I think. There must be some physical feature of hers that you are not all that crazy about. Imagine her now with that, whatever it is, growing, enlarging out of all proportion, until she looks ridiculous. It is almost like a mental version of the caricaturist’s art. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/69 "2008-10-03T17:09:37Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > LOL I have been up and down so many times. I have been alpha and completely lost it again, and been not even beta, but an absolute mess. And anyone who wasn’t born with a silver spoon in their mouth and lived a life of luxury from then on has probably gone through similar things, only the details change. > > But I will say that you probably find it hard to remember the times you felt really on top of the world and alpha, whenever you get into a state of depression over a woman like this. The aversion technique is the one I referred to earlier, of taking around a jar of something really nasty to smell whenever you think of her too fondly. And I’m serious, that will work pretty quickly. > > Another is, if you imagine her wherever she may be, imagine there is a cord of light connecting the two of you. Now sever it, with an imaginary sharp blade, drop a guillotine onto it or something. Imagine she just gives a quick “WTF” look as you go “haha, see ya!” (adapted from some NLP thing I read somewhere) and she floats off, along with her environment, into the distance, never to return. > > Another was… in the book “The Game” I think. There must be some physical feature of hers that you are not all that crazy about. Imagine her now with that, whatever it is, growing, enlarging out of all proportion, until she looks ridiculous. It is almost like a mental version of the caricaturist’s art. So what non-toxic, nasty smelling substance might you recommend? Something synthetic hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/70 "2008-10-03T17:19:43Z")
Hmmm… I don’t know actually, off the top of my head! LOL is there something acrid you can think of that you really hate? What’s that stuff that they used to paint on fingernails to deter nail-biting? ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/71 "2008-10-03T17:37:16Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > Hmmm… I don’t know actually, off the top of my head! LOL is there something acrid you can think of that you really hate? What’s that stuff that they used to paint on fingernails to deter nail-biting? No clue I’m afraid. I can’t really think of anything non-organic off the top of my head. Anyway, I just had a new fear that will work better. There is a supervisors position open at work. And while we we’re on break, she suggests that guess who might take the job. Her married boyfriend! If that happens I am screwed unless I totally stay away from her on breaks. The company does have a “non-fraternization” rule between supervisors and labor, but since it’s secret and consensual and by all appearances he is a respectable married man, who’s going to know? She already threatened sexual harassment a month ago, now she’s threatening my job again. Seems to me that’s aversion technique enough for me. She’s EVIL man. It occurs to me that you may have experience with [Instant Honesty](https://a314.com/product/instant-honesty/). Do you suppose I could use that to get her to spill the beans about the affair, thus providing me with some “Insurance” should her married bf get the supervisor position? ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/72 "2008-10-03T18:05:13Z")
I have experience with IO and beta-androstenol and mixing the two to make something that is kind of betanol-heavy and more similar to IH than IO, but I have not had much “honesty” out of it as such. But I’ve tended to hang around with fairly honest people with whom I have pretty meaningful conversations anyway, while wearing it. It’s early days for my betanol adventures; it’s only been like a fortnight that I’ve had it. Although one old guy told me a significant part of his life story in the gents the other day, I was wearing umm… 20mcg, maybe 30mcg of betanol. I thought it was significant because he broke the unspoken “urinal code” - guys don’t start conversations with each other when we’re pissing, not in my neck of the woods anyway, LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/73 "2008-10-03T18:16:29Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > I have experience with Instant Openness and beta-androstenol and mixing the two to make something that is kind of betanol-heavy and more similar to Instant Honesty than IO, but I have not had much “honesty” out of it as such. But I’ve tended to hang around with fairly honest people with whom I have pretty meaningful conversations anyway, while wearing it. > > It’s early days for my betanol adventures; it’s only been like a fortnight that I’ve had it. Although one old guy told me a significant part of his life story in the gents the other day, I was wearing umm… 20mcg, maybe 30mcg of betanol. I thought it was significant because he broke the unspoken “urinal code” - guys don’t start conversations with each other when we’re pissing, not in my neck of the woods anyway, LOL. LOL, if someone were to start a convo with me while pissing, I would suspect GAY. Plus I wouldn’t be able to piss…I have one of those bashful bladder phobias and in most cases, I use a stall instead of a urinal for privacy. In any case, I am expecting my shipment with the IH in it sometime within the hour. A fortnight is 2 weeks yes? ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/74 "2008-10-03T18:44:45Z")
