# 'Pheromones for pickup' strategies **URL:** \ **Category:** Pheromone Theory & Molecules\ **Created:** [October 5, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873 "2007-10-05T11:44:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wrlprchnx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wrlprchnx/32/1360_2.png) [@Wrlprchnx](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Wrlprchnx)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/21 "2009-03-27T16:57:34Z")
So essentially - Rone strong mixes require a little more game for same night attraction, but tend to produce numbers that are less likely to flake? None strong mixes require less game for same night, but are much more likely to flake afterwards? ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/22 "2009-04-01T12:18:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Socrates > [Pheromones for Pickup: Attraction, Comfort, Seduction](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-attraction-comfort-seduction/832/1) > Jasmin (November 3, 2006): > “ Pheromones for Pickup: Attraction, Comfort, Seduction > Which pheromones do you guys use for each phase of seduction, in terms of something like the Mystery Method or Neil Strauss’ Game? > > We were thinking something like this: > > Attraction: Instant Openness or Liquid Sunshine + Instant Shine + small amount of Turn Up The Heat > The Instant Openness or one of the Liquid Sunshine mixes would make people chatty, make 'em feel good > > The Shine will make them feel even better. Increase the energy, and make you seem like one of those people everyone likes to be around. An optimistic, bright breath of fresh air. > The small amount of Turn Up The Heat will let 'em know you’re not just a friend. > > Comfort: Instant Openness + a small amount of Instant Shine, an even tinier amount of Turn Up The Heat, maybe a little A314 or something based on MX102 through MX105. Optional Instant Honesty > > The Shine would keep it buzzy, non-boring. > > The small amount of Turn Up The Heat would help prevent friendism > > A314 would add comfort, and position you as a classical man ( DHV ). I think the key would be using not too much. Maybe even less than 1 drop or 1 spray of MX102 is ideal. Our own Thomas Lavoie does something like this. > > Instant Honesty would make her feel like she’s known you forever. A true comfort accelerator (but maybe too comfortable in high amounts?). (I’ve gotten a lot of feedback saying that A314 and Honesty are actually killer for mystery’s C3) > > Seduction:Turn Up The Heat + TAL + P79. Optional: A little Shine and/or Instant Openness > > The Turn Up The Heat would add the sexual spark > > The P79 would make 'em wanna do something about it, and reduce LMR > > The TAL would make women aggressive and direct (chime in here, Taoist Biker and others!) and also reduce LMR. > > What do you guys think?” I got the following rep for the quoted post: “This is good sound advise and works like a charm!” Thanks for that… Just wondering if someone could come forward and give them their honest personal experience with this approach/strategy? Would love to hear how it actually worked out for you in real life. It sounds really solid on paper but I am not sure how practical it would be to reapply mones in the middle of interactions for example (except perhaps when adding things like TUTH at the seduction stage)… Real life experiences trump everything IMHO (taking account of a person’s situation - for example, SteveO is a PUA, M&M is muscular and a good flirt, denec is a star (?), etc )… ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/23 "2009-04-01T12:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Wrlprchnx > So essentially - > > Androsterone strong mixes require a little more game for same night attraction, but tend to produce numbers that are less likely to flake? > > None strong mixes require less game for same night, but are much more likely to flake afterwards? This sounds right Wrl. Would like to hear more real life experiences though on this. As an aside, other things aside from AndrosteRone can help to create a ‘long term’ partner vibe - like perhaps IFM and P74 . I get the feeling something like [Instant Female Magic](https://a314.com/product/instant-female-magic/) + AndrostEnone + Socials (as long as the man doesn’t get too depressed from the Instant Female Magic) works better for actually getting action with a girl initially then AndrosteRone + AndrosteNone + Socials. Does anyone have any views on this? ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/24 "2009-04-10T03:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Socrates > Some interesting posts from the past on pheromones pushing things in a woman’s brain and the way this can backfire. I will analyse some of the issues raised in more detail later. Others are welcome to chime in … … A possible ‘rebound’ effect on women from Androstadienone/[Instant Female Magic](https://a314.com/product/instant-female-magic/) described in the past… MHarris’ and Phya’s posts offer alternative explanations of what was happening though… It appears I’ve been banned from LS. itwow (June 16, 2006): "IME, the Androstadienone rebound is a legitimate issue, although I receive such responses more from females than males. Rebound from females usually occurs a few hours after 1st positive contact. Some beta males display a mild but noticable disgusted/annoyed look on their face upon 1st contact. Remarkably, gays seems pleased with me while wearing Androstadienone (25mcg & I have a headache). It was a single hit, I need to try this a few times to really pin it. Rotate the use of Androstadienone, don’t use it daily…" Phero-Misses: The reverse neck exposure itwow (July 23, 2006): "The A314 +IS could be too intense (you’re too hot for her, end up pushing her away). I’d include high dosages of WAGG or Alpha Androstenol to increase the “approachable” factor & balance the “display high value”. Not sure of the effects of Instant Female Magic, but Androstadienone do have a limited working time frame & rebound. Best to introduce Androstadienone not at first contact, but rather in the midst of prolonged interaction. IME, neck exposure beckons my approach but the ladies get nervous (quivering lips, toppling glasses, dropping pens etc) when I do start to talk to them. Some femme pheromones ( TAH , TAL , Meo- EST , EST ) helps to break their ice, they enjoy talking at me than to me, if that makes sense." Androstedienone itwow (August 23, 2006): “…However, all 3 bottles [of Androstadienone] exhibit limited “window time” with females i.e. 2nd encounter with the same female is not as thrilling (on the same day). Best to score within the hour with Androstadienone!..” Rbt (June 16, 2006): "…Aside (and actually more in line with the subject of this thread) - elsewhere it was noted that there may be a negative “rebound” effect even on women much less on men if one uses Androstadienone on a daily or near-daily basis. A) do any of you here find this true? and B) would this effect also hold true for Instant Female Magic? I certainly want those around me (especially certain “less than happy” women) to get a _positive_ benefit from Instant Female Magic and/or Androstadienone. That for me is one of the main points of my using it." Instant Female Magic MHarris (June 16, 2006) "…Quote: Aside (and actually more in line with the subject of this thread) - elsewhere it was noted that there may be a negative “rebound” effect even on women much less on men if one uses A1 on a daily or near-daily basis. A) do any of you here find this true? and B) would this effect also hold true for Instant Female Magic? I certainly want those around me (especially certain “less than happy” women) to get a _positive_ benefit from Instant Female Magic and/or Androstadienone. That for me is one of the main points of my using it. My preference is to never use the exact same pheromone mix on a daily basis. Our bodies and minds get used to anything. Good things, especially. We take them for “granted” on a biological and psychological level. The childhood dream of “Pizza everyday” soon gets boring. Becomes a prison. So does filet mignon. So do our favorite songs, if we hear them too much. So do our favorite people, if we see them too much. Both our biological and psychological selves thrive on newness and change. I’d feed into that. That’s why I designed our initial products to be infinitely modular. You can be a little more open one day (with Instant Openness ), and a little more earnest and intimate ( Instant Honesty ) the next. More authority today ( A314 ), and a little more comfort tommorow (Instant Female Magic). This way you can keep the brain and it’s ever habituating Reticular Activating System “on it’s (proverbial) toes”." MX203 is a keeper mahalo\_silver (March 17, 2008): “can anyone descirbe 203 in 1 succint phrase? i’m struggling to define the nature of the attraction. When i got the hit from the blonde at a party, it seemed she Instantly chose me out of the other guys at the party to connect with as soon as she arrived…i mean, like after a minute. She was there with her BF, yet appeared to BOND with me, ie. body turned 2 me away from the other guys including her agitated BF, she holds 80 percent of the convo without me having 2 make an effort, i mind her hand bag while shes dancing y didnt she give it 2 her BF] - so, it has strong rapport qualities, there was definately sensuality and interest, but no “in your face” none type reaction, its much MORE ADORABLE and MEMORABLE 4 the women. its not " Ammo , 1 night stand guy”…its SOFTER. taters right. its not Instant Female Magic like. for me, Instant Female Magic/ Instant Honesty IS COMFORTING AND RAPPORT BUILDING, BUT CAN MORPH TOO EASILY INTO SOMETHING TOO INTENSE. something the women may not be prepared for or want. often times with Instant Female Magic, ive gone from attractive, wow! BF material, to something abit creepy. 