# PUA + pheros **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [November 5, 2007, 8:52am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417 "2007-11-05T08:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Special\_K](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/special_k/32/771_2.png) [@Special\_K](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Special_K)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/21 "2007-11-06T18:33:12Z")
Yep the Venusian arts handbook is pretty good Data I agree. As for DeAngelo - He’s amazing! After reading The Game, personally I couldn’t take anything Tyler Durden/RSD says seriously. There’s a lot more to life than pick up, I think pick up is only a small part of it… The way you carry yourself, your ‘frame’ as they would say, and your personality are 100x more important than any ‘opener’ ‘sniper neg’ or ‘phase shift’. If you’ve got your frame and personality locked down, and you use the right body language then you can really say what you like in most cases. Pick up’s still handy as hell to know though 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PheroQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@PheroQuirk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/PheroQuirk)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/22 "2007-11-06T22:41:46Z")
> [@Special\_K](#): > > Yep the Venusian arts handbook is pretty good Data I agree. As for DeAngelo - He’s amazing! > > After reading The Game, personally I couldn’t take anything Tyler Durden/RSD says seriously. There’s a lot more to life than pick up, I think pick up is only a small part of it… The way you carry yourself, your ‘frame’ as they would say, and your personality are 100x more important than any ‘opener’ ‘sniper neg’ or ‘phase shift’. If you’ve got your frame and personality locked down, and you use the right body language then you can really say what you like in most cases. Pick up’s still handy as hell to know though 😉 Read some of their new stuff. It’s not bad. That book was an entertaining, reality-based novel but it was written to be a readable story and is the perspective of one man. Neither you nor I were actually there 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ochrismongrelo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/ochrismongrelo/32/318_2.png) [@ochrismongrelo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ochrismongrelo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/23 "2010-11-08T01:13:06Z")
> [@MadisonTate](#): > > What amazes me most is that some men/women feel cheated when you dont play a game on them. They enjoy it, even though they will rail against the -players- at the same time. Sweet dreams are made of this… > > Tater studies this stuff, and even got involved in pheros because he sees value in knowing the tools other people are using in society. Just because you dont like the idea of something doesnt make it stop working, so you may as well learn all you can about it. I think most people deny that pheromones work because theyre afraid of them and dont want to accept that theres something there…same with all the PUA/NLP stuff. There is definitely something there. Even if i dont like what many people are doing with their knowledge, sticking my head in the sand and saying i dont want to believe someone can verbally manipulate me so easily, or that a woman can spray on something that will make me find her somewhat more attractive, doesnt change the facts. > > Once you know that pheros work, if you dont follow through and make them work for your benefit, well, ignorance is bliss… I know that this is an ancient thread, but the whole idea behind a lot of PUA stuff is essentially that it’s taking the human mate attracting ritual all the way back to the days of the caveman. After all, when you get down to it, we’re still animals, right? (_waits for the Holy Rollers to throw creationism at me.._) And when you scientifically figure out how we work at our most primal, dissect it, rip it apart, modernize it, and update it - putting that ‘alpha male’ caveman into a 21st century context, that’s when we figure out exactly how to turn the game back to it’s correct demeanor, the way nature intended. Example? Look at the animal kingdom. In nature, you see the animals running around, and it’s pretty much always the MALE that is the colorful bird, or the animal with the brightest ‘display’ and posture. Generally the women want HIM, and HE does the deciding. It’s only due to our complex social structure and in recent times (compared to the time that humans have been here,) that women have suddenly became the be-all-end-all decisionmakers with all of the power over the males, and in VERY recent years, it almost seems like being ‘masculene’ has been turned by the media into being a horrible thing! (For further example, see: Emo, metrosexual, etc 😉 ) Essentially, the whole idea behind PUA is modernization of ancient alpha traits, using them to ‘remasculenize’ men (which isnt a bad thing, IMO,) and helping guys take back the keys. In the female PUA structure, it seems to be geared towards the alpha FEMALE traits, which is natural too, and not the ‘masculene princess’ personality that the media has directed women towards in latter years. But then, that’s just MY opinion 😉 C. Mongrel ---
