# Rough design vs. refined, Thomas Edison & R&D vs. Time Square Rolodex salesmen

**URL:** <https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653>\
**Category:** Messages From Michael\
**Created:** [August 18, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653 "2009-08-18T06:10:40Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/1 "2009-08-18T06:10:40Z")

</div>

Hi everyone.

I found myself thread hijacking a bit (going beyond the scope of a thread), so I moved my discussion here.

Here was the original discussion.

> [@Turn up the heat / Alpha 7 ...same?](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/turn-up-the-heat-alpha-7-same/31639):
>
> Anybody know if these products are basically the same. Unfortunately I’ve already purchased the Alpha and I’m wondering if I can combine it with other products (IS, A314, [Ammo](https://a314.com/product/ammo/), IO) as a replacement for TUH. Thanks

The following is my original response. Useful stuff to know and understand, perhaps, but not really within the scope of what I was originally answering. Oops. 🙂

> [@Mtnjim](#):
>
> Alpha 7 contains the “big 3” (nol,none, rone), I forget the exact ratios though. I had good results with it, though it’s a bit “rougher” than AD products. No buffering.

Some like it rough.

Hey now! I didn’t originally mean what that obviously sounds like, but I guess that’s true, too. 😉

You’ll always tend to find, however, my mix philosophy and refinements getting the way of this roughness – even when I don’t mean to, ala MX292 (the design intent of which was to be “bomb” like – i.e., a big effect, yes, but with lots of schrapnel and rough edges!)

That’s why I like different quality voices in the market. The key being _quality_ voices; I could do without fraud being used in marketing, and other types of BS, I’ll tell you that! This should be Nvidia vs. ATI type stuff, and nothing more.

Our forum’s biggest debates should be closer to what you see at [appleinsider.com](http://appleinsider.com), and not the FBI roster!

Anyway…

Alpha 7 is a bit after my time, but during my time of using other products, I think LaCroy had one of the best “rough” products out there.

I honestly don’t know if Alpha 7 is good or not. I should take the time to try it. I’ll sort of have to take your word for it, but I do mostly like LS and I think LaCroy is an excellent “voice”. They make good product and “keep their nose clean” (a big thing to me in what is mostly a dishonest market that doesn’t have anybody’s good in mind, really).

I only wish they made something after Impi, which seemed to be a bit of a misstep.

I also wish George Dodd would make something new. Does LS still have Xcite Wipes?

I really like that guy. I wish KioTech didn’t go almost exclusively into fishing lures. Also, since Dodd seems to take a gentle approach not too dissimilar to mine (i.e., refined product, good for social uses), I’d really like to see what else he could come out with.

I’d rather “worry” about someone decent, gentle (and legally compliant!) like Dodd “kicking” [Instant Openness](https://a314.com/product/instant-openness/)’ “ass”, than I would someone kicking the ass of our staff and their kids, I’ll tell you that!

Anyway, enough from me, lest I start to rant. As I said originally, though, sometimes rough is good – even right down to the core design (the molecules themselves). I actually liked one of the rougher synthesis’ of androstenone I have over the more clinical synthesis. For some purposes, anyway.

A314 benefits from the cleaner synthesis route, while something like MX292 benefits from the rougher one. Something we never would’ve known unless we had done the actual work over the years to split test the hell out of this stuff.

I hope today’s marketers who step over the line to become nothing more than street cons selling Rolodexes in Time Square, learn that the “old way” – good ol’ R&D and testing trials – eventually pays off.

Their BS ads and ballsy tricks may “work” in the short term, but the fact is that Thomas Edison’s lightbulb wouldn’t have lasted as long as it did without the very real sweat equity put into designing the damn thing in the first place.

[http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/50209\_1\_468.jpeg](http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/50209_1_468.jpeg)

Keep in mind, that despite some of his personal foibles, Thomas Edison is widely acknowledged as the person who created the first high production R&D model. i.e, the man who basically “invented inventing”.

I may not like how things seemed to play out with Tesla, but I’ve got to credit the man for his actual positive contributions. We are in a sense, nothing but a modern variation of Edison’s Menlo Park experiment (and later, Bell Labs), combined with some of the principles of the modern internet.

