# Pheremone Shelf Life **URL:** \ **Category:** Pheromone Theory & Molecules\ **Created:** [November 18, 2006, 8:11am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910 "2006-11-18T08:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![vanyel5](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/vanyel5/32/416_2.png) [@vanyel5](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/vanyel5)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/21 "2007-03-02T20:17:22Z")
lol..thank you ALL for your help…i love learning something new..and the whole biological/chemical thing with pheromones is absolutely fascinating to me. i appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and i hope i can sit still in front of the computer long enough to check out people’s experiences with each pheromone. joseph ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/22 "2007-03-07T12:14:14Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > Gay men still have male pheromones, just in different ratios then straight men. A gay man still wouldn’t be interested in a “woman” even if the scent is worn by a man. Being gay isn’t a “choice”, it’s biochemical, hence the different pheromone ratios. I know this isn’t the place for this discussion, but homosexuality is not determined by your biochemistry, it is an acquired psychological impairment - there hasn’t been a discovery of a ‘gay’ gene, nor is there any reason to think people are born gay considering that sexuality isn’t established until an individual hits puberty. Plus, the arguement that somebody is born gay is ludicrous, considering you’d have to take into account those who are bisexual, and also those with extreme sexual perversions. Now, hormonal levels can fluxuate with each individual, but that does not dictate anybodys sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![TheLustEquation](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/thelustequation/32/355_2.png) [@TheLustEquation](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/TheLustEquation)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/23 "2007-03-07T16:41:51Z")
I could give you a few peer-reviewed scientific journal articles that would suggest otherwise. Evidence suggests there is a gay gene… Page, L. Genes and Behavior. Biology Digest, vol 28, pp.10-15, April 2002. Travis, J. X Chromosome Again Linked to Homosexuality. Science News, vol. 148, no. 19, pp295, November 4, 1995. Begley, S. Nature Plus Nurture. Newsweek, vol. 126, no. 20, pp. 72, November 13, 1995. There is “counter research” questioning the ethics and accuracy of these studies, but so far the research seems to be on the ball so to speak: Kaiser, Jocelyn. No Misconduct in “Gay Gene” Study. Science, Vol. 275, issue 5304, p 1251, Feb 1997. I also remember reading an article or two about fun fruit fly studies where by splicing a “gay gene” into the male fruit flies, the behavior of these flies became that of a female fruit fly; the male would try to find sexually active other males. I couldn’t find the original article in the last 5 minutes of searching however… ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/24 "2007-03-07T18:51:43Z")
Additionally, when I have time, I’ll find a study that showed that when exposed to pheromones, gay men’s brains reacted like women’s brains, not like men’s. Besides, why would men _choose_ to have relations with other men and be discriminated against to the point of imprisonment or death? Makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/25 "2007-03-07T19:11:43Z")
> [@TheLustEquation](#): > > I could give you a few peer-reviewed scientific journal articles that would suggest otherwise. > > Evidence suggests there is a gay gene… > > Page, L. Genes and Behavior. Biology Digest, vol 28, pp.10-15, April 2002. > > Travis, J. X Chromosome Again Linked to Homosexuality. Science News, vol. 148, no. 19, pp295, November 4, 1995. > > Begley, S. Nature Plus Nurture. Newsweek, vol. 126, no. 20, pp. 72, November 13, 1995. > > There is “counter research” questioning the ethics and accuracy of these studies, but so far the research seems to be on the ball so to speak: > > Kaiser, Jocelyn. No Misconduct in “Gay Gene” Study. Science, Vol. 275, issue 5304, p 1251, Feb 1997. > > I also remember reading an article or two about fun fruit fly studies where by splicing a “gay gene” into the male fruit flies, the behavior of these flies became that of a female fruit fly; the male would try to find sexually active other males. I couldn’t find the original article in the last 5 minutes of searching however… I can give you a phone number to a local psychiatrist that would suggest that it is all mind games. The fact is we are all born with sexual ‘tendencies’ which is nothing more than a broader perspective on acquired attraction. Again, if it were either/or how do you or the scientific community explain bisexuality - a way of life that has been grasped for thousands if not millions of years. Animals have a distinct sexual drive that is instinctive where a deeper psychological role is nonexistant. Animals in other words would have sex with anything - ie. my dog humps his stuffed animal. If you tamper with any creatures biochemistry enough, then you’re bound to find some kind of biased results. Also, I find it humorous that they spliced this ‘gay gene’ into fruit flies when there is no such discovery. Science has a means of contradicting itself on occassion, and this is certainly an area of uneven proportions. They’ll be looking forever, but they’ll never find this mysterious ‘gay gene’ because it is psychological, which in turn effects the biological. I’m attracted to females, but not all