# Paradox's paradoxes-The Ravings of an Alchemist **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Journals\ **Created:** [September 25, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527 "2011-09-25T17:24:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/101 "2014-02-21T20:41:03Z")
P96 Today I had on 25mcg’s of P96 with 3 sprays of TUTH. The reactions were similar to yesterday but people seemed a little standoffish today. The extra spray of TUTH even though it was only 2.5mcg’s per spray seemed to have spoiled it. People were still friendly but standofish. P96 is just another overhyped molecule. I may conclude the test with this molecule and put it in storage. I’m not impressed. It’s not doing anything special. TAA+Alpha Androstenol would do the same thing this molecule is doing. I will probably do a 100mcg test before I end my testing with P96. ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/102 "2014-02-22T12:25:21Z")
P96 @100 mcgs Yesterday, I wore 100mcg’s of P96 **Self Effects:** During the first hour I was extremely nervous and anxious. I felt like I was having a panic attack. I spent the fist hour talking myself down. **Effects on others:** Men around me were fidgety. Women seemed not to be responsive at all. No IOI’s, no unusual eye contact… I’m done testing P96. \*\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/103 "2014-03-11T15:43:44Z")
Molecule VL1 Does This Stuff Really Work or is it Simply Just Snake-Oil? Ive been experimenting with my own pherobomb with no success. However, in a seperate experiment I may have found something. I have made a homebrew with 151 rum (I could not find everclear) and molecule VL1. Following the Androtics model, I have named the molecule VL1 to protect its secret identity. There are so many substances that the pheromone community has not explored. Dbot had a simple formula for constructing a homebrew somewhere on the net. I followed that. I really, really do not want to get involved in the chemical side of the pheromone world but for me the progress is too slow. It is especially slow I believe because of the secrecy that each manufacturer has as to the effects of molecules…like here at androtics. Also, bad reporting plagues these pages as many testers observe and report poorly. I only really trust the reporting of a handful of posters. So here is my first report on molecule VL1: I mixed @2.5 ml of VL1 with @.5 ml of scented oil and @1.5 ml of 151 rum. This molecule at 2-3 sprays seems to produce a lovey dovey kind of vibe in the target. I had a theory that this molecule would have pheromonal properties. I am shocked that it does though. The reaction time is almost instant. I’d say under 30 seconds. I’ve used this twice with the same effect. In fact it kinda scared me as one of the targets is usually not that friendly. It may also have some effect on the memory and might even have some fallout. I put this away to experiment with my ph3robomb mix, mainly because I didn’t believe the results. I assumed the results were a product of wishful thinking. I am going to revisit this…maybe tomorrow. If I get the same or similar results then I will know it works. Feel like Thomas Edison… ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/104 "2014-03-13T13:07:30Z")
VL1 I wore 3 sprays of VL1 yesterday. I am so unsure of the reaction. This is why I don’t post everyday when I am testing. I like to test a substance and give a report about 4 weeks after testing starts. 4 weeks gives me time to test it everywhere and at different dosages. So back to yesterday’s test. I found one woman at the job extremely chatty. She usually offers me a smile or a good morning but today she was chatty. This could be normal chat since it was not sexual…but still for her it was chatty. She normally chats like this with me when I am wearing pheros which leads me to believe that this is indeed a pheromone. Now I just need to lock down what it is really doing. I had applied the 3 sprays earlier so I can’t tell yet if: 1. The molecule had converted on my skin (to a NOL or NONE) 2. The molecule was no longer active (6 hours later) 3. The molecule was still working I don’t know the longevity of this molecule. Other things noted from the day was that my male boss looked at me funny yesterday. Not sexually funny but I dunno what it was. Men are talkative also. Perhaps it is like Alpha Androstenol…however there are times that it reminds me of A1 (without the depression). There are no apparent self effects. I need to test this with other pheromones to see if it pops (shows its aspects). This may be one of those molecules that reacts better with other molecules. I also need to test this at higher dosages. ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/105 "2014-03-14T12:59:14Z")