Again, I better shut up before I write a book on this stuff… but I’ll end by giving kudos to other companies like LaCroy, KioTech, Pherin Pharmaceuticals and maybe even the guys behind Alpha 7 who seem to understand this! Thanks, guys, for taking a basically classical approach to product development and sales. You’re some of the few good ones.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BLADE](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/blade/32/2083_2.png) [@BLADE](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/BLADE)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/2 "2009-08-18T06:29:48Z")

</div>

> [@Turn up the heat / Alpha 7 ...same?](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/turn-up-the-heat-alpha-7-same/31639/3):
>
> > [@Turn up the heat / Alpha 7 ...same?](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/turn-up-the-heat-alpha-7-same/31639/3):
> >
> > Alpha 7 contains the “big 3” (nol,none, rone), I forget the exact ratios though. I had good results with it, though it’s a bit “rougher” than AD products. No buffering.
> 
> Some like it rough.
> 
> Hey now! I didn’t originally mean what that obviously sounds like, but I guess that’s true, too. 😉
> 
> You’ll always tend to find, however, my mix philosophy and refinements getting the way of this roughness – even when I don’t mean to, ala MX292 (the design intent of which was to be “bomb” like – i.e., a big effect, yes, but with lots of schrapnel and rough edges!)
> 
> That’s why I like different quality voices in the market. The key being _quality_ voices; I could do without fraud being used in marketing, and other types of BS, I’ll tell you that! This should be Nvidia vs. ATI type stuff, and nothing more.
> 
> Our forum’s biggest debates should be closer to what you see at [appleinsider.com](http://appleinsider.com), and not the FBI roster!
> 
> Anyway…
> 
> Alpha 7 is a bit after my time, but during my time of using other products, I think LaCroy had one of the best “rough” products out there.
> 
> I honestly don’t know if Alpha 7 is good or not. I should take the time to try it. I’ll sort of have to take your word for it, but I do mostly like LS and I think LaCroy is an excellent “voice”. They make good product and “keep their nose clean” (a big thing to me in what is mostly a dishonest market that doesn’t have anybody’s good in mind, really).
> 
> I only wish they made something after Impi, which seemed to be a bit of a misstep.
> 
> I also wish George Dodd would make something new. Does LS still have Xcite Wipes?
> 
> I really like that guy. I wish KioTech didn’t go almost exclusively into fishing lures. Also, since Dodd seems to take a gentle approach not too dissimilar to mine (i.e., refined product, good for social uses), I’d really like to see what else he could come out with.
> 
> I’d rather “worry” about someone decent, gentle (and legally compliant!) like Dodd “kicking” Instant Openness’ “ass”, than I would someone kicking the ass of our staff and their kids, I’ll tell you that!
> 
> Anyway, enough from me, lest I start to rant. As I said originally, though, sometimes rough is good – even right down to the core design (the molecules themselves). I actually liked one of the rougher synthesis’ of androstenone I have over the more clinical synthesis. For some purposes, anyway.
> 
> A314 benefits from the cleaner synthesis route, while something like MX292 benefits from the rougher one. Something we never would’ve known unless we had done the actual work over the years to split test the hell out of this stuff.
> 
> I hope today’s marketers who step over the line to become nothing more than street cons selling Rolodexes in Time Square, learn that the “old way” – good ol’ R&D and testing trials – eventually pays off.
> 
> Their BS ads and ballsy tricks may “work” in the short term, but the fact is that Thomas Edison’s lightbulb wouldn’t have lasted as long as it did without the very real sweat equity put into designing the damn thing in the first place.
> 
> [http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/50209\_1\_468.jpeg](http://www.trendhunter.com/images/phpthumbnails/50209_1_468.jpeg)
> 
> Keep in mind, that despite some of his personal foibles, Thomas Edison is widely acknowledged as the person who created the first high production R&D model. i.e, the man who basically “invented inventing”.
> 
> I may not like how things seemed to play out with Tesla, but I’ve got to credit the man for his actual positive contributions. We are in a sense, nothing but a modern variation of Edison’s Menlo Park experiment (and later, Bell Labs), combined with some of the principles of the modern internet.
> 
> Again, I better shut up before I write a book on this stuff… but I’ll end by giving kudos to other companies like LaCroy, KioTech, Pherin Pharmaceuticals and maybe even the guys behind Alpha 7 who seem to understand this! Thanks, guys, for taking a basically classical approach to product development and sales. You’re some of the few good ones.

I know George Dodd is still going - I remember reading that the Excite Wipes seem to have been taken over by someone else, but I have a cologne of his that you can still buy online. I can’t say i like the scent - too feminine but feels like a pure Androstenol product to me.

Alpha 7 I’ve tried and don’t mind - but I’ve never been able to find much out about the manufacturer or what, if anything, else they make.

Lacroy’s stuff is great - although not versatile 🙂

At the risk of sounding like I’m sucking up, I’m very glad I found my way here - the diversity of products and the wide spectrum of situations over which they can be used is tremendous.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/3 "2009-08-18T07:08:13Z")

</div>

> [@BLADE](#):
>
> I know George Dodd is still going - I remember reading that the Excite Wipes seem to have been taken over by someone else, but I have a cologne of his that you can still buy online. I can’t say i like the scent - too feminine but feels like a pure Androstenol product to me.