**Author:** ![Noble](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/noble/32/1768_2.png) [@Noble](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Noble)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/24 "2010-11-08T01:30:39Z")
I’m new to both Mones and Pickup, but I’ve spent about 3 weeks learning about PUAs and NLP, all that stuff. Mones, I just found out about this weekend. (i like rapid development, I guess 😉) But I think the best thing you can do is get confidence, good posture, dress nice, and have a look at Richard Ruina’s material. He seems, to me, the best teacher. I prefer Natural Game, as it’s more romantic and way less sleazy as other “methods”. It’s a nice thing! Of course, pheromones coupled together with PUA training sounds LETHAL. So, of course you wanna do it! Is it fair? No, but if you think about it, neither is makeup. 😉 Besides, “all’s fair in love and war”, right? ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/25 "2010-11-08T02:55:23Z")
Natural game to me is a myth. As social animals all human behavior is instinct driven and moderated by learned cultural norms. Game as taught by Mystery and Style simply explains the how’s and why’s of what goes on during a successful interaction. Any interaction with a goal will depend on knowing how to reach that goal.“Just be yourself” is inadequate advice for a guy applying for a six figure job, “just be confident” won’t help an untrained guy who’s never thrown a punch if he’s standing across a ring looking at Chuck Liddel. So guys dismiss indirect game and claim advocacy of “natural” game mainly because A.) The claim draws less ire from women that refuse to believe that winning their hearts is a skill set that can be learned. B.) It allows for a bit of an ego stroke, one can feel superior by claiming to be a natural. Sure you can get some success but not reliably consistent success. ---
**Author:** ![forynav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@forynav](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/forynav)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/26 "2010-11-08T03:38:44Z")
Radman, I’m more inclined towards natural simply because I can’t be bothered to memorize all those routines. I hate memorizing and hate exams too because of that. As a model, the M3 is an excellent GPS to show you whereabouts you are in the game, but it is always best to enhance your own personality for it to feel easy and comfortable. I started out with routines and I’m grateful for it because it got me cold approaching. However, I never felt good doing it. By natural, I don’t mean iffy-diffy just show up kinda stuff. Natural game to me is more along the lines of Vin DiCarlo, Juggler, AMP, Zan ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/27 "2010-11-08T07:00:36Z")
> [@forynav](#): > > Radman, I’m more inclined towards natural simply because I can’t be bothered to memorize all those routines. I hate memorizing and hate exams too because of that. > > As a model, the M3 is an excellent GPS to show you whereabouts you are in the game, but it is always best to enhance your own personality for it to feel easy and comfortable. > > I started out with routines and I’m grateful for it because it got me cold approaching. However, I never felt good doing it. > > By natural, I don’t mean iffy-diffy just show up kinda stuff. Natural game to me is more along the lines of Vin DiCarlo, Juggler, AMP, Zan See my opinion is that a few overeager students literally steal lines and canned routines from their Guru of choice and it gets played out and is justifiably considered insincere and fake. Mystery himself states the material given in his books is for examples and not to be actually used by students…who he encourages to write their own material. The fact is the model is accurate you HAVE to open, unless you’re the sexiest man alive or a celebrity who’s face is all over TV and magazines the woman won’t do it so having A1 as the first stage is a given. You don’t HAVE to build female to male attraction before expressing your attraction toward the girl but believe me it’s a LOT more effective if she finds you attractive first. Attraction HAS to come before comfort otherwise she won’t give you the chance to get there, or you’ll be a eunich that gets friend zoned. And while many guys like the RSD guys tend to go straight from attraction to seduction I’m willing to bet they run into a lot of LMR and buyers remorse after the fact. Which may be fine for some guys, personally I don’t want the girl thinking “Oh god what have I done” the next morning and to be quite honest some of the techniques they endorse are aggressive to the point of coercion and border on date rape. But if you don’t care if the girl calls you again after sex then by all means…personally I prefer they become addicted to me so I get them to chase me instead. As for the canned routines, some people just don’t know how to be interesting. So I encourage the guys I coach to look into their lives and events in their past that are true and happen to fall into the attraction switch category. Then we just talk about it, I pull and get them to be excited about that aspect of their life and to learn how to talk about it in vivid and descriptive detail that holds a persons attention. As long as the stories and routines are genuine and truthful I see nothing wrong with preplanning what you would talk about, or how to do so in a manner that captivates the listener. Knowing how to tell a good story and hold an audiences attention (even an audience of one) is a skill to be learned. Spontaneity does not equal sincerity. Micro calibration is simply a skill of observation. Once learned well it doesn’t even have to be conscious though I liken it to what Dr Paul (Who’s Mind OS system would be about as “inner game” as you can get) would consider “Observing Ego”, essentially it’s actually BEING in the moment and paying attention to the other person and understanding…not only a skill but quite frankly an admirable