How much am I wearing? Yesterday I wore 3 sprays of VL1 in the morning. This one guy was aggressive and argumentative with me. Yesterday afternoon, I washed off the VL1 and applied 3 sprays of VL1 with 2 drops of A314. I was hoping to see some sort of big reaction but…well one woman winked at me on her way out and another woman who wears glasses took them off for the afternoon. She wears glasses all of the time. I’m really beginning to think that VL1 is a good substitute for A1. It’s not a pushy molecule like NONE. It has a subtle effect but it does have an impact. I’m not a chemist so I have no Idea of how much VL1 I am wearing. I could be in the megadose range 100+ mcg or in the 2 mcg-100 mcg range. Math and measuring and mixing is not my strong suit but I am trying to move things along. Androtics has been testing the same putatives for well over 8 years and what is the result? Today I am wearing 2 sprays VL1 with 2 sprays of TUTH. ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/106 "2014-03-14T19:54:56Z")
2 sprays VL1 with 2 sprays of TUTH Today I am wearing 2 sprays VL1 with 2 sprays of TUTH. This is not a bad combo. I did get a wink from a co worker. That’s the second wink that I’ve gotten from a co worker in 2 days. I should call this molecule “Winky”… I’m not sure that it can be washed off with soap and hot water. I am going shopping later and I want to wear 4 sprays VL1 with 2 sprays of TUTH. Maybe I will try to wash it off. I have a feeling that it’s sticky like -NONE. ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/107 "2014-03-18T14:07:13Z")
VL1 One thing that I noticed is that VL1 reacts with A314 and TUTH. When I wore VL1 with A314 I got a wink. When I wore VL1 with TUTH I also got a wink. It is so damn subtile though. It’s really not a heavy hitter and may be working well with NONE. It is hitting though. I’ve never gotten winks when wearing any other pheromone combo. I don’t have straight NONE but I’ll work with TUTH. I’ll keep the VL1 at 2 sprays and try the TUTH at 3 then 4 sprays. I’ve noticed that VL1 works best at 2-3 sprays but again…what dosage of the molecule an I using…? I mixed another batch of VL1. This batch is: @1.0 ml of VL1 with @.5 ml of scented oil and @3.5 ml of cologne The batch is sealed. I’ll try it out soon. I’ve taken a day off from VL1 today. I also added 1.5 ml of VL1 to my ph3robomb. Let’s see if that brings the mixture to life. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_F](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/brian_f/32/1573_2.png) [@Brian\_F](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Brian_F)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/108 "2014-03-18T20:50:39Z")
What does VL stand for? ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/109 "2014-03-19T12:00:46Z")
VL1 > [@Brian\_F](#): > > What does VL stand for? **Vomeronasal Libavius. I just combined the term for the auxilery olfactory sense organ with the name of the alchemist/chemist Andreas Libavius.** **Just as the Alchemists of the 16th and 17th century were the forerunners to todays chemists, we the testers of this day are the forunners of the future pheremoneologists (is there such a term? I coined it here then.)** ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/110 "2014-03-21T17:42:19Z")
VL1 This is definately some weird stuff. Today I am wearing 3 sprays VL1 and 2 sprays TUTH. Nothing out of the ordinary today as many co-workers took today off. However, one female co worker started an conversation with me but had her arms folded (closed body language position). She left and came back a few minutes later to show me a pic of her dog. She came back again a few minutes later to talk about something else. It seems that the longer I wear this the stronger it gets. I mentioned in this post here [Paradox's paradoxes-The Ravings of an Alchemist - #104 by paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/104) something about the longevity. I still cant tell if the molecule is at the correct initial dosage. If it is not then that means I am wearing too much and it doesn’t settle in (diffuse) to the correct strength until 6 hours after the first app. I’m not sure if: 1. The molecule is converting on the skin and the end product is what is causing the positive reactions. 2. The diffusion is poor, which would cause late or delayed reaction. 3. This could just be the way the molecule acts (not likely). My theory is that due to my lack of mixing skills I did make a rudimentry discovery of a new molecule but I need to: - Improve the homebrew mix with good chemicals & accurate measurements (measuring, math and mixing how I hate thee). - Find a purer source for the molecule VL1 (easily done). - Clear up what this is doing at what dosage. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/111 "2014-03-22T03:04:56Z")
