# Please convince me! **URL:** \ **Category:** Introductions - New Users, Say "Hello"!\ **Created:** [December 21, 2006, 12:04pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235 "2006-12-21T12:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![deletedphthalo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@deletedphthalo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/deletedphthalo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 12:04pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/1 "2006-12-21T12:04:13Z")
Hey, I’m a 24 yr old male from Oxford, sunny England, and I wanted to ask for a little piece of advice: I’m pretty sceptical of this whole pheromones business, so I’m wondering if you guys can suggest a product which will really convince me that they do something. There are a few things bothering me: 1. The perfumes used with these pheromones are sometimes really nice - I just love the smell of Instant Shine, and I suspect it is the conscious percept of this smell that people respond to, not the pheromone. 2. Knowing what the pheromone is supposed to do will change the user’s behaviour - when I started using A314, I found I was just a lot more confident for the first day or two because I knew I was meant to be. 3. If you have a convenient, simple explanation for people’s friendly behaviour (such as your wearing pheromones), you’ll tie it to that explanation and remember it. On the days when you’re not wearing any, people might be just as friendly, but you won’t find a simple explanation anymore and so you won’t notice, or you’ll forget their behaviour. So can you guys suggest a product that will really demonstrate that they have some effect? It doesn’t really have to be a good effect, but it’s just got to show me that they really effect people disproportionately to the noticeable scent and changes in my behaviour. Perhaps spaceland or white-cap A314 in high doses? Quick rundown of who I am: single 😠 , shy :o (and my body language/facial expressions show it!) but can just about push myself to talk to new women 🙂, looking for long-term relationship. Tried IS (up to around 8 sprays - pretty overpowering smell at this level), A314 (up to maybe 5 drops), [Instant Openness](https://a314.com/product/instant-openness/), Ammunition and Turn up the Heat (both only once or twice), something called Realm Men, and an older -none based one called Passion Attractant for Men. Tried them in various combinations and alone in clubs, bars, at work, at dancing lessons - all these events are too varied from day to day to really tell if any of them are doing anything! ---
**Author:** ![BlazingAzn88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/49beb7/32.png) [@BlazingAzn88](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/BlazingAzn88)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/2 "2006-12-21T12:46:36Z")
Well it all depends on your social awareness. If you arent very good at identifying body languge or arent really good at processing peoples intent, its really hard to notice “effects.” I suggest you get out a little more and study how people act, then apply your pheremones and see if there is something… different. You might notice some interesting results. ---
**Author:** ![Carrie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/carrie/32/1537_2.png) [@Carrie](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carrie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/3 "2006-12-21T13:21:58Z")
BlazingAzn makes a good point. There’s also the fact that it sounds like you might have a bit of OD going on. I can’t think of a reason that a 24-yo would want to wear 5 drops of A314, especially outside of business interactions. Even then … that’s a really high dose. You might want to take a look at some of the recent threads in the men’s forum about mixing, and how it’s not for newbies … you need to take this slow, one product at a time, and learn about what they’re doing for you in your environment. About point #1 - I agree, wearing any nice fragrance makes people better disposed to like you and talk to you. So work it! Point #2 - that’s true as well. But if placebo works, why not use it? And if there’s more to it than placebo effect, all the better. Point #3 - If you take a day or 2 off from applying pheros, you still have carryover from previous applications. I get great results the day after applying. If you want to really return to your baseline state, go about 2 weeks without them. Good luck and keep working at it! ---
**Author:** ![matanon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@matanon](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/matanon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 2:17pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/4 "2006-12-21T14:17:54Z")
hey there guys, i think thats a good point that blazing made about being able to process peoples intent and identifying body language, also knowing what one’s own is saying. the whole reading of people affair is hard to do for me anyhow, unless they make it very obvious and that often repels me a bit anyhow. if anyone would care to elaborate on skills gathered around how to go about reading this sort of interaction/response i would be most grateful. for me its been such an intuitive learning process and i would like to know how to bring the process more to the fore of my consciousness so that i can clock whats actually happening quicker and respond accordingly and learn lessons with more efficacy. great this site is i reckon, big up to all yall and bless ya cotton socks, mat ---