females, there is an acquired attraction at work. Pedophiles develop an acquired attraction to children simply by pure fantasy, which in turn effects their biological levels (mind/body connection). The same thing can be said about necrophiles - it is an acquired attraction. Now, I’m not putting these on the same level as homosexuals, because there is a difference in consent when it comes to the actual act, but it is nothing more than acquired attraction. People can do what they feel as long as it is within the law, but don’t try to justify your actions by saying you were born that way, otherwise we may have to consider the same thing for perverts, and sexual predators. Also, this has sparked an increase in stereotypical observation where society has adapted this need to ‘expose’ those who are ‘in the closet’ for those who are less dominant than others in social situations. Nobody can make the observation, and draw the conclusion that somebody is ‘gay’ by simply looking at them. That in itself is preposterous all on its’ own. That would be like looking at a line-up, and distinguishing a potential sexual predator from a good citizen of the community - an impossible task by mere observation. ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/26 "2007-03-07T19:21:06Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > Additionally, when I have time, I’ll find a study that showed that when exposed to pheromones, gay men’s brains reacted like women’s brains, not like men’s. Besides, why would men _choose_ to have relations with other men and be discriminated against to the point of imprisonment or death? Makes no sense. That’s easy, and it’s for the simple reason of human nature altogether. People feel compelled to do things that are otherwise looked down upon all of the time. Rape is considered a horrific act that would lead to a mans death in prison, yet it happens all of the time. It’s an underlying perverted attraction that overtakes logic. ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/27 "2007-03-07T20:22:05Z")
**Brain response to [putative pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/product-category/advanced-pheromones/putative-pheromones/) in lesbian women.** **Berglund H** (["Berglund H"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Berglund+H%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Lindstrom P** (["Lindstrom P"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Lindstrom+P%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Savic I** (["Savic I"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Savic+I%22%5BAuthor%5D)). Department of Medicine, and Stockholm Brain Institute, Karolinska University Hospital, Karolinska Institutet, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden. The progesterone derivative 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like steroid estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST) are candidate compounds for human pheromones. In previous positron emission tomography studies, we found that smelling AND and EST activated regions primarily incorporating the sexually dimorphic nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus, **that this activation was differentiated with respect to sex and compound, and that homosexual men processed AND congruently with heterosexual women rather than heterosexual men. These observations indicate involvement of the anterior hypothalamus in physiological processes related to sexual orientation in humans.** We expand the information on this issue in the present study by performing identical positron emission tomography experiments on 12 lesbian women. **In contrast to heterosexual women, lesbian women processed AND stimuli by the olfactory networks and not the anterior hypothalamus. Furthermore, when smelling EST, they partly shared activation of the anterior hypothalamus with heterosexual men.** These data support our previous results about differentiated processing of pheromone-like stimuli in humans and _further strengthen the notion of a coupling between hypothalamic neuronal circuits and sexual preferences._ Publication Types: - [Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t](javascript:AL\_get(this, ‘ptyp’, 'Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't ')😉 PMID: 16705035 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/28 "2007-03-07T22:51:05Z")
**Brain response to [putative pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/product-category/advanced-pheromones/putative-pheromones/) in homosexual men.** **Savic I** (["Savic I"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Savic+I%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Berglund H** (["Berglund H"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Berglund+H%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Lindstrom P** (["Lindstrom P"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Lindstrom+P%22%5BAuthor%5D)). Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska University Hospital, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden. [ivanka.savic-berglund@neuro.ki.se](mailto:ivanka.savic-berglund@neuro.ki.se) The testosterone derivative 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like steroid estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST) are candidate compounds for human pheromones. AND is detected primarily in male sweat, whereas EST has been found in female urine. In a previous positron emission tomography study, we found that smelling AND and EST activated regions covering sexually dimorphic nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus, and that this activation was differentiated with respect to sex and compound. In the present study, the pattern of activation induced by AND and EST was compared among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. **In contrast to heterosexual men, and in congruence with heterosexual women, homosexual men displayed hypothalamic activation in response to AND. Maximal activation was observed in the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus, which, according to animal studies, is highly involved in sexual behavior**. As opposed to putative pheromones, common odors were processed similarly in all three groups of subjects and engaged only the olfactory brain (amygdala, piriform, orbitofrontal, and insular cortex). **These findings show that our brain reacts differently to the two putative pheromones compared with common odors, and suggest a link between sexual orientation and hypothalamic neuronal processes.** Publication Types: - [Comparative Study](javascript:AL\_get(this, ‘ptyp’, 'Comparative Study ')😉 - [Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t](javascript:AL\_get(this, ‘ptyp’, 'Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't ')😉 PMID: 15883379 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/29 "2007-03-07T22:53:36Z")
**Preference for human body odors is influenced by gender and sexual orientation.** **Martins Y** (["Martins Y"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Martins+Y%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Preti G** (["Preti G"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Preti+G%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Crabtree CR** ([pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Crabtree+CR%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Runyan T** (["Runyan T"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Runyan+T%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Vainius AA** (["Vainius AA"[Author] - Search Results - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Vainius+AA%22%5BAuthor%5D)), **Wysocki CJ** ([http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed\_Abstract&term="Wysocki+CJ"[Author]](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_Abstract&term=%22Wysocki+CJ%22%5BAuthor%5D)). Monell Chemical Senses Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA. [yolanda.martins@flinders.edu.au](mailto:yolanda.martins@flinders.edu.au) Human body odor may contribute to selection of partners. If so, sexual orientation may influence preference for and perhaps production of human body odors. In a test of these hypotheses, heterosexual and homosexual males and females made two-alternative forced-choice preference judgments for body odors obtained from other heterosexual and homosexual males and females. Subjects chose between odors from (a) heterosexual males and gay males, (b) heterosexual males and heterosexual females, (c) heterosexual females and lesbians, and (d) gay males and lesbians. **Results indicate that differences in body odor are detected and responded to on the basis of, in part, an individual’s gender and sexual orientation.** Possible mechanisms underlying these findings are discussed. Publication Types: - [Comparative Study](javascript:AL\_get(this, ‘ptyp’, 'Comparative Study ')😉 - [Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t](javascript:AL\_get(this, ‘ptyp’, 'Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't ')😉 PMID: 16137255 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/30 "2007-03-07T23:02:58Z")
Kohl, JV (2005) [Human Pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/), Neuroscience, and Male Homosexual Orientation. International Behavioral Development Symposium. Minot, ND, Aug 3-6.[FULL TEXT](http://www.entelechyjournal.com/kohl2.html)available with an [introductory article](http://www.entelechyjournal.com/kohl.html)in the Fall 2005/Winter 2006 issue of [Entelechy: Mind and Culture](http://www.entelechyjournal.com/kohl.html). You know, I could go on, but do I really need to??😃 ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 10:01am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/31 "2007-03-08T10:01:41Z")
> [@TheLustEquation](#): > > This is mostly on-topic… :o > > I noticed that there are at least 2 solvents used to store our lovely pheromones: an oil-base and an alcohol spray. > > \ > > (and before its brought up, I wouldn’t assume people out there are mixing the oils with the alcohols. I was more wondering if there were many different alcohols or different oils used for the purposes of optimizing 1 and 2) I think the diluent in the “oil” of A314 is DPG. I think that the diluent of the other products is usually formulator’s alcohol (sd-40 ethanol, Bitrex, DPG). If you look at a spectrum of pure DPG to formulator’s alcohol, I suspect that one or two items land in the pure DPG area (A314, Oil of TAA) at the ‘far left’ and most of the rest are pure formulator’s alcohol at the ‘far right’ … still, I would allow for some products having additional DPG added to the forumulator’s alcohol. I mix the ‘mutant’ version of A314 (oil) with formulator’s alcohol in the ratio of 1 : 4 and it works fine: sprays easily, disperses well, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 10:11am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/32 "2007-03-08T10:11:11Z")