You may get some different results with purer alcohol. Vitamin D3 is a fairly unexplored one. Does work. Try fragranced perfumer’s alcohol. Many molecules believed mysterious really aren’t. They just aren’t often mentioned. I use a software tool that calculates structural analogues of, say, androsterone. I can then see if it has any known biological activity. It will also give me pretty much every known vendor, 3D structure, molecular properties, etc. I place my emphasis on the one’s I’m about 100% sure Androtics has or could get. There are many molecules with biological activity that you will not find mentioned in a pheromone context. The 3D geometry at key positions will determine it’s pheromonal likelihood. [Secosteroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secosteroids) I think some mones do have auto-oxidation just by being on the skin (like iron+air+H2O=rust). No bacteria. Just oxidation or reduction by being there. I think P75 and erone do. I am unable to verify this. I would say I don’t think all conversions are bacterial. The catalyst would just be air, UV light or an unstable molecule. Your wrists don’t really have smelly bacteria. So lets say maybe 75 has 2 or 3 OXO/Keto groups and one gets reduced? So, I like my P75, but with androstanone, I can actually look at the chemistry and tell something useful: hydrogen bonding fixatives or diffusive fragrances, stickiness on the skin, etc. I like putatives, but I like the large arsenal of knowledge named molecules have. D3 is dead cheap to make a spray. Nice to see some novelty in your work. Good luck. I guess we’ll have to see what the future holds at the ol’ Androtics/PheroTalk. Whatever I do put in a report is honest, but, I don’t put _everything_. Code it if you want to, I say. Maybe unblind at some future time or for select people to group test? ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/112 "2014-03-24T12:53:24Z")
> [@monesmadedoit](#): > > You may get some different results with purer alcohol. Try fragranced perfumer’s alcohol. yes, I resolved that…somewhat. This batch is mixed with cologne. I also found a source for PA on the net. It’s a perfume supplier. They sell Essential oils, soaps, PA, and DPG. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > Vitamin D3 is a fairly unexplored one. Does work. Many molecules believed mysterious really aren’t. They just aren’t often mentioned. Oh hell yeah! We know of about 40+ chemicals with pheromonal properties. What about the ones we are not aware of like VL1. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > I use a software tool that calculates structural analogues of, say, androsterone. I can then see if it has any known biological activity. It will also give me pretty much every known vendor, 3D structure, molecular properties, etc. I place my emphasis on the one’s I’m about 100% sure Androtics has or could get. The 3D geometry at key positions will determine it’s pheromonal likelihood. Im guessing that you have Chemical Activity Predictor software powered by GUSAR (a computational tool for creating quantitative structure-activity relationship (QSAR) models). Cool > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > Nice to see some novelty in your work. Good luck. Thanks Monesmadedoit. We have been at this Pherome thing for well over a decade with no real progress except for MHarris’s brilliant (no sarcasm) observation that skin mixing works better and is more efficient than bottle mixing. We have been skin mixing the same “Golden 13” chemicals with no breakthroughs. MHarris is a true genius and A314 (pre revision 30) is/was a work of art. I’m just trying to move the science forward. Wouldn’t it be great to have a product for seduction that is reliable, unoffensive, can be dosed properly, and works the same everytime you wear it? A314 (pre revision 30) does all of this but is not a seduction product …per se. I want to make a product that works. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > I guess we’ll have to see what the future holds at the ol’ Androtics/PheroTalk. Whatever I do put in a report is honest, but, I don’t put _everything_. Code it if you want to, I say. Yes, I’m like you I am an honest reporter. People read and rely on my opinion. I am humbled and honored that they do so. I put everything in my reports every nuance, every good or bad thing, no sugar coating…Just the Truth. Once I asked the question in a poll on here If you made “Love potion #9” what would you do. Some people voted that they would share the formula. Some people voted that they would keep it secret. Some said they would sell it to Androtics. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > Maybe unblind at some future time or for select people to group test? I do think about this from time to time. I really only trust my own opinion. I know my methods, I know my experience as a PUA and what it contributes to testing. I know when to take time off. I don’t mix molecules when I say I am testing something solo (yes, I’ve seen others do this). I don’t file false or imagined reports. Recently a vendor released a new product. One of his testers provided stellar reports on his product. As it turns out the product had ENONE, the testers had girlfriends. Of course there’s gonna be a reaction. Wives and girlfriends react positively to ENONE based products. But not so for strangers. For strangers you need more socials or something to make the ENONE palatable… What are the risks of mailing out samples of VL1 to other people? ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/113 "2014-03-24T13:30:37Z")
