# Putative human pheromones and preferences of some MTF transsexuals **URL:** \ **Category:** Studies & Abstracts\ **Created:** [December 4, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134 "2007-12-04T18:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/1 "2007-12-04T18:36:22Z")
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids. H. Berglund, P. Lindstrom, C. Dhejne-Helmy, and I. Savic Cereb Cortex. published 3 December 2007, 10.1093/cercor/bhm216 [http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi…bhm216v1?ct=ct](http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/bhm216v1?ct=ct) “…the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.” James V. Kohl ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 2:28am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/2 "2007-12-05T02:28:56Z")
Reading the abstract, I was mystified: the authors use the term “nonhomosexual MFTRs” – non-homosexual male to female transsexuals. If there had been some indication that all of the MFTRs had completed sex-reassignment surgery, I would have concluded that the twelve (formerly male) females were all attracted to males, the term “non-homosexual” being defined in relation to the actual sex of the participants post surgery. But there is no clarity in the abstract on the actual degree of accomplishment of transsexuality of the subjects. So, if one is still biologically male though convinced that sex reassignment is appropriate, “non-homosexual” means .. to me .. that the individual is ~currently~ attracted to females, and would be expected to continue that pattern as a homosexual female after surgery. My point is that there is no established convention that I know of that grounds the (relative) term “non-homosexual” without some reference to “before and after” sex reassignment. And … upon further reflection, I’d hazard the hypothesis that ALL sexuality for a transsexual person … at any stage of accomplishment of their sex reassignment … involves some ideation and reference to homosexuality. People do not forget once having genitalia of the other sex just because they have surgery. For now, I’d say the term “non-homosexual” in reference to transsexual persons is, at best, confusing. ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 7:49am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/3 "2007-12-05T07:49:01Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > …there is no clarity in the abstract on the actual degree of accomplishment of transsexuality of the subjects. … > > …For now, I’d say the term “non-homosexual” in reference to transsexual persons is, at best, confusing. I’m rather certain the issues will be clarified in the paper, which I hope to have a copy of soon. Still, even among the sex research crowd, terminology is confusing. I once co-authored with an expert who suggests the use of androphillic (likes men) and gynephillic (likes women), with regard to sexual preferences–especially when there is confusion about sex changes. A male to female transsexual who likes men would be an androphillic female. Before the transition, the male might have been androphillic or gynephillic, which may be an important consideration. I try to refer to sexual preferences without classifying anyone, but that’s rather difficult when discussing the transition of transsexuals. James V. Kohl ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/4 "2007-12-05T11:32:40Z")
> [@jvkohl](#): > > … > I once co-authored with an expert who suggests the use of androphillic (likes men) and gynephillic (likes women), with regard to sexual preferences–especially when there is confusion about sex changes. > … I’d guess those terms will dominate over time. I’ve met more or corresponded with several MTF and FTM transsexuals, but never met one that’s experienced a change in the sex they are attracted to as they progress in sex reassignment. “Androphillic” and “gynephillic” have that oh-so-useful attribute: resolved referential clarity. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/5 "2007-12-05T15:48:58Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > I’d guess those terms will dominate over time. > [@MarkL](#): > > “Androphillic” and “gynephillic” have that oh-so-useful attribute: resolved referential clarity. 🙂 Agreed, androphillic, gynephillic and the phrase “resolved referential clarity” must come from those who are highly educated. I hope to hear more from you. James V. Kohl ---
**Author:** ![damekathy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@damekathy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/damekathy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/6 "2008-11-29T19:49:20Z")
It seems that, on average, my MTF friends that are older seem to have been and remain gynophillic before and after transition. However, the previous gynophillic MTF friends who are younger seem to experiment with going out with men and generally prefer that. I suppose much of that is due to the length of time of being influenced by their social norms they are influenced by. ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/7 "2008-11-29T21:43:50Z")
> [@damekathy](#): > > It seems that, on average, my MTF friends that are older seem to have been and remain gynophillic before and after transition. However, the previous gynophillic MTF friends who are younger seem to experiment with going out with men and generally prefer that. I suppose much of that is due to the length of time of being influenced by their social norms they are influenced by. It is more likely to be whatever reward mechanisms are associated with the different experiences. These involve neurotransmitters that can ‘rewire’ the brain (over time, of course). Rewarding or aversive responses classically condition personal preferences, whether they are associated with food odors or the natural body odors of others. James V. Kohl ---