203 dosen’t have this intensity or seriousness. its lighter and sometimes abit subtle, …the obivous reactions will always come from blondes. p93 with TAA and Androstenol is intriguing , yet its hard to define the attractive qualities into a succint phrase. i find it reliable in that i won’t ever get a bad reaction the way i can from Ammo OD . i find it has strong residual effects. sometimes its abit too subtle for me. Bizzarely, 2 Korean girls have found it memorable and i can secure follow up dates. Other Asians? not sure…strongest hit was off a French girl with dark eyes and olive complexion." MX203 is a keeper mahalo\_silver (March 19, 2008): "MX203 AND Instant Female Magic - COMPARE AND CONTRAST: i dunno, i initially described it as being “Instant Female Magic like”,but re-considered upon reflection of Taters analysis…i now see the differences… mainly in the sense that 203 is a social empathogen as well as a sensual one, it is socially lighter, Instant Female Magic is intimate and can be socially dark in group party interactions…mx203 lacks the deep and meaningful intensity of Instant Female Magic and i believe that for lone wolves like myself im naturally an intense and serious guy - Instant Female Magic with Instant Honesty can create an intense connection and attraction, but i manage to make it creepy and i get overly sensitive to the subsequent rejection]. So for me, Instant Female Magic can be problematic in this regard, especially with Instant Honesty and if its a new girl you’re meeting and she may not be after a deep and meaningful interaction, even if it does create a connection…203’s more party friendly, yet still creates a bond/connection effect…so i guess both products create different types of connections and in a different way. both r memorable. could prove a great element to a party mix. should go well with Instant Openness . they both impart a “feel good” vibe in the target and they will assocaite this feeling 2 u. unfortunatley, in my case anyway, the intensity of this connection vibe with Instant Female Magic can quite suddenly change into something a bit too dark and intense. 1 girl for example, appeared to build up a great attraction for me over several occasions while using Instant Female Magic, then the attraction got too emotionally intense and serious,…and we had a major falling out. she chose my sleazy friend instead. later, she had told me she cried the whole next day and her friends had 2 comfort her. she told me i was acting posessive and i reminded her of her ex BF who was too clingy. Instant Female Magic had in part created such a strong attraction that i had expectations and couldnt understand how this attraction could suddenly combust. another time wearing Instant Female Magic/Instant Openness/IS, a random girl at a house party had made me a CD for no apparent reason and asked my friend 2 give it 2 me. so Instant Female Magic can obviously generate intense feelings. I cannot work it into something that works long term though. the Instant Openness and IS lightened the intensity and it was a much more positive experience than the Instant Female Magic/ Instant Honesty one. I would say that for me Instant Female Magic may have a slight edge in terms of sexual attraction. its just a lot trickier to work it. IS MX203 THE POSITIVE MAN’S Instant Female Magic? THE CLOSEST SIMILARITIES APPEAR NOT WITH Instant Female Magic/ Instant Honesty , BUT WITH THE LIGHTER, HAPPIER AND PARTY FRIENDLY Instant Female Magic/IS/ Instant Openness ." MX203 is a keeper Phya (March 26, 2008): "Mahalo? How much IFM are you wearing? Have you tried buffering the IMF/ Instant Honesty with some IS? The reason I ask is because you mention that mx203 is ‘light’ whereas IFM is ‘dark’. I wonder if that perception is in-part created by the self-effects of IMF. There seems to be a significant portion of males who feel depressive effects when wearing IFM . Could this depressive effect make you feel like IFM is ‘darker’? Also, to take it further, if you are indeed experiencing depressive reactions, then I think it’s safe to say that it is subtle enough for it to be unconscious? Then, is there a possibility that the unconscious depression was reflected in your behavior? I could imagine that someone in a depressed state of mind might cling too tightly to someone/something that makes them feel better. (In a similar manner that her ex-bf might have acted if that was the case with him.) This comes to mind because, I remember one night I was wearing IMF and I was invited into a friend’s home. We rolled around in bed for a bit, but I didn’t have sex with her and was more satisfied just being in her company. This is behavior that I usually exhibit when I am depressed. My sex drive disappears and I just want to be ‘close’ to someone. I guess you could consider it similar to how a girl wants to cuddle. But it’s not really about the physically ‘cuddling’ but I need ‘close’ emotionally, otherwise I feel too alone and disconnected. Anyways, I’m not here for a therapist, I’m past that, I’m just saying that if you are someone who is sensitive to depression, it might have a stronger effect on you that you realize. I remember thinking what the hell is wrong with me? I’ve got a naked girl in front of me and all I wanna do is just lay there next to her? Wasn’t until after that I connected all the dots. Although, total brainfart. I was just thinking, has anyone buffered IMF with a -none heavy mix? Hmm..I just figured out what I need to experiment with now. Too bad I can’t do this at work…" ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/25 "2009-04-10T06:19:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Socrates > Some interesting posts from the past on pheromones pushing things in a woman’s brain and the way this can backfire. I will analyse some of the issues raised in more detail later. Others are welcome to chime in … surfs\_up (December 23, 2005): " sure , I get tons of DIHLs that go nowhere women have forebrains too. If they experience a limbic brain response that is too incongruent with their global thought processes they seem to have a defensive jamming mechanism, I’ve had women suddenly snap out “I feel weird”, “I have a headache, “I’m confused”… any strong response that fails human logic will produce strange results… the effect is far better when there is already a congruity in place, the girl is interested, - moneswill help her feel comfortable being interested…” TAA + Raw Power texaspete (May 3, 2008): "…Thanks for the reps and compliments… I think that, frankly, Raw Power turns women on, it can do it suddenly, and it can do it in unsuitable/unsustainable situations or without any encouragement OR warning - BUT just because she suddenly wants sex doesn’t mean she wants you. It happens quickly. I think that if you are not socially and physically positioned to take advantage of this effect then you will be in an awkward situation and she might just run for the exit or look for an outlet like contacting their SO and/or talking about sex. Here’s another way of putting it - lets say you’re on a subway car full of butt-ugly, disgusting, older than dirt, morbidly obese, revolting, smelly women and all of a sudden you pop a boner for no reason whatsoever-- are you going to think “Yes! I’m going to bone the nearest fattest, ugliest, oldest, most disgusting woman here because I HAVE A WOODY!” (?) …Um, no… you’re going to think “Where the hell did that come from and jeezus jeezus jeezus O MY GAWD I hope they don’t see it, I am SO out of here!” (_Pete grabs emergency brake and bolts from subway car_) Yeah, It’s kinda like THAT. TAA on the other hand seems to simply makes people more “affectionate” in general, and as you know, individuals express their affection in many different ways and the social situation can be a limiting factor. I have noticed many, many