VL1 batch 2 This batch is: @1.0 ml of VL1 with @.5 ml of scented oil and @3.5 ml of cologne The batch has been sitting for about 10 days. Yesterday morning I wore 2 sprays and…nothing and I mean nothing no stares. no looks, no nothing. Disapointing. I went home and washed it off. Later I had to go to the grocery store. I wore 4 sprays and 2 drops of NPA (I don’t have pure ENONE yet). Wow!!! What a difference!! Women stopping their shopping cart. Looks! No following going on but good reactions. I go to check out and the woman next to me has trouble finding her debit card. Finally she finds it. She had dropped it on the ground. The cashier has the tip of her tounge pierced. How do I know because her tongue slid out a few times. Just the tip. It could be because the piercing is new. Often when a piercing is new people will play with it. I would say that it is just the NPA working but I have never gotten NPA to work for me. I documented this fact a few months ago on another forum. With each instance I am becoming more and more convinced that I am onto something great. VL1 seems to play very well with ENONE based products. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/114 "2014-03-24T15:30:56Z")
If I were to count them, maybe 140 potential pheromones, based upon mammalian studies or structure. If I look at androstenone, I look at any other androgens that look like they have bonds or substitutions in the right place. And then for abstracts on those. The molecule may work for rodent injections, but testing them as human **sprays** is a different matter. That’s what were doing here. Testing typically injected neurosteroids for medical research prepared as sprays. I’ve got a chem journal article of maybe dozens of 11 and 12 substituted progestagens all via bespoke synthesis, some with very low yield. So, that just scratches the surface. ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/115 "2014-03-24T18:00:17Z")
> [@monesmadedoit](#): > > If I were to count them, maybe 140 potential pheromones, based upon mammalian studies or structure. So, that just scratches the surface. It’s mind boggling when you think of it. Just doing the math on the possible combinations of 140 different pheromones…That doesn’t even factor in the possible ratios… Right now this science is just plain trial and error. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_F](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/brian_f/32/1573_2.png) [@Brian\_F](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Brian_F)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/116 "2014-03-26T10:48:36Z")
> [@paradox1](#): > > Right now this science is just plain trial and error. Hence why we like to think of it as a protoscience, and not quite an actual science. In the philosophy of science, there are several definitions of **protoscience**. **Protoscience is sometimes distinguished from pseudoscience by a willingness to be disproven by new evidence, or to be replaced by a more predictive theory.** \*\* Compare fringe science, which is considered highly speculative or even strongly refuted.[1] Some protosciences go on to become an accepted part of mainstream science.[2] Philosopher of chemistry Jaap Brakel defines protoscience as “the study of _normative_ criteria for the use of experimental technology in science.” On protoscience Thomas Kuhn said that they “generate testable conclusions but … nevertheless resemble philosophy and the arts rather than the established sciences in their developmental patterns. I think, for example, of fields like chemistry and electricity before the mid-eighteenth century, of the study of heredity and phylogeny before the mid-nineteenth, or of many of the social sciences today.” While noting that they meet the demarcation criteria of falsifiability from Popper, he questions whether the discussion in protoscience fields “result[s] in clear-cut progress”. Kuhn concluded that protoscience, “like the arts and philosophy, lack some element which, in the mature sciences, permits the more obvious forms of progress. It is not, however, anything that a methodological prescription can provide. … I claim no therapy to assist the transformation of a proto-science to a science, nor do I suppose anything of this sort is to be had”.[4] **Source** : [Protoscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoscience) There is an endless circuit of testable hypotheses, with a parade of variables to rule out. We use scientific techniques to clean up the testing procedure, and that’s always a work in progress. Small improvement over small improvement. Incremental improvements add up. Being paranoid about quality basics is important. Something so simple as cleanliness is tantamount to the testing procedure, but oft overlooked. There isn’t even dust in our formulating lab. And now, I’m sure, with me just saying that, all the other pheromone spinsters in pheromone world are going to adjust their store copy to say they work in a Class V Pharmaceutical Grade Clean Room Environment. Just watch. Nevertheless, it’s quality basics, constant thought checking, and road testing that precedes a good product or mix. You miss any of those, and you have missed them all. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/117 "2014-03-26T11:35:20Z")