> [@mindset](#): > > \ > > homosexuality is not determined by your biochemistry, it is an acquired psychological impairment > > \ > > Plus, the arguement that somebody is born gay is ludicrous, considering you’d have to take into account those who are bisexual, and also those with extreme sexual perversions. Now, hormonal levels can fluxuate with each individual, but that does not dictate anybodys sexuality. I say: your position that homosexuality is not determined by biochemistry is unsubstantiated. You are welcome to try to prove a negative, but the history of logic is against you. I say: the argument that people are born gay is not only highly plausible (whether there is a gay gene or not), but the theories of in utero hormonal disposition of brain development DO account for bisexuality. “Extreme perversion” – whatever that might be – has nothing to do with gender identity nor with mate gender / sex orientation. I appreciate the limits of your current perspective, but urge you to consider science as a potential means of illuminating the issue. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/33 "2007-03-08T13:20:29Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > I say: your position that homosexuality is not determined by biochemistry is unsubstantiated. You are welcome to try to prove a negative, but the history of logic is against you. > > I say: the argument that people are born gay is not only highly plausible (whether there is a gay gene or not), but the theories of in utero hormonal disposition of brain development DO account for bisexuality. > > “Extreme perversion” – whatever that might be – has nothing to do with gender identity nor with mate gender / sex orientation. > > I appreciate the limits of your current perspective, but urge you to consider science as a potential means of illuminating the issue. > > Cheers [Is There a “Gay Gene”?](http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html) [The Fading “Gay Gene”](http://www.narth.com/docs/fading.html) [BBC News | Sci/Tech | Doubt cast on ‘gay gene’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/325979.stm) [Biology, my ass.](http://web.archive.org/web/20040105072257/staffweb.lib.uiowa.edu/ktonella/oob/features/Biology.htm) [Bad Subjects: Rejecting the Gay Brain (and choosing homosexuality)](http://bad.eserver.org/issues/1994/14/sartelle.html) [No Easy Link Between Genes, Behavior / DNA Studies Dash Quest for Easy Answers / Genome’s link to behavior hard to prove](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL) [In Search of the ‘Gay Gene’ (washingtonpost.com)](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A23722-2001Feb18) [Sexual Orientation: Binaries and Definition Problems.](http://www.fsw.ucalgary.ca/ramsay/homosexuality-suicide/construction/a1-sexual-orientation-binary.htm) [frontline: assault on gay america: who’s gay? what’s straight?: how do you define sexual orientation?](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/context/defining.html) [Exploding the Gene Myth](http://gender.eserver.org/exploding-the-gene-myth.html) [http://www.gene-watch.org/educational/genes\_and\_sexuality.pdf](http://www.gene-watch.org/educational/genes_and_sexuality.pdf) [The Gene Letter by GeneSage - Archives](http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html) [The Gay Gene?](http://www.stonewallrevisited.com/issues/gene.html) [VDARE.com: 08/17/03 - Gay Gene Or Gay Germ?](http://www.vdare.com/sailer/gay_gene.htm) ^^^should be enough to substantiate my claims. The entire genome has been mapped out, and there isn’t a gay-gene to be found. I wonder why? 😕 The issue isn’t even about whether or not it is biological, though. It is about tolerance, and while I do hold a biased point of view (I am religious), it is unacceptable to hold hate against those with differences. It is quite clear that this is an area where science will continue to contradict itself on end, and where the mainstream media will take advantage of publicizing misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/34 "2007-03-08T16:27:30Z")
I personally don’t hold much expectation that a gay gene exists; macrogenetic theory suggests that such a gay gene would become extinct in a few generations if dominant and expressed directly; a recessive gene could theoretically be broadly distributed in the world population and expressed indirectly – but generation after generation of selective non-breeding would trim the incidence of even a recessive gene. (I am specifically disregarding any chromosomal source of sexual orientation in this essay.) Look at other **terminally non-reproductive genetic expressions (TNRGEs)**, and you see that after generations, the incidence of those genes being expressed is one in a thousand, or one in ten thousand, or one in a hundred thousand. Not one in twelve – the exclusively homosexual population seems to be fairly constant at four to eight percent over time. For centuries. I’d say that TNRGE is the appropriate reference group … Unless, of course, you define homosexuals as individuals who do reproduce … 🙄 I’ve never seen a genetic model that gives me much hope or reason to expect that a gay gene can be found – not if it means a gene that is determinative of sexual orientation. * * * However, my take is that sexual orientation is multilayered and mostly determined by the levels of male and female horomones at various points of gestation _in utero_. The brain’s “wiring” or dynamic patterning is influenced as it develops in response to hormone levels. Most of those hard-wired patterns are not evident until puberty triggers them with rising hormone levels. Now, there may be some genes that, while not determinative of sexual orientation, may _incidentally_ produce physical expressions that will be more responsive to hormonal levels or imbalances in androgen and estrogen. Some might call such a putative gene a “gay gene” though I would not. Perhaps the multilayered aspect of sexual orientation means that there are not just homo- hetero- and bi- sexuality, but hundreds of homosexualities, hundreds of heterosexualities, and