yeah… a fortnight is 2 weeks. No the bloke wasn’t gay, I wouldn’t think - he indeed told me about his wife, holidays and… everything, haha. What else was I spraying… Ah yeah, the old blokes aren’t bothered by a heavy -none signature, or the old ladies, I guess they’re more visual - if you look like a thug they’ll avoid you, if you look friendly they’ll talk. But I love the memory-evoking self effects of beta-androstenol (I wrote about it elsewhere in this journal) if it does that to others too, in a good way, then it is going to be a permanent part of my phero-signature. I am going to order a gallon of the stuff, LOL ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/75 "2008-10-03T18:55:09Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > yeah… a fortnight is 2 weeks. No the bloke wasn’t gay, I wouldn’t think - he indeed told me about his wife, holidays and… everything, haha. What else was I spraying… Ah yeah, the old blokes aren’t bothered by a heavy -none signature, or the old ladies, I guess they’re more visual - if you look like a thug they’ll avoid you, if you look friendly they’ll talk. > > But I love the memory-evoking self effects of beta-androstenol (I wrote about it elsewhere in this journal) if it does that to others too, in a good way, then it is going to be a permanent part of my phero-signature. I am going to order a gallon of the stuff, LOL Memory evoking? In what way? The only self effect I have experienced so far (that I was aware of anyway) is depression because I used too many sprays of [Instant Female Magic](https://a314.com/product/instant-female-magic/)…killed my confidence. ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/76 "2008-10-03T19:00:45Z")
oh… I myself am IFM-neutral, and A1-neutral. I can spray lots and be OK. Memory evoking in the way that childhood memories pop into my head when I’m wearing it, but they’re not even memories as in with pictures and sounds, they’re more like… states. Feelings. But I know them from childhood. It’s weird. And very beautiful too. ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/77 "2008-10-03T19:11:40Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > oh… I myself am Instant Female Magic-neutral, and Androstadienone-neutral. I can spray lots and be OK. > Memory evoking in the way that childhood memories pop into my head when I’m wearing it, but they’re not even memories as in with pictures and sounds, they’re more like… states. Feelings. But I know them from childhood. It’s weird. And very beautiful too. Yea, that’s what I thought you meant. I am a musician ie the artistic type and have always been able to do that naturally, oft times a song can set me off. Did you say you were in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/78 "2008-10-03T19:19:09Z")
yep, I’m in the UK. Betanol is indeed a bit like music in that way, or if I watch a segment of any of the children’s TV shows that were current when I was a kid (they have quite a few on YouTube) it will evoke the memory “state” in the same way. Or a combination of the two even - the theme music to Rentaghost or something LOL. UK forum members of a certain age will know what I mean… ---
**Author:** ![Seraphim54](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/seraphim54/32/514_2.png) [@Seraphim54](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Seraphim54)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/79 "2008-10-03T19:27:42Z")
> [@ntk23](#): > > yep, I’m in the UK. Betanol is indeed a bit like music in that way, or if I watch a segment of any of the children’s TV shows that were current when I was a kid (they have quite a few on YouTube) it will evoke the memory “state” in the same way. Or a combination of the two even - the theme music to Rentaghost or something LOL. UK forum members of a certain age will know what I mean… So what day is it there? I gather by the amount of time you are spending answering my posts today, you aren’t at work lol. ---
**Author:** ![ntk23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/65b543/32.png) [@ntk23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ntk23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219/80 "2008-10-03T20:08:10Z")
Friday… 21:14 pm. It is Friday night. And I am doing very little, but going out tomorrow to a party, so gotta come up with a combo for that. I think I might try and OD on -none again, and A314, LOL. I’m in a funny mood this weekend, might do it for a laugh. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219.md?page=3) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/ntk23s-journal/17219.md?page=5)