He sold off KioTech for something like $10M, and then started a “love project”. (a “business” where passion and interest come before, often far before, money)

That love project is over at [aromasciences.com](http://aromasciences.com), and it exists in a little house over in Scotland that has some real character. However, he doesn’t really make anything new in the phero realm. PheroFragrance was the last entry.

It’s probably too much trouble to do much else, although I recently read a blog where someone talked excitedly about going to one of his in-person workshops. Very cool.

> [@](#):
>
> Alpha 7 I’ve tried and don’t mind - but I’ve never been able to find much out about the manufacturer or what, if anything, else they make.
> 
> Lacroy’s stuff is great - although not versatile 🙂
> 
> At the risk of sounding like I’m sucking up, I’m very glad I found my way here - the diversity of products and the wide spectrum of situations over which they can be used is tremendous.

Well, thank you very much. I _really_ appreciate that. I’m glad we’re doing something of value to you.

You know, this project first started as investigation into the broad reality of pheromones, be it good or bad.

It’s like using a spectrograph on a lightbulb. You take a look at what’s actually “there”, good or bad. You “see” the possibly dangerous UV frequencies (UV C), the beneficial ones, and everything else. You get a true objective view, minus any opinion.

That’s what I wanted in the world of pheromones. I saw they did something, but certainly not what they were advertised to do. That’s why I started my initial explorations.

Back something like 11 years ago, before I tried a product from Erox, I actually clumped pheromones together with pop astrology. I didn’t think much of it.

After diving into a reality based exploration of pheromones for long enough, I got to the point where I saw there was enough reality to these molecules. I had enough data to wow and surprise me, to satisfy my curiosities. This happened a couple years ago. I then had to decide whether to continue the project or not, so I could focus on other projects of interest.

I decided to continue, of course (although the decision did face some challenges recently).

Much, if not most, of the reasons for continuing exist within the realm of non-sexual (or not directly sexual) applications.

The stuff that really tugged at my heart every time I thought about changing this project dramatically or even shutting it done, is all of the feedback we’ve received to things like A314, [Instant Honesty](https://a314.com/product/instant-honesty/) and Shine. It’s probably those 3 that have changed the most lives for the better. When we had some problems with an attack onstaff recentl, you couldn’t believe the outpouring of support and evidence we saw for how our products make everyday life better. That’s something I just can’t ignore or throw away!

If we can get to the next version of our project without getting hurt along the way (or distracted by artificially created nonsense), we can do some serious good in this world. We can help heal loneliness, better work environments, improve families, etc.

> **[Loneliness: Human Nature and the Need for Social Connection: Cacioppo, John T.,...](https://www.amazon.com/Loneliness-Human-Nature-Social-Connection/dp/0393335283)**
>
> Buy Loneliness: Human Nature and the Need for Social Connection on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders

Free article:  
[The Lonely American](http://www.utne.com/Spirituality/Reconnect-Technology-Society-Lonely-American.aspx)

We can basically improve all the “stuff” that occurs after you wake until you sleep. That’s the bulk of your life. (and yeah, sure, we do have some sexy stuff, too, but…)

This is something I’m quite proud of, and it’s certainly worth working for. A “despite all odds” type of thing.

Now I just gotta see how to work it all out with the changing economy and legal landscape (the US’ already crazy litigious environment just got a little worse in March). We were already [disadvantaged compared to Europe or even Canada](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/gli_2.htm), but it’s even more complex now [Shift Toward State Rules on Product Liability](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124285702885340713.html#articleTabs%3Dcomments)

These laws are distorted in a way whereby they do not actually protect honest consumers. Products tend to be safer in Europe due to better designed regulations, yet as you can read, Dow Chemical’s legal expenses are over 100 times lower in Europe. The only true beneficiary are lawyers who can create lawsuits in the US that would not be (and are not) taken seriously elsewhere.

> **[International Product Liability](https://books.google.com/books?id=QFJMOiWENOcC&pg=PP26&lpg=PP26&dq=european+liability+law+vs.+us&source=bl&ots=HV5dOInCLi&sig=2yyK-rqlgk9R9HAi1xNG8fRmj8c&hl=en&ei=k2eKSoXZFoTYsQP-ut3FDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=&f=false)**
>
> "International Product Liability", 2006 edition, with nearly 600 pages, offers contributions from 18 jurisdictions in Australasia, Europe, and North America. Expert practitioners clearly set out the liabilities and obligations of manufacturers, the...