hundreds of bisexualities. * * * Looking only at male homosexuality for a moment: At the macroscopic socio-biological level, consider a “normal” population during peaceful, non-stressful times: a small percentage of the population is homosexual because even during general peace, there will be some males born whose mothers are in a state of stress during pregnancy or whose hormones are imbalanced at critical times during foetal development. Now consider the same population during extreme social stress: famine, or war. The number of pregnancies may decline or increase, but the percentage of male children who are born homosexual increases as the number of women who experience stress that imbalances hormones increases. In famine, they won’t burden the population with still more children; in war, they will bond with other males on the front line and not leave children back home who are fatherless. If the social stress is less physical and more abstract, then homosexual males serve a larger social purpose as artists and in other capacities – as priests or shamans – dedicated to something other than raising a family. Adult males who don’t father children are part of the social structure of all primate species. Homosexuality is found throughout nature in many other species that don’t have “choice”. It’s part of the “leverage” of the population, to produce “utility infielders” who can be called on in times of stress. I personally would rather have non-breeders (aka homosexuals) manning nuclear reactors … and X-ray machines in hospitals … and performing cleanup of mutagenic Hazmat spills … wouldn’t you? * * * Not so long ago, the typical human nomadic tribe might consist of fifty males and three or four females. What do you think the forty-six or forty-seven males who didn’t get to sleep with a female did at night? It’s remarkable that we’ve advanced (?) to a point where so many more males get to reproduce genetically. In most current day western societies there is a slight majority (0.3%) of females in the population, which results in unsatisfied demand for (breeding) males at every age past puberty. (One explanation of why males can “appropriate” more of the economic benefits of living with a woman.) But I wonder what the excess **8.7%** of males in current day China do at night, given that there are 119 males born for every 100 girls in China. So where does that leave us? Casting doubt on the existence of a gay gene doesn’t do much to advance the argument that sexual orientation is a choice. (Except perhaps for a very, very few very enlightened bisexuals of a particular kind.) If you have religious beliefs that require you to disbelieve in some things that others consider scientific, well, I say that’s all right … we all have attitudes and values that defy reason. ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/35 "2007-03-09T00:09:54Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > However, my take is that sexual orientation is multilayered and mostly determined by the levels of male and female horomones at various points of gestation _in utero_. The brain’s “wiring” or dynamic patterning is influenced as it develops in response to hormone levels. Most of those hard-wired patterns are not evident until puberty triggers them with rising hormone levels. This is my whole take on the issue. There is no “gay gene” needed. We are “its” through the early part of gestation, then a surge of hormones from the mother determines out gender. Testosterone makes males, estrogen makes female. Should there be a weak surge, a gay male, of female. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:19am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/36 "2007-03-09T04:19:05Z")
> [@Mtnjim](#): > > This is my whole take on the issue. There is no “gay gene” needed. We are “its” through the early part of gestation, then a surge of hormones from the mother determines out gender. Testosterone makes males, estrogen makes female. Should there be a weak surge, a gay male, of female. There are at least eight, perhaps ten “sex-related charters” (perhaps more) that cluster around physical sexual anatomy and sexual orientation: - Gender (regardless of my anatomy, what sex do I identify as / feel myself to be) - Social strategy (cooperative versus competitive) - Belonging (inclusive versus exclusive) - Expressing sexuality (relating / who **we** are [together] versus objectifying / what **I** do, or what I do to another) - Muscle tone (low tone / softness versus high tone / muscularity) - Kinesiology (physical elegance / light touch versus physical energy / strong touch) - Pair bonding (“nest” versus “co-adventurers”) - Conceptual model dominance (linguistic vs spatial) - Time (cyclicality versus vector) - Dominance / submission – degree to which an individual is attuned to dominance and submission “politics” as well as where the individual is comfortable on the scale. These “charters” develop at different points in gestation and an imbalance in the androgen / estrogen ratios can derail the “default” pattern of any one of these charters without necessarily producing a “flip” in other charters. So you can have an ultrafeminine man, whose gestures, manner of speech, and even whose thinking patterns and social strategies are “feminine” – but who is entirely heterosexual. A transgendered male (MtF) attracted to other males doesn’t identify as homosexual – she considers herself to be a woman trapped in a man’s body, a woman who happens to be attracted to the opposite gender. I think that it’s interesting that male homosexuality occurs more frequently than female homosexuality. A reasonable guess is about 3 homosexual males to 1 