**Author:** ![damekathy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@damekathy](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/damekathy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/8 "2008-11-30T00:45:48Z")
I don’t know if it is quite that simplistic. Certainly it all plays a part. From our earliest recolletions of ourselves, we believe we are female but we come up against the physical evidence that says otherwise (no reward mechanisms involved) and are thrown into a an inner struggle from that point on. As we meet our peers and we tend to fit in with the “wrong bunch”, we are systematically forced (persuaded, etc) to accept that we are them and not who we thought we were. It is hard to buck everything that is telling you that you are x and not y. You tend (not all agreed) to then force yourself into a mode and bury the other self. It is very socially incorrect (esp in the 1950’s) to think you are the gender that is not reflective of your physical self. You tend to try to prove you are what you’ve been told you are, even as the truth gets buried that much farther down. Again, norms were different back then and as time has gone on, it hs become less problematic for those who were born later, though still not free from being outcast, rediculed, or discriminated against. You tend to do what you’ve been programmed to do. Go out with the girls, get married, have a family. That creates an even greater struggle. You get the “rewards”, so to speak, of the one gender, though they are not always accepted the same way. And they end up not being sufficient to overcome that struggling person inside. Having lived as a man and being associated with them for most of my life, I’ve had to listen to the stories of deciet, infidelity, and worse from men on their treatment of women which turns me that much more away from them. I’ve always loved women. From the start as my sisters, and later from my associations with them and even my lovemaking to them. Again, this is at the same time I’m hearing the bravado and bullsh\*t conquest stories, et al. So, by this time in my life, I have a great quandry. When I finally let myself out of that deep dark place in the back of my soul and into the light, yes I have dreamed of meeting that man who really loves me, but upon waking I can’t think of that with all the crap I’ve known all my life. Those younger would not have been as exposed as I and those ofr my age bracket. I can say at most that I am “curious” and will probably experiement going out with a guy or two after my final surgery, but it more of a experiement (IF I can find one worthy) than an overt quest. Whereas, going out with another woman seems so natural and right. Hmmmm, let me state that again, going out with a woman seems right to me, but …as I’ve been transitioning for 2 years now, instead of a good or bad thought of going out with a man, it is now “non-disgusting”. (In the beginning, it was a disgusting thought) Meaning, I don’t look forward to it, but I’m not adverse to it. Maybe I have go find someone who does not have the traits of the jerks I’ve known in my life. !!! Now, don’t forget it is hard to nail this down (like nailing jello to the wall) in a few paragraphs that I’ve had to live with all my life and the complete turning my life over on itself the past couple of years. Add the hormonal changes and such…quite a LOT to deal with. And, unless you are one, you cannot fathom what it is like. Though, coming into my own is like being born again. I just wish I could have done it sooner. > [@jvkohl](#): > > It is more likely to be whatever reward mechanisms are associated with the different experiences. These involve neurotransmitters that can ‘rewire’ the brain (over time, of course). Rewarding or aversive responses classically condition personal preferences, whether they are associated with food odors or the natural body odors of others. > > James V. Kohl ---
**Author:** ![Gone\_with\_the\_Wind](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/gone_with_the_wind/32/2227_2.png) [@Gone\_with\_the\_Wind](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gone_with_the_Wind)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/9 "2008-11-30T01:11:45Z")
Whatever terminology is decided on, I would hope that one would be able to figure out if the individual in question had a xx or a xy chromosomal makeup. I think that is also important when considering brain structure and behavior. ---
**Author:** ![jvkohl](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/jvkohl/32/1297_2.png) [@jvkohl](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/jvkohl)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:14am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/putative-human-pheromones-and-preferences-of-some-mtf-transsexuals/7134/10 "2008-11-30T02:14:10Z")
> [@damekathy](#): > > I don’t know if it is quite that simplistic. Certainly it all plays a part. I didn’t mean it to sound so simplistic. I published a 57-page journal article and book chapter last year in this regard. Within the 57 pages is a very complex picture of how our bodies and brains develop along a continuum of sexual differentiation that include remarkable variability with regard to sexual preferences. Yet the olfactory/pheromonal basis for these preferences becomes quite clear in the light of model species. The November issue of ‘Science’ has several articles that draw attention to the role of genes, hormones, and behavior–and gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) plays the most central role. It is also directly influenced by mammalian [pheromones](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/). > [@damekathy](#): > > !!! Now, don’t forget it is hard to nail this down (like nailing jello to the wall) in a few paragraphs that I’ve had to live with all my life and the complete turning my life over on itself the past couple of years. Add the hormonal changes and such…quite a LOT to deal with. And, unless you are one, you cannot fathom what it is like. Though, coming into my own is like being born again. I just wish I could have done it sooner. I don’t think that any of us can fathom what life has been like for anyone else. We all deal with trials and tribulations, and in many different ways. Certainly, those who are ‘different’ may have some things in common with others who have similar differences. I’ve known about equal numbers of jerks and bitches. I wish I could have learned by anything other than experience how to tell the difference between them and the ‘others’ uninformed people sometimes refer to as normal. Statistical analysis of laboratory controls allow for 2 standard deviations (2 SD)from the mean/norm–and all is well to proceed. I don’t think anyone has determined how 2 SD math applies to human differences. James V. Kohl