quality imo. Ever see somebody telling a story to a person or group and the boredom is obvious to everyone but the speaker? That’s where microcalibration comes in. It actually encourages you NOT to be a self centered bore. Vin’s Attraction Code is inner game, but to be honest the rest of his material From Dating Diablo, S-Cubed, The Escalation Ladder etc are all either technique or theory about technique. For Inner Game as most people would define it I prefer David D and Carlos Xuma, although not intended as a pickup manual David Deida’s “Way of the Superior Man” is excellent and I believe every man should read it. A stand up comedian will spend hours a day rehearsing his jokes and routines but once he has the skill of delivery he can throw the script away and improv the whole show or come back to the script at his leisure. But holding peoples attention, getting the desired response at the appropriate time, dealing with hecklers much as a PUA has to deal with AMOGS…all skills that are developed and honed. Does it mean he’s not genuinely funny? No, we all know people that can repeat a joke they saw on tv and have us in stitches and some tell the same joke and it falls flat, they don’t have the skills of timing and delivery that the other person has. As for confidence, as you said…having the knowledge that you possess the skills and techniques to walk into a club, find a 9 or 10 surrounded by amogs and work your way into the set, verbally castrate the guys and have them thanking you for doing it before walking out with the girl eagerly in tow…and having numerous incidents fitting that description as evidence will give you solid grounded confidence that’s warranted. ---
**Author:** ![AplAy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/aplay/32/1054_2.png) [@AplAy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/AplAy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/28 "2010-11-08T20:20:25Z")
> [@chrispy-hello](#): > > i’m a newbie at pheros but it seems to me that using pheros + ‘the game’ must be a deadly combination that no girls can resist. any venusian artists in the building that have added pheros to their game? has anyone read ‘the game’ by neil strauss or practiced the mystery method? Very interesting thread, I do not view myself as “a member of the seduction community” anymore because somehow it just feels and seems weird now but before it seemed right and was almost like a cult-feeling “it’s we against all those chodes/AFCs out there! MUHAHAH TEHY JUST DONT GET IT AS WE DO!”. I see this phenomenon on every forum in threads where they describe other human beings (men and women) as either “naturals” or “chodes/AFCs”. They put the value of human beings depending on how good they are at picking up women, so if they suck at that then the’rey also viewed sucking as people. However, putting all that negative stuff aside, there are tremendeous good stuff you can get from the so called “seduction community”, I got into this whole mess 5 years ago and the first years messed me up alot then I got back on my feets so the first thing you need before you get into all this stuff is Perspective; u need to understand that there is more than “PUA”. First off, there is no specific science behind it, all marketers of the PUA industry are abusing the word “science” and I would like to kick them in the nuts because of that (Cartman style!!). I use scientific references, they only use the word “science”, expect David DeAngelo (aka Eben Pagan) who uses some books in some of his seminars which themselves has references. There are scientific resources though that can be applied, for example, Influence by Robert B. Cialdini, Nonverbal Communication by Peter A. Andersen or Albert Mehrabian (who was also the first scientist to declare that “90 % of communication is body language and the rest are words”). These highly scientific books offer great insight how you can use body language to appear more confident, dominant and all these good stuffs that most so called “PUAs” know are good when it comes to women. Secondly, I have also learned a very weird thing about women that sounds very counterintuitive but you have to find this out in the real world yourself to believe me: MOST WOMEN SUCK AT GIVING GUYS ADVICE! It sounds so damn weird that those we are “picking up” cannot really tell us how it should be done. I guess “the fish don’t want to tell you how it wants to be caught although it wants to be caught, weird fish indeed”. What I have experienced countless of times and I believe I will also always be doing, is that women might tell me one thing but they will also do a totally different thing that rarely is consistent with their words. So, they might tell a logical thing but do a totally another emotional thing. So, when Mystery says “change her emotions, not her mind” he was right on the spot! I also agree with folks who are saying that “The Game is NOT a manual” since I also perceived it to be more a history of the seduction community. My suggestions are, based on five years of learning this “outside of the box”-way: - Practice physical contact with people in general, after all, sex is nothing more than intimate physical touch and “physical escalation” just means that you are getting one inch or more closer to the more “private parts”. - NEVER take words from any so called “seduction”-related material as solid truth or like words from the bible, because they do not know everything or “the secrets of getting every woman in the world” and neither do I. Take everything with a huge grain of salts but also try out alot of different things. - Attraction IS NOT A CHOICE/LOGICAL PROCESS, so in a way, many times you will get attraction without actually having to do something “super-ninja pua”-related stuff. And when you get “attraction for free”, then it is up to you to be the man and escalate things since women will rarely do this. - HELP WOMEN WITH THE SO CALLED “SLUT DILEMMA” as I would call it. It is the process that women feel that sex is wrong, bad, full of shame of doing so they cannot appear or act sexually interested even if they might be and this means that we as men gotta “take responsibility to make sure that sex happens and blame some external event” as if “it just happened”. For example, when you are about to go home then tell a woman, “Hey, let’s see if you are good at Guitar Hero after all at my place, but then I gotta go to sleep, just so you know, okay?!”