more “hair flips”, “lean-towards”, and other stereotypical " IOI " -type behavior from two attractive,taller-than-me blondes who I have been “in the friend-zone” with for a long time since I have started using A314 + TAA and alternating between cops and Raw Power. I have also noticed them both abruptly and obviously stopping themselves as soon as they realized how they were behaving. They’re hot, but one is engaged and I can’t imagine having a lasting relationship with either of them. What y’all can take away from this is that I had considered them both out of my league until I noticed the hair-flips, giggling, etc and now I am much more confident around both of them. On the other hand I’ve been falling to pieces around two other women lately - I mean getting tongue-tied, dizzy, totally goofy while flirting. This is unusual for me. Can the cops that I am wearing myself effect my own interaction with women? I swear that when I am close to them I am acting as if I am smitten, when I don’t think these ladies are THAT hot… am I being effected by my cops myself? And this highlights an observation I have made and raises an interesting question: To begin with, I think these women are attractive and fun, but not anything to write home about, and I don’t think that we are compatible so it does not occur to me to pursue a relationship or even just sex - but after I am around them, alone, in a closed room and in close proximity, I become a blubbering fool and wonder - at the same time I’m acting like a fool - “Why am I acting like this around HER?” The observation: If I am not reacting to the cops that I am wearing, then I suspect that my cloud of cops is encouraging these womens metabolisms to put out more cops as some kind of competitive response - but the question is… is that the same question going through the minds of my female friends when they act goofy and disengage from interacting with me? Are they going through a version of that subway scenario and thinking “Pete’s not that hot and (or) i wouldn’t work, so why am I acting like this?” I wanted to point out this possibility because that’s not a thought-process that I think pheromones can overcome." ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/26 "2009-04-15T11:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Socrates > Pheromones for Pickup: Attraction, Comfort, Seduction > Gem (December 19, 2006): > “I don’t know pheromones but I do know game - here is my input, take it or leave it. > > It is important to understand the differences within the different sections of the Mystery method model: > > Attraction is A 1 (the opener), A2 (female to male attraction), A3 (Male to female attraction) > > Comfort - Can all be lumped together but is essentially building deeper raport and connection. > > # Seduction, is split into thre but only two are relevent - Getting her horny, and LMR (last minute resistance) > > A 1 - Instant openess, instant female magic or instant shine - baiscally all you are trying to do at this point is get the girl(s) to speak to you you so anything that relaxes her, opens her up or makes her feel good near you will work > > A2 - female to male attraction, I am not going to go into what builds attraction, but I will just say, you don’t want anything that makes her feel comfortable or connected to you (the secret is to make her feel you are better than her or unobtainable) so I suggest Turn Up The Heat or Instant jerk, or maybe even \> A314 if congruent with your personality. > > A3 - male to female attraction, at this point you want to show her she has won you over (not sexually) baisically this is where you first show attraction by complimenting her you want her to link compliments from you with feeling good so my pheromone of choice would be instant shine or female magic. > > Comfort - deeper raport, deep conversations, connection, shared experiences - Instant openess, Instant shine, Instant honesty … > > Seduction > > S1 - getting her hot, time to Turn Up The Heat (again), instant jerk, (basically sex pheromones > > S3 - LMR - This is when she wonders if she is doing the right thing (after all she only just met you) You DO NOT want to be winning her over by palying how horny she is feeling off against her will power (that is IMO immoral and inneffective) You want to reassure her - so once again you want some reassuring, feel good products (shine, Honesty, openess) > > Now, that is a fantasy situation - in reality you cannot change and remove pheromones that quickly for example the whole attraction phase can be run within the space of 20 seconds (trust me i have done it)So I suggest you identify your own sticking points within that framework and select the right pheromones from there. For instance my sticking point is A3 - I have no problem opening, I can build attraction easily - too easily that leads to the problem that girls think I am being insincere or playing with them once i begin to take an interest in them - so I would stick to Shine or openess to assist me and not use any sexual pheromones. > > Me personally - I will stay away from any sexual pheromones beyond our first meeting. It jsut seems a bit too much like pressuring someone into doing something they wouldn’t normally do becuase they get too horny and that doesn’t sit well with me. I like to guide all sexual encounters towards a meaningfull lasting relationship (open relationship), so I am prepared to wait and ensure she is 100% happy and has made the decision to escalate sexually with all the facts in place (including the fact that I am a PUA and will not commit to her). But that is just my personal Moral Stance so take it as you will. I would rather sleep well at night even if it means I don’t sleep with a different person each night. once i have already slept with a girl I will certainly use sexual pheromones to spice up the sex. > > The above recommendation is for MM style game (indirect), > > If your style is direct I would recommend just Turn Up The Heat or Instant Jerk if you can handle it…” Like Gem in the quote above, xvs identified his sticking points and within that framework selected the right pheromones from there. xvs’ sticking points were that he intimidated women - they just weren’t comfortable around him. xvs was 44 to 49-50 and apparently getting great results with WAGG on its own over years (WAGG is very similar to TAK ). What are YOUR sticking points? xvs (July 28, 2002): "…I already have 2 gals to sleep with. I’m looking for someone I like enough to be ‘girlfriend material’. " xvs (August 2, 2002): "Well… I take a different approach. I’m older than you – 44. My last girlfriends have been 23, 25 and 24 respectively, with a couple of 30+ thrown in for good measure. I actually don’t care how old they are, it’s how they look. It just seems to turn out that I usually find that the young ones look better to me. Anyway, I dress the way I want to dress, which coincidentally is similar to a 20-something (late 20s) “hip” type. I am in good physical shape, and apparently look younger than I am… girls typically guess that I’m late 20s or early 30s. I’ve been using mainly - Androstenol and Androstadienone lately, though I had good success for years with the unknown ingredient in Athena 10x. In any case, I find that the trick is to have sex with the girl before she finds out my real age. If you can get her sexually addicted to you she’s yours no matter what. You have to really make her yours in bed though, for this to work. Lately I had the annoying experience of chatting with a cutie in a bar who was flirting with me and touching me, and then asked me my age. I told her, and (after refusing to believe me for about 5 minutes) went white as a sheet, got really upset and basically freaked out on me. She’d have nothing more to do with me after that and was completely scandalized that I’d tried to pick her up. Funny thing was… she was older than any of my recent girlfriends. Go figure." xvs (March 1, 2003) "…My own experience as a ‘lone wolf’ type is that WAGG makes women respond positively to me. It doesn’t make them jump into the sack, but does make them like me enough so that they give me a chance to talk and develop some intimacy. I haven’t tried it in combos, but plan to give it a try with some NPA soon." xvs (March 10, 2003): "I used to try to use Androstadienone, but the sweats and nerves and depression got to me too much. I’ve found that WAGG gives me the similar (or maybe even better) results to Androstadienone without the side effects. If you can deal with Androstadienone, combining them might be even better." xvs (May 11, 2003): "WAGG works well for me on Asians. The two most recent were vietnamese and chinese/malaysian." xvs (May 27, 2003): "More hit stories OK, last night I was wearing my usual (WAGG plus some essential oils) and I had a date with this gal… well, we ended up making out in her bed, and she started