I do know sometimes this stuff sounds like propaganda. However, I have seen some things about mones online that caused me to question the ethics of some websites selling pheros. These are vendors I previously thought ethical. This is not me playing Androtics sycophant. 1. Some comments about [P83](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p83/) test reports. Those comments alone cause me now to mistrust all products coming from one vendor. I wrote a report last year re. not getting hits off P83. It was a true report. 83 isn’t a bad molecule, but some people make it out to be what it is not. 2. I saw S\*\*\*\* L\*\*\* purporting to sell 99.9% pure androstenone. I don’t believe it. 3. L\*\*\*\*\* A\*\*\*\*\*\* L\*\*\* says of androstadienol it’s supposed to convert to alpha nol. Maybe. Via a 4-step REDOX to alpha nol, of which -eNone is an intermediate. Now, not being a degreed chemist, I’m not going to call them out by name. But I’ve checked reputable texts and that claim looks bogus to me. They should back it up or drop it. 4. I already mentioned L\*\*\* S\*\*\*\* selling reagent grade BNOL. That grade is not reference standard. It’s cheaper, because it’s an inferior grade. 5. A\*\*\*\* D\*\*\*\* was selling THDOC, one of the most exotic compounds, at frankly below wholesale prices. Supposedly an English lab (I suspect G\*\*\*\*\*\* Ltd). Forgive me being skeptical. Unless the guy was losing money on every sale, I don’t see how an English lab sells top-grade product at dirt cheap vs. North American labs. I don’t think phero boards need to read like the increasingly arcane Wikipedia articles. But many claims are made out there that hoodwink the consumer. I’m not saying that Androtics has been divinely anointed the fairest of them all. I am saying I’m seeing websites with very confusing if not frankly misleading info. Putatives don’t always live up to hype, but they aren’t faked, adulterated or sold with bogus marketing. There’s no pictures of stock-footage web models next to P79. I give credit to paradox for some healthy skepticism. Now, I know what would happen if I asked those tough questions on those vendor sites. They aren’t ready to handle the truth. Tell me, S\*\*\*\* L\*\*\*, did you fake that -eNone COA and the pics of your state-of-the-art lab? Where’d you buy the 99.9% pure molecule from? Sorry for hijacking the journal Paradox. ---
**Author:** ![lwatkins](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lwatkins/32/472_2.png) [@lwatkins](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/lwatkins)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/118 "2014-03-26T14:02:54Z")
I am willing to believe that exotic compounds could occasionally be distributed or sold at below wholesale prices, as the cost of production exceeds what the market has justified. Someone is set up to produce something for researchers, then the original buyers move on. It’s hard to justify the product’s value if we don’t have much published data on it - at least not known to the general public. A business needs to move product, sometimes even at a loss. By giving some away we get more data and also get some attention to the product and it’s vendor. That in itself has value. A product that nobody uses has no real value. Growing the market requires adding value. The general public is still quite skeptical of the very concept of pheros doing anything. Of course I’m still skeptical. But I’m less skeptical if the vendor has other things they are making money on, on balance. That’s why I have some respect for AD. And I can see a smaller vendor maybe snagging one or two research standard compounds as token status symbol (keeping up with the Jones), because they have AD to compete with. I do feel that we get real data on exotic compounds in part because the hype leads people to actually try it out. it’s infuriating of course when a putative doesn’t live up to the the hype, but it does get actual reports. Anyone who’s ready my reports on [P83](https://a314.com/product/p83/) can see how differently things went down from the earlier hype I had read. In my line of work, broadcast television, there are entire networks that loose money - even for a decade. But they can be supported by other networks that make money, perhaps because they can demonstrate that as a broadcaster we can do things other broadcasters can’t do, or it’s part of our image, or because we are pushing technology