homosexual female. I submit to you that it is, by nature, the essential role of the male to be “deviant” – to be, structurally, a source of biodiversity within the species. The female is the default pattern of our species; every male is a variant. And when _in utero_ conditions are disturbed, the male template is more likely to be reinvented/recast. The “charter stereotype” male is, of course, anatomically male (with larger sex organs, of course, and producing greater volumes of sperm which are more vigorous) – and thinks of himself as “all male” and is attracted only to women. Furthermore, he is highly competitive, rejecting of those who do not deserve to associate with him (exclusive), treats women as objects and identifies in terms of what he does (e.g. plays football), has well-developed musculature and high muscle tone, is naturally “rough and ready” rather than delicate or elegant, bonds with others based on what they do together, understands how to put a car together after taking it apart but does not understand sonnets, and has pragmatic concepts of space and time. And of course, is the alpha, dominant male. Lucky for us, life is richer than any stereotype.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/37 "2007-03-09T19:48:38Z")
Today most psychologists don’t see sexuality as Black/White. Instead, they see it as a long scale going from black through lighter and lighter shades of gray to white. With most people in neither the black or white, but falling somewhere along the gray scale. ---
**Author:** ![Rbt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rbt/32/2066_2.png) [@Rbt](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Rbt)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/38 "2007-03-12T00:23:24Z")
To get to the main point as I have come to understand it via the various sources I have scanned, classes I’ve taken, etc (no I can’t quote exact citations… ): There is no single “gay” gene. That is true. There is no simple “on/off” switch. However being “gay” IS determined more by overall genetic makeup and interactions between biologically determined facets of who we are. Although it can be influenced on a conscious level (eg repressed); “gay” men/women can marry and have children (social level). My opinion. And A) _If_ this discussion continues it should get it’s own thread. B) This topic of genetic vs conscious choice in re: gay behavior is not overly relevant to pheromone use and really doesn’t belong on this forum at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mtnjim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mtnjim/32/2010_2.png) [@Mtnjim](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mtnjim)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/39 "2007-03-12T18:48:28Z")
> [@Rbt](#): > > …gay behavior is not overly relevant to pheromone use… Actually, 99.5% of my posts on the matter have been specifically pheromone related (ratios etc.).😃🙄 But I do agree about tis own thread! ---
**Author:** ![Lor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/lor/32/759_2.png) [@Lor](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Lor)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910/40 "2007-03-13T03:54:02Z")
> [@mindset](#): > > [Is There a “Gay Gene”?](http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html) > [The Fading “Gay Gene”](http://www.narth.com/docs/fading.html) > [BBC News | Sci/Tech | Doubt cast on ‘gay gene’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/325979.stm) > [Biology, my ass.](http://web.archive.org/web/20040105072257/staffweb.lib.uiowa.edu/ktonella/oob/features/Biology.htm) > [Bad Subjects: Rejecting the Gay Brain (and choosing homosexuality)](http://bad.eserver.org/issues/1994/14/sartelle.html) > [No Easy Link Between Genes, Behavior / DNA Studies Dash Quest for Easy Answers / Genome’s link to behavior hard to prove](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/02/13/MN87077.DTL) > [In Search of the ‘Gay Gene’ (washingtonpost.com)](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A23722-2001Feb18) > [Sexual Orientation: Binaries and Definition Problems.](http://www.fsw.ucalgary.ca/ramsay/homosexuality-suicide/construction/a1-sexual-orientation-binary.htm) > [frontline: assault on gay america: who’s gay? what’s straight?: how do you define sexual orientation?](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/context/defining.html) > [Exploding the Gene Myth](http://gender.eserver.org/exploding-the-gene-myth.html) > [http://www.gene-watch.org/educational/genes\_and\_sexuality.pdf](http://www.gene-watch.org/educational/genes_and_sexuality.pdf) > [The Gene Letter by GeneSage - Archives](http://web.archive.org/web/20031231202804/http://www.geneletter.com/archives/homosexuality.html) > [The Gay Gene?](http://www.stonewallrevisited.com/issues/gene.html) > [VDARE.com: 08/17/03 - Gay Gene Or Gay Germ?](http://www.vdare.com/sailer/gay_gene.htm) > > ^^^should be enough to substantiate my claims. > > The entire genome has been mapped out, and there isn’t a gay-gene to be found. I wonder why? 😕 > > The issue isn’t even about whether or not it is biological, though. It is about tolerance, and while I do hold a biased point of view (I am religious), it is unacceptable to hold hate against those with differences. It is quite clear that this is an area where science will continue to contradict itself on end, and where the mainstream media will take advantage of publicizing misinformation. of course. before i got to this post i guessed you were religious. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910.md?page=1) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheremone-shelf-life/910.md?page=3)