Funny, I don’t remember the Constitution beginning with “We the lawyers of the United States”.

Anyway, these various challenges are not easy for a small company (and by “small” here, I mean almost anything not large enough to be “public”, since few private firms really have the money to tackle every little thing they have to deal with)

I think this is why you often see small technology developers so eager to “sell out” to big guys. The legal landscape in the US is crazy. It’s definitely biased against invention these days, quite unlike the days of Edison or Bell.

With all of the changing variables that are out of our control, it’s like trying to build a house on quicksand. Tricky stuff. While some might call it impossible, I prefer to think of it as simply “needlessly complex”. 🙂

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![tezza23](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/tezza23/32/1375_2.png) [@tezza23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tezza23)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:15am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/4 "2009-08-18T10:15:13Z")

</div>

Mharris, thanks for posting that. I find the insights into the design process fascinating. [The only other person who does anything like this that I know of is Steve Cole at ADB, Inc., a company that publishes boardgames and role-playing games based on Star Trek. Like Androtics, ADB has a very active forum and a fanatically loyal customer base.]

Anyway, can you explain in layman’s terms what the difference between a “rough” and “smooth” synthesis of a [pheromone](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) is? I thought that a molecule was a molecule?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MHarris](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/mharris/32/2107_2.png) [@MHarris](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MHarris)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/5 "2009-08-18T16:57:29Z")

</div>

> [@tezza23](#):
>
> Mharris, thanks for posting that. I find the insights into the design process fascinating. [The only other person who does anything like this that I know of is Steve Cole at ADB, Inc., a company that publishes boardgames and role-playing games based on Star Trek. Like Androtics, ADB has a very active forum and a fanatically loyal customer base.]

You’re very welcome.

Thanks for the reference. I used to like Star Trek once upon a time, but I’m not familiar with that game company yet. There was another one present back in BBS days, who had a really cute little phrase generator. I helped them convert that to a screensaver way back when. Sam… gosh, it’s hard to remember. I’ve done so much between then and now, I’m afraid my head leaked. 🙂

> [@](#):
>
> Anyway, can you explain in layman’s terms what the difference between a “rough” and “smooth” synthesis of a pheromone is? I thought that a molecule was a molecule?

Beyond coming up with ideas for new structures (mind you I have a chemist execute those ideas, I do not do that myself), the more hands-on function I deal with is testing those structures, and making new mixes with those structures. There are certainly perceivable differences in a “rough” vs. “smooth” mix.

A rough mix would be as Mountain Jim would say… not as much buffering. I’d also say not as much “refinement”. More basic, sometimes it’s like a speedo swimtrunk vs. Armani thing.

The thing about “refinement”, though, is that it doesn’t always get as much attention as does something unrefined. Depends on context to a great extent, though.

A purple cow at your workplace would get a LOT of attention.

Similarly, a construction worker in full gear would get a lot of attention at an art soiree.

Someone in a nice suite wouldn’t necessarily get as much attention as the construction worker, not unless it was a REALLY nice suit. A truly exceptional suit that rose above and beyond what everyone else was wearing.

Incongruencey can work for you sometimes, in terms of generating attention. Sometimes you just want to “stick out”, you know?

I find that for those purposes, both very rough and extremely refined mixes would work well. The ones in-between those two specific points, not as well.

Basically, extremes work well for garnering attention.

This is in terms of mixes only, not the molecules that make them up. I’ll explain crude vs. refined chemicals in just a moment. I’ll explain one way I think of it, anyway, that seems relatively easy to explain.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![djandarial](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/djandarial/32/1667_2.png) [@djandarial](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/djandarial)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/6 "2009-08-18T17:08:23Z")

</div>

This is a quite interesting discussion.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![1Alpha](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/1alpha/32/190_2.png) [@1Alpha](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/1Alpha)\
**Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/rough-design-vs-refined-thomas-edison-r-d-vs-time-square-rolodex-salesmen/31653/7 "2012-07-03T10:39:50Z")

</div>

> [@MHarris](#):
>
> You’re very welcome.
> 
> I find that for those purposes, both very rough and extremely refined mixes would work well. The ones in-between those two specific points, not as well.
> 
> Basically, extremes work well for garnering attention.
> 
> This is in terms of mixes only, not the molecules that make them up. **I’ll explain crude vs. refined chemicals in just a moment. I’ll explain one way I think of it, anyway, that seems relatively easy to explain**.

Tan, tan, tannnn… The Cliff Hanger… The difference between crude and refined chemicals post… I’m still waiting after all these years. 😉

Loved the Thread and the heart that goes into these mone products! 🆒🆒🆒