forward as part of a larger agenda, or in other cases simply because there will be a big payoff 10 years later when we can sell off that airspace for exponentially more than the original purchase. Some companies go a lot farther than others to support a certain image or industry agenda, or hopes of a long-term payoff. It’s a gamble, and skepticism is healthy. Sometimes we fake it until we make it. If half of what you do is hype with some potential, and the other half is reasonably shown to be true an actually works, that’s contemporary politics. I’ve got more respect for a venue where I can be sure which is which. AD does a great job of not over-hyping the experimental, though this board to some degree can go in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![paradox1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/paradox1/32/1196_2.png) [@paradox1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/paradox1)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/119 "2014-03-27T12:31:24Z")
> [@monesmadedoit](#): > > I do know sometimes this stuff sounds like propaganda. However, I have seen some things about mones online that caused me to question the ethics of some websites selling pheros. These are vendors I previously thought ethical. This is not me playing Androtics sycophant. This is exactly why I got into testing. So many vendors are market savy and are selling garbage pheromones in a beautiful package. One thing that I really like about Androtics and I said this on other forums is that Androtics’ consumer line products do **exactly** what they say they will do. I made the mistake of wearing IH around my friends once and I blurted out something that I didn’t really mean to say…oops. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > 1. Some comments about P83 test reports. Those comments alone cause me now to mistrust all products coming from one vendor. I wrote a report last year re. not getting hits off P83. It was a true report. 83 isn’t a bad molecule, but some people make it out to be what it is not. If you are African American you may want to see my posts about P83 here: [https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/88](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/88) [https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/90](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/90) > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > 1. I saw S\*\*\*\* L\*\*\* purporting to sell 99.9% pure androstenone. I don’t believe it. If someone is selling it I’m sure they can afford it. Androstenone is kinda cheap. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > 1. I already mentioned L\*\*\* S\*\*\*\* selling reagent grade BNOL. That grade is not reference standard. It’s cheaper, because it’s an inferior grade. Yeah the term “reagent grade” is a common term in the pheromone world now but it seems to not be clearly defined. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > 1. A\*\*\*\* D\*\*\*\* was selling THDOC, one of the most exotic compounds, at frankly below wholesale prices. Supposedly an English lab (I suspect G\*\*\*\*\*\* Ltd). Forgive me being skeptical. Unless the guy was losing money on every sale, I don’t see how an English lab sells top-grade product at dirt cheap vs. North American labs. Many Pheromone suppliers have taken on the Androtics pricing model where they charge the same or similar prices across the board for all molecules. So a cheap pheromone like Androstenone is overpriced and a exotic pheromone like THDOC is underpriced. It evens out for them in the end. Also the feedback from field use of the exotic molecules is valuable. > [@monesmadedoit](#): > > Sorry for hijacking the journal Paradox. No problem. I’ve raised many of your concerns myself. ---
**Author:** ![monesmadedoit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/monesmadedoit/32/325_2.png) [@monesmadedoit](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/monesmadedoit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527/120 "2014-03-27T20:23:21Z")
I have it on very good authority that the seller of -eNone in question actually used faked analysis results posted to their website. Companies have broad freedom in marketing, but using doctored test reports to me is unacceptable. I would be willing to send Brian the link as to that eNone report. When the admins here have said that there is some serious BS in the phero world, they aren’t kidding. One of the most veteran phero users, by admitting fake tests, he just lost massive credibility. Fake tests and sockpuppet accounts to me a really unethical tactics. Shame! And that person in question regarding the [P83](https://pheromonelabs.com/product/p83/), he knows who he is, shame on him! The phero world **does not** need more overhyped fakery. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527.md?page=5) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/paradoxs-paradoxes-the-ravings-of-an-alchemist/52527.md?page=7)