licking my neck right where I’d applied the -pheromones! It was great, but I also kept thinking that I hoped she didn’t lick them all off! Maybe she did, because after a while she seemed to get a little less comfortable with me… and I hadn’t brought along any more to re-apply! Ah well… Still counts as a nice hit! Next time I’m gonna put some on various parts of my body to hedge my bet. Post more hit stories here if you’ve got 'em!" xvs (February 1, 2005): "WAGG may do little or nothing for you, but I use it by itself as my standard pheromone (every day), and it works great for me. I can’t use much if any -none because then the gals get frightened. I think WAGG works by itself if you already have a good natural -none level. That’s a theory anyway…" xvs (February 4, 2005): "I don’t use anything else. Just pure WAGG. And my friends are pretty impressed with my seduction record. I think it depends on the individual. If you’re already aggressive, WAGG alone is what you need. If you are shy perhaps a product with a little -none in it would be useful." xvs (February 5, 2005): "I’m over 40 actually… applying about 4 dabs to each side of my neck. “Targets” ages range from about 25-34. (Do we have to call 'em “targets”?)" xvs (February 5, 2005): "I’m probably alpha. I know I ain’t no beta! Martial arts a few times a week… not bulky but in good shape." xvs (January 25, 2006): "WAGG is what I’d try if I were you. It makes women feel cozy and safe. That’s a good start!" xvs (April 2, 2007): "…WAGG doesn’t make you less alpha. It makes women feel comfortable around you. Women can feel comfortable around an alpha, and in fact feel MORE comfortable around and alpha than a beta, so long as they feel that the alpha is on their side. That’s what I feel WAGG does. It doesn’t make me seem like a wimp. It just makes me seem like a protective alpha rather than a threat alpha. As for it being “stinky”, take your bottle of WAGG and have women smell it. I’ve done that and they basically all really like or LOVE the smell. Remember, pheromones aren’t supposed to smell good to you or other guys. They’re not even supposed to smell good to women (but they do). They’re supposed to work. And WAGG works for me. Also, its strong smell means another thing… it’s got lots of pheros." xvs (April 23, 2007): “…My best results have been with WAGG, and I’m older than you (usually -none is recommended for older guys who naturally produce less of it).” xvs (June 28, 2007): "WAGG has secret stuff (like NPA). It really does seem different from other products. I use it basically every day. It works kind of like Androstadienone, but without the depressive effect (which for me is really strong with Androstadienone). When I wear WAGG, I basically NEVER get a “creep” reaction from women. They may not love me, but they at least act like I’m an okay guy. (Yes, I used to get the “get lost creep” reaction before…)" xvs (October 22, 2007): "…You’re like me – a little intimidating at first. The BEST product for that is WAGG. No question. With WAGG women will feel comfortable with you right off the bat. It totally changed the way women relate to me. I get NO really negative reactions any more (once they’re close enough to smell me)." xvs (January 23, 2008): "…WAGG is my all-time favorite too. I use it daily. Every day. Women love me now and were freaked out by me before. Changed my life. What else can I say?" xvs (January 23, 2008): "…What I mean is that women often reacted quite negatively to me when I’d talk to them. They’d become uncomfortable and turn off to me. I think it’s partly because of the way I look and partly because I tend to be a bit intense. Since I started using WAGG I’ve gotten almost no negative reactions from women. They actually do see me as a “good guy”. This gives me time to charm them (into bed for example…). I don’t usually use mixes, just straight WAGG. Sometimes I’ll add a little -none when I’m going to a club, but not usually. It turns out you can use quite a lot of WAGG with no negative reaction. So I often put on 2-3 drops. The only downside is when you run into one of those rare people who it smells bad to, but they’re really rare." itwow (August 24, 2006): "I apply WAGG (without cover) onto the sides of neck, using a glass dropper. WAGG smells of clean sweat, detectable only from close range (1 inch), lasts at least 5 hours, won’t survive water/sweat though. A few users I know who exhibits “lone wolf chracteristics” are of blood type O. Not to say all type O males are lone wolves, but we can’t make any generalisations until more data is collected. WAGG registers a trusting, dependable vibe to others, it will take a while for others to accept the change of your signature. Most of the time, it’s a matter of dosage. Too much WAGG makes people treat you like a little brother. I don’t use WAGG everyday, alternate it with ANOL -active products like Scent of Eros/u. One should use pheromones to firstly, round-off unattractive individual traits/perceptions. Then, increase appeal using other products." ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/27 "2009-04-26T10:02:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Socrates > Some interesting posts from the past on pheromones pushing things in a woman’s brain and the way this can backfire. I will analyse some of the issues raised in more detail later. Others are welcome to chime in … > … > A possible ‘rebound’ effect on women from Androstadienone/Instant Female Magic described in the past… MHarris’ and Phya’s posts offer alternative explanations of what was happening though… > > … maxo-texas may offer some kind of ‘solution’ to the rebound effects and ‘buyers remorse’ issues raised above. I will examine his posts in detail, at a later stage. Perhaps I will focus on how he got ‘his women’ into states they _LIKED_ being in as opposed to ‘false states’… Muscle4Hire (October 10, 2006): "Let me just say that the emotional responses a woman develops and remembers about you are WAY much more important that pheros. The mones can get the ball rolling in the right direction. So for instance, if you piss off a woman because you had sex with her best friend and then lied about it, you can wear 5 bottles of LT and WAGG… it won’t do a damn thing. What will happen is the pheros will tug at her saying “hey, he’s a good guy, trust him” but her emotions will overide them and say “those thoughts are bullshit, don’t make sense… here’s why you hate him”… the emotions will win hand over fist anytime… So, what I’m saying is learn how to create good emotions with women starting from first contact and building up the ladder… pheros will help kick things off but if you’re a dumbass or in a bad frame of mind, go reframe yourself/get in a better mood and go for it then. Later" maxo-texas (October 11, 2006): "live… I think I had some of the same issue about hair loss. It bugged me- and I let them know it bugged me which is of course like saying, “Be sure to look or think about the HUGE white expanse and how it bugs me!” As I managed it and my feelings about balding- it dropped in importance to the ladies too (except the 1% who just have to have long hair- which is unrealistic on their part when you are talking about 45 year olds). I accept my strong parts- easy going, non-judgemental, humorous, great teeth (more of a factor as years of poor dental habits catch up with the other guys), fit (huge numbers of guys bloat up bad in their 40’s), smart, successful, no substance problems, yada yada yada. I don’t know what having a collection of girlfriends puts me at- I’m not a 10, but it is a relative thing- I may be a 9 among 40 year olds. I have seen mones have a powerful effect on _some_ females. I have seen them make me much more funny, interesting, comfortable to be around to many females. I’ve never seen any “buyers remorse” on the part of the ladies tho- so they don’t regret the time later. If they did, I’d say the mones and my “game” was putting them into a false state. I do get a lot of comments that indicate they get into states they _LIKE_ being in and that many other men can’t bring them to. Those statements intensified after I added in pheromones and appropriate male behavior and became slightly more alpha than I “really” am." ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/28 "2009-05-30T17:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Socrates > Some interesting posts from the past on pheromones pushing things in a woman’s brain and the way this can backfire. I will analyse some of the issues raised in more detail later. Others are welcome to chime in … > > Instant Openness, Instant Honesty, Instant Shine, Instant Female Magic, A314!!! > MHarris (January 4, 2006): > "Quote: > Originally Posted by PheroQuirk > suppose you have an amazingly open, deep and almost intimate discussion with a girl you just met (or at least don’t know very well). what do you think goes through her mind afterwards? i mean i could imagine she could be left with a very positive impression of you and her interaction with you if she can find a way to rationalise it. > > but if her mental map is incongruous with how she feels i suppose she might feel strange about things. so I suppose it might sometimes be important as well as behaving in a way thats congruent with your pheromonal signature to indirectly hint at potential reasons for the openness and your good rapport that will stick in her head later on when she is going over things again. > > I don’t know. but as MHarris has pointed out I think it is key to find ways to strengthen congruence. > > Congruency helps a ton, unless you’re deranged and actually want to make someone accept an incongruency. (which works wonderfully to create slaves - cults and cult like organizations know that if they can someone to accept enough things which don’t make sense, they’ll have a mushy mind to push around) > > Congruency comes with practice. With being. > > I’m sure you were an astronaut as a child. For a week or a day. But it is what you pretend to be for years that you “are now”. > > All reality comes from make believe. We become what we practice preaching and being, it’s as simple as that." > > 80-90% Game, 10-20% Pheromones > PheroQuirk (November 22, 2006): > "Quote: > The difference here is that she’s virtually decided the outcome before you say word one. She’s so interested that it just clicks in her brain that you already are friend/lover/boyfriend/whatever. This one relies heavily on pheromone/whatever trigger and pheromone/situation/historically based assumptions on her part, not so much the other things. > > I agree with what you said about that particular type of girl. But more generally you may trigger a click-whirr circuit that leads to regret - you might trigger very strong feelings and then have her run away because she is scared of them and doesn’t understand why she feels that way. Limbic brain vs neocortex. > > I think one way this happens is if you have attraction without communicating enough value or establishing rapport. You have a great physical connection, but then a few days later she flakes when you call. > > So you need to provide an ‘excuse’ to justify those feelings… Gosh, reading this it sounds manipulative but that’s not how I mean it. > > Thoughts?" > > 80-90% Game, 10-20% Pheromones > 80-90% Game, 10-20% Pheromones > PheroQuirk (November 22, 2006): > "…Some unorganised and very basic thoughts on how pheromones change things are below. Love to hear thoughts on how we can develop this… > > d)elicitation of values, rapport etc. beta - Androstenol ! but need to steer (and/or give her an excuse for such intimate conversation so early on) otherwise she might feel weird about having revealed so much to you… > f)attraction… perhaps one should just be aware that maybe this phase can be accelerated by none/ Androstenol etc. need to provide a reason why she might feels this way otherwise regret later on ?.." > > Field Report - I’m sold… > PheroQuirk (December 18, 2006): > “…In particular the aggression from guys (and menstruating women) in response to high none quickly becomes tiresome. You have to work hard on rapport and demonstrating value to avoid phone flaking or buyer’s remorse…” More on the buyer’s remorse issues from PQ… PheroQuirk (July 30, 2006): “…Think this is right - this happens all the time without ’ mones , but mones do make it easier to accidentally end up in a place where she experiences buyer’s remorse when you call. For example you might see a girl in a club and your eyes meet and before you know it you are kissing her. Without the mones you might both have proceeded more slowly and in the process given her reasons why she felt that way about you. But now, lets say you get her number and call she doesn’t understand why she was attracted to you and regrets the experience…” * * * ---
**Author:** ![Socrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Socrates](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Socrates)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/29 "2009-06-22T13:05:59Z")
As far as the age old view of pheromones and pickup techniques/strategies as ‘unethical’, the following posts make some very good points to the contrary… Also I want to add that its not about creating a ‘false you’ but rather a better version of yourself. For myself, I had an interest in pheromones for a few years focusing on their effects outside of pickup mainly. However I decided to use my post organisation skills to try to put the pieces together on this area. I came as an ‘outsider’ with limited pickup skills and wanted to learn things starting from a position of relative weakness. I even learned the jargon/terminology and started interacting more with guys involved in pickup in this community. I wanted to help guys learn to be better at this (including pheromone use). Giving people a ‘ladder of opportunity’ to go up in the world (with women) with the knowledge they gain rather than being stuck in a frustrating neverending cycle which ultimately leads to bad things. That’s why I don’t regret it one bit and believe it is a good thing for society - rather than hording dominance for yourself (and consequently first pickings on the ladies) and keeping your friends down, why not improve yourself and improve others as well… The Truth About Cocks and Dolls: Letter to the Editor "Women in New York are beautiful, sharp, and clever, and can be difficult to approach. Yes, they often weed out guys that try to hit on them in a sloppy way. However, the techniques well-versed pick-up artists use are not sloppy. They are based in proven psychological and sociological behavior and provide effective results time and time again. Is it sneaky for men to employ said techniques? No sneakier than it is for a woman to color her hair or wear a push-up bra or high heels. We do what we need to in order to get the attention of the opposite sex. I have a problem with the way this article portrayed pick-up artists as conniving losers. I’ve seen these guys in action and, let me tell you, this stuff works–even on me, even after reading up on the various methods. The article made them out to be ill-mannered clods who are quick to insult a woman, which is also inaccurate. Negging is about creating a playful atmosphere, not about lowering a woman’s self-esteem. It’s the grown-up version of hair-pulling on the playground. Ultimately, I think these men deserve more credit than they are getting. Having met and interacted with quite a few PUAs at this point, I can tell you that none have been disrespectful or unkind to me, in fact, quite the opposite. I have had many fun nights out with these men and made some new friends. What you need to realize is that my situation is unique. Most women do not study pick-up strategies devised for men. Most women also aren’t as accepting and enthusiastic about the seduction community as I am. The reason why I try not to be judgmental or disparaging about what these men are doing is because they are making an effort to be more successful with women. They are learning to be less shy and more charming and flirtatious. They try to create a fun, positive, and exciting experience for the woman. The credo many follow is “leave her better than you found her.” What’s so bad about that, that they wanted to get laid, too? Guess what, guys have always wanted sex and will continue to want sex. You can’t fault them for finally discovering methods that are successful. And, contrary to what your article proposes, the techniques work and will evolve and continue to work. The thing is, we need them to work. If they don’t work, men and women will remain in opposite corners of the room and the human race will not survive. Sure, I wish there didn’t need to be so much strategizing, but with women becoming increasingly cynical and defensive, something needs to be done to break through that wall we put up. If we didn’t create so many rules to begin with, men wouldn’t need to play any game. Let’s face it, we are all players and we all make or break or follow the rules. Don’t hate the players and don’t hate the game. It’s who we are. ~Dolly" Neil Strauss “The Game” - a fascinating read! MHarris (December 9 2006): "The modern techniques of “game” work, especially on younger women that respond almost exclusively to social posturing. With modern game, you can consciously hit the hot buttons that “jerks” have accidentally. The current “state of the art” in “game” is the start of something better than what you see today. You guys do see how complex and formulaic today’s “game” is, right? It’s mostly empowering what used to be called “nerds”… you know, the guys with big brains and whale sized attention spans. Truly wonderful, high value men whom, in a perfect world, would be getting all the girls… but simply