**Author:** ![deletedphthalo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@deletedphthalo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/deletedphthalo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/5 "2006-12-23T13:36:47Z")
Guys thanks very much for the advice. I’ll definitely concentrate on lower non-mixed doses and try to get a better feel for normal (non-pheromone) behaviour too. Mat (and anyone else interested in reading people): I’m certainly no expert, but if you’re interested in better understanding people’s non-verbal communication, I definitely recommend a book called Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman. This guy is _the world authority_ on facial expressions, how to read them, how to reproduce them, and what sorts of things they unconsciously (or non-voluntarily) give away. The book goes into considerable detail on all the major categories of emotion, breaking the expressions down into different parts of the face and showing photos and giving descriptions. It also discusses a lot about the relationship between expressions and emotions - did you know that people are unable to voluntarily hide very small facial expressions when an emotion begins? Apparantly a study was done which involved watching married couple’s facial expressions (among other things) for 15 minutes as they talked, and managed to predict with 95% accuracy whether the couple would still be married in 15 years time. Powerful stuff this, if you get good at it 🙂 The book is quite famous now and you can usually pick it up in large local bookstores, or else on Amazon. Oh, and while we’re on books, I also recommend a book called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. This is an extended essay on what kinds of unconscious “first-impressions” processing people tend to do e.g. when meeting new people. It maybe doesn’t provide much “training material”, but is a fascinating read and really opened my eyes to how people really think, and really behave. It’s pretty short too, and a real un-put-down-able page turner. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/6 "2006-12-23T14:44:49Z")
> [@phthalo](#): > > Guys thanks very much for the advice. I’ll definitely concentrate on lower non-mixed doses and try to get a better feel for normal (non-pheromone) behaviour too. > > Mat (and anyone else interested in reading people): I’m certainly no expert, but if you’re interested in better understanding people’s non-verbal communication, I definitely recommend a book called Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman. This guy is _the world authority_ on facial expressions, how to read them, how to reproduce them, and what sorts of things they unconsciously (or non-voluntarily) give away. The book goes into considerable detail on all the major categories of emotion, breaking the expressions down into different parts of the face and showing photos and giving descriptions. It also discusses a lot about the relationship between expressions and emotions - did you know that people are unable to voluntarily hide very small facial expressions when an emotion begins? Apparantly a study was done which involved watching married couple’s facial expressions (among other things) for 15 minutes as they talked, and managed to predict with 95% accuracy whether the couple would still be married in 15 years time. Powerful stuff this, if you get good at it 🙂 The book is quite famous now and you can usually pick it up in large local bookstores, or else on Amazon. I haven’t seen the rest of this thread yet (I usually read new message first), but I perked up immediately when you recommended Ekman. That’s actually a great book. I’m glad you brought it up, but you’d be surprised at how bad some of the male body language “authorities” are in person. I’ve been having women test them over time at persuasion seminars (not Ekman yet, but we will if we have the chance). They might be able to write about body language, but most don’t know what hit them in real time. Just like most guys, they have to analyze the situation after it happens. _In the moment_, most have the same sort of male oblivious all guys do. On the other hand, quite a few women seem to take on a sort of a social deity status when they study of body language. There’s obviously something about their brains that “gets it” more, that allows them to install the study of body and facial movement as an actual real time process. They’re not just analytical models to them, they become usable intuitions. In fact, I recall reading somewhere how it’s much easier to trick a male security agent than a female. Women are supposedly much more socially circumspect. More in tune with what’s actually occuring, rather than what they _think_ is occuring. Even with all of my expensive training and education, I feel like I’m somehow broken when I compare notes with one of my female employees. I honestly do. The difference is extreme. I’ll probably have a chance to bring this up to Richard Bandler (the creator of NLP) in just a couple months, and see what he thinks. He’s supposedly been able to make this process more real-time (and more real, period) for himself via self hypnosis. It’d be wonderful to get his thoughts on the matter. Maybe there’s a process he could share. > [@](#): > > Oh, and while we’re on books, I also recommend a book called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. This is an extended essay on what kinds of unconscious “first-impressions” processing people tend to do e.g. when meeting new people. It maybe doesn’t provide much “training material”, but is a fascinating read and really opened my eyes to how people really think, and really behave. It’s pretty short too, and a real un-put-down-able page turner. Hey, another good one. I’m glad another person with a good reading list has made their way to the forum. Thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum. I’m sure you’ll have a great experience here! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scaro](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/scaro/32/2439_2.png) [@Scaro](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Scaro)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2006, 12:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/7 "2006-12-24T12:31:26Z")
Paul Ekman Ever see a name and KNOW it rings a bell but not have a clue why? I had a class in college that discussed how according to some brain scan study they were able to show most women’s brains are able to actually identify the emotion of a face BEFORE the brain actually recognized the image was a face. Something about overall pattern recognition of a face whereas most men focus on smaller parts (eyes, mouth, so on) and then put it all together to recognize the emotion. So a fast google search got me to this: [Paul Ekman. Ph.D : Training CDs](http://www.paulekman.com/training_cds.php) I actually did this in class, it was really pretty cool. There’s a sort of an example web version [Three steps - - CIO Magazine Dec 1,2004](http://www.cio.com/archive/120104/faces.html) I think it would be pretty valuable to most men. Because it shows an expression in such a very short period of time, you can’t do the usual part by part approach (there’s just no time) and forces you to learn and recognize the overal face patterns. ---
**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/8 "2006-12-24T19:41:02Z")
> [@Scaro](#): > > Ever see a name and KNOW it rings a bell but not have a clue why? I had a class in college that discussed how according to some brain scan study they were able to show most women’s brains are able to actually identify the emotion of a face BEFORE the brain actually recognized the image was a face. Something about overall pattern recognition of a face whereas most men focus on smaller parts (eyes, mouth, so on) and then put it all together to recognize the emotion. > > So a fast google search got me to this: [Paul Ekman. Ph.D : Training CDs](http://www.paulekman.com/training_cds.php) I actually did this in class, it was really pretty cool. There’s a sort of an example web version [Three steps - - CIO Magazine Dec 1,2004](http://www.cio.com/archive/120104/faces.html) > > I think it would be pretty valuable to most men. Because it shows an expression in such a very short period of time, you can’t do the usual part by part approach (there’s just no time) and forces you to learn and recognize the overal face patterns. Hey, I was going to post that second link soon. Beat me to it! 🙂 I have a few of his books, but didn’t know he had CDs.. Very interesting… I’m going to pick those up. Thank you! Also, as long as we’re on the topic of old college texts.. that begs a mention of Manwatching by Desmond Morris. An out of print classic of human anthropology lit., that’s practical in it’s use. (he has some other good books,too, but not necessarily as applicable as this one to the use of human pheromones) ---
**Author:** ![deletedphthalo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@deletedphthalo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/deletedphthalo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/please-convince-me/1235/9 "2006-12-27T12:41:43Z")
I actually did have a look at that facial expression training CD - can’t say I was impressed. As on the website you mentioned, each test is composed of two photos - the person’s neutral expression, and an intense emotional expression. The test flicks from neutral to emotional for a fraction of a second. Unfortunately, you identify the expression by catching sight of those sudden changes; I don’t believe this is at all like identifying facial expressions in real life where they happen smoothly - in fact, I think it’s the movements themselves which are most important. I also think the depth dimension of the face can be important for recognising expressions, and the CDs also give you no opportunity to practise identification in a moving head which isn’t always looking straight at you. Having said that, the interactivity provided by the CD did help me digest the book better. Without it, the book descended into a mass of detail which I just didn’t take in, but the CD helped to solidify the elements of the facial expressions. The CD also has a separate training section on “subtle” facial expressions. These are again just pairs of photos, but only employ expressions in parts of the face (although they’re actually not that subtle). The actual “training” sections of the CD are not large or long enough to be significant, only the tests.