. This makes the woman feel that IF sex is gonna happen it cannot be her fault which makes her more willing to go to your place and HER ACTION TO FOLLOW THROUGH is usually a clear indicator of that SHE WANTS SEX because if she just met you and now she is going home to you and being alone with you, why would she do it? Bcuz SHE WANTS SEX but cannot be explicit with it so she has to show it through actions and you have to read it through actions and this is finally what I call “the hidden indicator of interest” and here is my definition of it: LOOK AT WHAT SHE DOES AND WHAT SHE ALLOWS YOU TO DO TO HER!!! Ok, alot of text here, just my inputs about the whole PUA+mones thing, take everything u read with a grain of salt, “as one perspective of many”, the more perspectives you collect, the more wisdom you will also get! 😉 _ **SMELL YA’LL LATER, GUYS!!!** _ \\ AplAy /// ---
**Author:** ![forynav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@forynav](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/forynav)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:53am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/29 "2010-11-09T06:53:44Z")
Yep, Radman agree with all of that. After a while, the indirect method attains flow and it also becomes “natural”. Frankly, natural game as the community uses it is just a marketing tactic. And yep, David Deida is a MUST for any aspiring Man (not aspiring PUA 😃) ---
**Author:** ![Carmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Carmo](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Carmo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/30 "2010-11-15T21:40:30Z")
Ive been studying PUA material for anout a year and a half now. For me, MM and other routine based models just seemed a little too out there for me and the pretty nomral people i hang out with. I did however use PUA to work on developing myself into the best and most attractive guy i can be. This basically comes down to understanding female psych, good body language/voice tone, having a flirty playful vibe and having an attractive interesting lifestyle. I tried memorizing all the lines but it came across as incongruent so i just kind of do whatever comes natural. Basically it comes down to your mindset. If you are out having tons of fun, attractiving a girl pretty much becomes an afterthought. If you are stuck in your head and not having fun you can have the worlds greatest line/routine and it still wont work. That being said, no wonder my favorite product is IS as it helps me get into that fun/playful vibe when i go out. ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417/31 "2010-11-15T21:51:45Z")
> [@Carmo](#): > > Ive been studying PUA material for anout a year and a half now. For me, MM and other routine based models just seemed a little too out there for me and the pretty nomral people i hang out with. I did however use PUA to work on developing myself into the best and most attractive guy i can be. This basically comes down to understanding female psych, good body language/voice tone, having a flirty playful vibe and having an attractive interesting lifestyle. > > I tried memorizing all the lines but it came across as incongruent so i just kind of do whatever comes natural. Basically it comes down to your mindset. If you are out having tons of fun, attractiving a girl pretty much becomes an afterthought. If you are stuck in your head and not having fun you can have the worlds greatest line/routine and it still wont work. That being said, no wonder my favorite product is IS as it helps me get into that fun/playful vibe when i go out. That’s why I don’t encourage guys to memorize other peoples lines…that truly is fake and frankly not good for your confidence if you’re reciting somebody elses material. What I do instead is list off the qualities that are considered attraction switches by Mystery, Style, Savoy and others from that school of game and ask the guys to think about an aspect of their life now or in the past that fits one or more of the attraction switches. IE: Think of an aspect of your life where you regularly exercise leadership over a group of men, if there is no current area of your life that qualifies…think of a time in your past when you were a leader of men, AND think of something you can START doing where you would be able to flex your leadership muscles now. Then whether it’s a current situation or past, I ask them to talk about it, flesh it out, remember details, and interesting side bars, etc. The story is then true and original, and the exercise also helps build confidence as the guys realize they possess attractive qualities they didn’t even know they had. I have them do this for as many of the attraction switches as they can. Since it’s taken from their own lives it’s not hard at all to remember. [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/pua-pheros/6417.md?page=1)