weren’t. In fact, you can literally think of this as the movie “Revenge of the Nerds” come true. Now the good guys have tools to gain access to what was simply given to meaningless meatheads – the jerks and abusive nutbags that girls LOGICALLY knew they shouldn’t be attracted to, but EMOTIONALLY were, despite logic. For the most part, “Game” today is a good thing. It allows what are mostly intelligent men to be just as brilliant with women as they are with computers, finance and other serious topics. Any tool could be considered manipulative. I think it has a lot to do with who’s using it and why. While these guys talk a “big game” (male bravado), most eventually want a girlfriend or wife. Noble goals. Both Eric Markovich (Mystery) and Neil Strauss have gotten “one-itis” for what they perceive to be the “end all, be all” woman (what Eric once called “the one”). So what’s the worst that’s going to come from computer programmers and other good guys learning some socials skills (and yes, a few “tricks”)? Women of tommorow will end up with more warm, loving providers? Prove to me that this is a bad thing. To me, it makes for a brighter tommorow… with less children that have scumbags for dads. (if you don’t know who donates most of the sperm to make most the kid’s in the world, dig into anthropology and evolutionary psychology a little. Start with David Buss’ book “Evolution of Desire”) What may seem like a sort of superficial system on the outside, actually makes for some substantial world improvement in action, folks. It’s not as bad as it seems, when used by decent men…" Silly Little Boys And Their “game” mercury (December 28, 2006): "terry, please understand that some of the men in our community have had no clue whatsoever when it came to women. Some havnt even interacted with women at all. So all this is exactly the same as you putting make up in the morning or brushing your hair. Guys are no different. They also need help in finding their soul mate. Its not as easy as putting on make-up either. Just try to understand that finding someone they can love not only benefits them, it also benefits the woman as well. Not everyone who “games” uses it for the bad. And on the other hand, not all women who put on make-up and wear very attractive clothes are angels. So before you critisize everyone in the community, please be aware of the others who aren’t “sick and insecure fickle little immature men.” and be mindful of the guys who have repeadetly gotten their hearts mushed, trampled and set on fire bymanipulative women. Its not an easy state to go through. Believe me." Silly Little Boys And Their “game” sigma (December 28, 2006): "…Whether or not people want to admit it, or even realize it…we all implement some level of ‘game’ when it comes to seducing, or courting another…simply because realistically, it isn’t favorable for a man or a woman to be completely and absolutely direct in attracting another. We might not necessarily employ the sophisticated methods and tricks talked about in the PU community, but one way or another, we all develop methods of seducing another that are true to ourselves. Experience will best teach us all the little nuances in courting and seducing (this is where I agree with Terry). We learn from our successful experiences, but moreso, I think, from our negative ones. Do women run game too? To a certain extent yes. At the risk of being labelled a slut, of getting used and hurt, of making the wrong impression on you, or simply because they don’t want to make things that easy for you, they would have to. (ladies chime in on this if you will ) Also as an interesting side-note, there have been field studies of animal cultures that shed light on some of the indirect ‘courting’ behaviors that animals employ to seduce one another…a sort of ‘animal game’ if you will. I’d have to dig up my old anthropology text books to go into more detail…but I can recall a case of male chimps presenting a dead fish to win the favor of a female chimp he’s attempting to seduce. All things considered why should we attach so much negativity to ‘running game’? I think the title of ‘game’ itself, carries a lot of negativity, but the acts and methods themselves are a natural part of human behavior. It isn’t a matter of being decieving, or being insecure. Are there those who employ sophisticated PU methods for the sake of heartlessly devieving women…or because they’re so pent up in their own insecurities? Sure.But the act of ‘running game’ or otherwise making use of ‘courting behaviors’ isn’t all heartlessly deceptive…nor is it a product of anyone’s insecurity" tacitus (December 28, 2006): “Thank you. It has come to my attention that some anthropologists believe that higher primates have something that they have termed the “machiavellian module” which is a part of the brain hardwired for deceit… more amazingly, this deceit, or machiavellian module is cleverly arranged so as to take the deceit to a higher level, to “meta-deceit”.. that is, to be highly skilled at hiding the fact that one is lying, or highly inconsistent between one’s professed values and one’s actual behaviors…David Livingston Smith wrote a book about this hard wired deceptivity, including, most enlighteningly, hard wired self-deceptivity in his book Why We Lie… so possibly we have to look at this as a neuroscience problem rather than as a good versus evil problem.. the trick then, for the truly successful player, is learning how to modulate this deceptive inner nature in imaginative, constructive, creative ways instead of being entrapped in dull, stupid, obvious, life draining expressions of it.” catlord17 (December 28, 2006): "First, I agree with some of what Terry had to say, but I also agree with Sigma on this. I’m finding it fascinating how this is playing out. It looks like this. Men spend millions of years trying to spread their genes. Women spend that time trying to weed out the genes they want from the ones they don’t. Men take the lead, and harems develop. Then power struggles and insecurity takes the lead, and the ball goes to monogamy and women. Then, men discover what it is that pushes the right buttons in women to help spread their genes. Men being men, this knowledge spreads, becomes distorted, improved upon, grows… changes… and women discover that men are doing this “gaming” thing. Women feel threatened because they don’t understand what’s going on, and men feel empowered because they don’t understand what’s going on either. The information spreads. grows, gets more refined and at the same time more diluted and confused. In the hands of a decent man, it is useful, and in the hands of an immature man, it is harmful. Just like anything else. Some women see some men being pigs and respond with alarm. They begin attacking the perceived threat. Then some men begin defending what is happening, while others see this as an opportunity to get in good with women, and start condemning it. All the while, confusion reigns, and not a damned thing is different than what was happening a million years back. The fact is, people, Tacitus is right. We’re slightly evolved monkeys with more iltellect than we have the wisdom to harness properly. The “game” has always been there in one way or another. It, like all things, is changing, but the buttons are the same. I didn’t understand at first why women were coming down on me so hard for using PUA terminology when I posted, but I see now that the terminology is associated with men who want to go out and get laid as soon as possible and then find another conquest. Not my idea of a real man either. But, the game is the same for the man who’s just out for some tail, or the guy who’s looking to attract his choice of women. The game is called attraction, and what women seem to be responding to with terror is the fact that attraction is not a choice. These buttons that are being pushed are illogical and emotional and resist common sense, so women rightly feel vulnerable because let’s face it, nobody wants to be taken advantage of and used and thrown aside. But at the same time, as I said, these buttons are there from time immemorial, and it used to be that they got pushed more or less randomly. Now we know how to push them more specifically. And, just as with anything else, some people will abuse this information, and some people will not. Some people will get hurt, and some will be made happy. In the end, it all comes down to one simple fact. Nothing has changed but the day of the week. She still wants the same thing she always did, and so does he. And before you start jumping to conclusions about what that means, take the time to think. Why is a man “better” for trying to kiss a woman’s ass in order to get into her pants (evolutionarily speaking) than the man who pushes the buttons that get her wanting to have sex with him on purpose? The funny thing is that I’ve been accused of being a pick up artist, which I don’t think of as a bad thing, but my “style of game” breaks a lot of the PUA rules. For instance, the three second rule? HAhahaha! Try three hours, or three days, or even three weeks in some cases. My goal isn’t to get women in bed. My goal is to play the game that women like to play, with them, and have fun doing it. Women see socializing as a form of entertainment, a game if you will. And when I finally realized what that was, I was enlightened. If you stop worrying about “getting the girl” and forget about sex, then you are freed up to have FUN. You socialize and play with one another. It’s sort of like a game of social/verbal volley ball, really. For me it’s not about getting anywhere, or getting anyone, or getting anything. I go in without expectations, without trying to fulfill any needs, and seek to enjoy my fellow human. Females, of course, afford the opportunity for interactions that men do not, since I’m heterosexual male… but I’m certainly not worried about whether she ends up in bed with me. That I attract women the way I do comes largely from the fact that really, I don’t care if she’s attracted. Or interested in sex. Or has a boyfriend, or husband, or fiance. Ir finds me attractive, or likes me, or whatever. I’m there to enjoy her company. It seems to me that when a woman comes across a man who has this attitude, she finds that man naturally more attractive. He’s not insecure. He’s not needy. He’s not trying to fertilize her eggs. He is comfortable and enjoyable to be around. In other words, he shares a good time with her, and leaves her be otherwise. If she likes this, she’ll signal her interest. And if he’s got more than half a brain, he’ll notice, and either decide to accept her invitation to play a more intimate “game” or not. Nothing has changed. There have always been men who were “naturals” and there have always been men who were not. Only now, the men who are not, can learn to be more effective in becoming what a woman wants, instead of just resorting to a club and a dark alley. It’s not a black and white issue, as some of you seem to want to make it out to be. I can assure you, properly handled, a woman of exceptional intelligence, self esteem, self worth and strength of character will be appreciative of a man who knows how to play the game. I know this, because I happen to be such a man, and I happen to have such a woman. It’s not about being fakey. It’s about men learning how to play the games that women insist we play in order to succeed. Ladies, like it or not, you’re always looking for the man who exhibits certain specific qualities, and those qualities are not always obvious. So you do things to see what we’re made of. Push, pull poke, prod… you test us. And that testing is this game I’m referring to. You build an obstacle course to keep out the wannabes and losers. Makes perfect sense. But don’t get upset when a guy figures out how to get through that obstacle course, because it’s your own obstacle course. Remember what it’s for, and be glad when a guy decides to improve himself enough to get through it! But what about these guys who only want the prize at the finish line? Well, sooner or later, they’ll learn that sex by itself is not all it’s cracked up to be, and they’ll change. Just like women grow and mature and learn to better handle things, so do men. We just take a bit longer in some cases. Game has more than one meaning. Life’s not black and white. And like I said… nothing’s really changed." David (July 16, 2004): "It’s no different I agree with the gist of what others are saying. These in IMHO no moral issue here. Whats the difference from any of a long list of other things people do to attract others: any cologne/perfume, fixing our hair, wearing nice (or sexy) clothes, wearing a Rolex, driving a beemer, what ever. Paradoxically, we do all the above (and other) things (which to some extent are facades) to attract someone initially, but who we really are is what (hopefully) keeps them. I personally am most seriously interested in a deep abiding connection with someone. The mones are just part of the hunt. I doubt they will be relevent after making “first contact”. But I’m not sure. Namaste David" DrSmellThis (July 16, 2004): "Metrosexual Ethics and Pheromones Wearing pheromones is doing people a favor, by creating a more pleasant pheromone profile for them. You’re pleasing the senses. It is essentially no different, or no more deceptive, than wearing nice clothes instead of going naked everywhere. Is wearing a shirt over your little beer belly deceptive? If somebody dresses well or smells good (pheros help people to enjoy smells more thoroughly), their habit is often a lasting, and therefore not superficial, difference in their attractiveness. I will always smell good (and dress with aesthetics somewhat in mind), and any woman in my life can count on that enjoyment. But what if pheromones were magic – so powerful, they caused every woman to find you attractive? So what? Is it unethical for Brad Pitt to be Brad Pitt? People are as free, responsible and attracted as they are going to be, in response to all the things we do to ourselves to help our attractiveness. It is what it is. Who can judge how attracted someone should be? But even assuming we could and “should” be these kinds of judges, maybe people “should be” more attracted to each other than they are. Maybe pheromones help redress the excessive alienation, mistrust and isolation that plague capitalist, individualist cultures; and help remove some purely biological obstacles to intimacy; obstacles that are less relevant, in practical terms, than they used to be." jvkohl (October 2, 2006): "…Bronzie, I don’t think that the ethics of pheromone use is so philosophical, though–yes–it has been discussed several times. Last time it came up I think I commented on women with breast enlargement, use of make-up, stylish clothes etc for comparative purposes. Muscle4Hire, do you think we would ever see any woman express such concerns about either “natural” or “unnatural” enhancement of their attractive features? ## For example: Dear Abby, whenever I see a man I would like to start a long term relationship with, the first thing I do is take off all my make-up, take out my breast padding, and change into sweat pants and a sweat shirt. I want to be natural because I fear what will happen if he ever finds me in his bed with my messy hair, no clothes, and no make-up. Signed: Not an early riser Smelling good means looking good! JVK" Gegogi (October 2, 2006): "…Hell no. That only happens with insects and other small critters. Otherwise you could spray ’ mones on a corpse at a funeral and watch the ladies drop on the stiff like flies. My experience is 'pheromones only enhance or amp up what you already have. They do not add or take away anything. If you’re a charming guy, you’re even more engaging with ’ mones . If you’re a ass, ‘mones help project you as an even larger hinny. If a lady has feelings or attraction for you, the ’ mones entice and urge her on. She’ll often be more forward than normal. However she ultimately does what she really wants to do. If there is no attraction, a litter of NPA poured down your drawers won’t help one iota (save making yo’ balls twitch)." belgareth (October 3, 2006): "I’m with Gegogi as well. mones are only a small part of the whole attraction picture and aren’t all that important. Reading these threads, I’m often convinced that the mones had nothing to do with the results people get other than acting as an ego booster. They help at times but at other times it seems very unlikely the mones had anything to do with it other than how a new suit would help you attract some women. They do help but if you look like the hunchback or don’t brush your teeth and shower pheromones aren’t going to do much. Ethics are strange. What you might consider unethical I might find completely acceptable or vice versa. I’m not going to tell you to live by my ethics but expect you to live by your own. If you feel pheromones are in some way unethical you shouldn’t use them. If there is an issue with your ego, that’s something else altogether. Somebody else asked about mones being harmful and the same thing applies. If you are concerned that mones do too much instead of the real you affecting the girls, don’t wear mones ." live4themusic (October 4, 2006): “…At the same time, I don’t think it’s very likely that chemicals naturally produced BY humans could be harmful to humans. Now I know there are some ‘pheromones’ being produced now that are minor chemical alterations of pheromones that have long been established, and I could understand if it is proven that somehow these new mutant pheromones are harmful to humans, but I don’t think even that is very likely.” tenaciousBLADE (December 3, 2006): "You are the ICEBERG I was gonna say the reframing Maxo-Texas did, on his first reply here, was good and to the point, which it is. But yours’, Muscle, is EVEN BETTER. Well done! Now about what JVK said early in this thread, I agree to a great extent; except for one little thing. I don’t think the ` mones are the ONLY thing doing the programming here. Indeed, they do a lot of it; but at the most-part, what they program is the context. I can’t think of a better way to put it than the way golem put it: The pheromones are just the icing on the cake, But YOU my friend, are THE CAKE. In this, I’m actually agreeing strongly with something else JVK said… The package HAS to be complete. In this case, you’d be the package, and the pheromones would simply be the amazing wrapping that says to her “Take me, take me! I have something valuable inside! ”. So yes, of course that she’d normally get the point quicker, with the aid of the rapid `pheromone-messengers sending her brain the point through the body, but the point (that you’re worth it) would be there with or without the ` mones . Now, just to get things clear… The other things doing the programming are various. For example: your behavior, the additional context (i.e. the environment you’re in at that moment, the previous activities she did & her feelings towards them etc.), the coordination between what you say & what you do, the `rapport` between the two of you etc. etc. But that wasn’t my point here. There are many aspects to her liking you & you can’t be expected to be aware of each and every one of them, besides, that awareness will increase by itself following the experience you gain with time. The point remains that YOU are the package, and the ` mones are not what she’s attracted to, but rather what initially attracts her to you. Another important thing to remember is, that just as you said you like makeup on some women, the `pheromones only compliment you. And she most probably enjoys them in the same manner she might’ve enjoy sex toys. You know what I mean? It’s a bonus for them AND for us. Nothing un-ethical about it IMO The reaction by people who find out about your `pheromone-usage, can indeed remind us somewhat of that to an un-ethical behavior (I say this, unfortunately, from experience). But that has only to do with the automated pre-programmed effect of that persons’ personal view on whatever external “manipulation” they associate the to-them-unknown-and-unclarified concept of `pheromones. Remember, that manipulation should have no negative associations here… it simply means specific-communication. Yet to them, it sometimes does have a negative association. Why? `coz they generalize; we all do, it’s efficient, it just gets outta control sometimes. They might have been hurt by one type of manipulation & generalized a “run-from” behavior towards all types of manipulation or even seemingly-manipulations. Taking off the `mones by the way, doesn't end the relationship. After she found out, I did take them off, and she was still convinced I had them on all the time. She kept declaring "You put that special cologne again!" Even though I was`a la natural`. It was actually a while after I decided to put them back on, when our relationship started going down the stairs, so to speak…" smooth312 (December 7, 2006): "…I justify use of 'pheromones to myself with an analogy like this… …It’s like guys who use Viagra to help with erectile dysfunction. I’m not a fat, bald, slob who’s getting women that wouldn’t otherwise want to be with me. Sure, you get an incredible hit here or there, but for the most part, I’m just maintaining my 'pheromone level as it was long ago. I’ve always been attractive, and 'pheromones just help me maintain that edge that I had moreso when I was younger…and so now since it’s fading in my early twenties, I’m just putting it back at the level it should be. It’s just like any other supplement that is meant to keep you young, beautiful, etc… I think it would be unethical only if you could automatically make women sleep with you with some product. It doesn’t happen, you still need social skills, you need game, you need confidence…girls don’t just fall into your lap because of your scent…you have to be the whole package." phernoob (March 28, 2008): “Caviat for the newer people. I think that these reactions are just an exacerbation of personality traits that we already have. It just makes my natural personality more pronounced (god help everyone) like i could be louder and more obnoxious! This stuff should not be used by someone to change another’s personality. Won’t happen. It’s like a Push-Up Bra for your personality… Just have to get the right combos.” Am I underestimating the smell of pheros? bosshank (June 11, 2008): "Jon - I know what you mean - that is one reason I have never said anything to anyone. My wife knows I use them but her curiosity pretty much ends there. As for anyone else around here - I don’t know - it is like either there is no interest in anything outside their little world or they are too busy trying to be the big fish in the little pond. Which is hilarious as I have swum with some pretty big sharks so I know a minnow when I see one. I would love to recommend these products to a few people but the potential back-blast is so great. Then again how many women tell you they are wearing their push-up bra today …" Are women who use Pheromones ugly? Gegogi (November 4, 2008): "…Sure, there are a few and we try to help these one-shot-wonders time and again in the forums. However, those with physcological problems are probably the exception and not the norm. Besides, if you’re searching to fill a void, pheromones are a quick trip to nowhere. Try religion, booze or drugs. At least you’ll be so numb you won’t realize you never left the gate. I suspect more pheromone users think they’re the shit and merely wanna keep it that way. For others, pheromones are merely a little extra ammo and insurance–on the same level as lipstick or perfume.Personally I think pheromone users tend to perfectionists whom enjoy controlling their environment without being too obvious. And more social cooperation means more time invested into getting things done." ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873/30 "2010-01-23T19:14:07Z")
> [@Socrates](#): > > Now, that is a fantasy situation - in reality you cannot change and remove pheromones that quickly for example the whole attraction phase can be run within the space of 20 seconds (trust me i have done it) So I suggest you identify your own sticking points within that framework and select the right pheromones from there. For instance my sticking point is A3 - I have no problem opening, I can build attraction easily - too easily that leads to the problem that girls think I am being insincere or playing with them once i begin to take an interest in them - so I would stick to Shine or openess to assist me and not use any sexual pheromones. I would imagine that a person could use a baseline product that’s always on and then as the game progresses subtly add new products to enhance the next stage of the game, or to neutralize the unwanted effects of the last stage by using the more compact travel size sprays. Without personal experience and going strictly by the product descriptions I would suggest using Baseline=A314 as it sounds like general high status/value alpha male product. Attraction phase-Perhaps Icebreaker or Come Talk to Me. Even though you’d be initiating the conversation These products sound like they would add an element of approachability to A314’s dominance. Keep a travel sized spritzer in a coat pocket perhaps and spray one wrist while she’s not looking. Comfort Phase-Opposite pocket same strategy/technique with either [Instant Openness](https://a314.com/product/instant-openness/) or Instant Honesty. I don’t imagine the dreaded “just friends” zone is too much of a risk since you still have the A314’s high value male effect as an undertone. Seduction Phase- Pretty simple, you have the high value male effect along with a good comfort and approachability effect from the spritzes of your A and C game products. Now you can add either Tuth or Ammo, I would suggest doing so while in the process of making your “bounce” from the comfort location to the seduction location. Perhaps on the way to or in your car or at your place or hers while she’s not looking. The comfort effects of IO and Approachability effects of Icebreaker or Talk to me would balance out any “coming on too strong” effects of the more sexual phero products. The trick is to figure the right combo for progressively adding and building upon the last stage without worrying about having to wash away the last product. Again this is all my own theory from logical deduction based on product descriptions as I have only now received my order and haven’t had time to experiment yet. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pheromones-for-pickup-strategies/5873.md?page=1)