# Simulating the 'Cleopatra trick'... **URL:** \ **Category:** Women's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [April 3, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687 "2011-04-03T13:12:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/42 "2011-04-12T17:00:08Z")
Oh and by the way, weren’t we discussing the affect of the Cleopatra? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Sebastian](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/john_sebastian/32/1060_2.png) [@John\_Sebastian](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/John_Sebastian)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/43 "2011-04-13T12:43:12Z")
> [@Taggle](#): > > Oh and by the way, weren’t we discussing the affect of the Cleopatra? 🙂 Thanks for trying to re-rail the thread, Taggle. 🙂 Crack that whip! _crack!_ ---
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/44 "2011-04-13T19:10:58Z")
> [@John\_Sebastian](#): > > Thanks for trying to re-rail the thread, Taggle. 🙂 > > Crack that whip! _crack!_ Although it will probably kill it, like it always happens… Too bad, because the subject is interestíng… Like I never knew that perfume on top could actually help spread the “message”(😃) I always figured it would just kill the effect… ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/45 "2011-04-13T20:48:00Z")
Taggle, using perfume/cologne doesn’t kill the effect. Perfume actually aids in diffusing the [pheromone](https://pheromonelabs.com/shop/) molecules and helps to get them out there… to spread your love. 🙂 Bella ---
**Author:** ![John\_Sebastian](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/john_sebastian/32/1060_2.png) [@John\_Sebastian](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/John_Sebastian)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/46 "2011-04-14T01:15:42Z")
> [@Taggle](#): > > Although it will probably kill it, like it always happens… > > Too bad, because the subject is interestíng… Like I never knew that perfume on top could actually help spread the “message”(😃) I always figured it would just kill the effect… If that were the case, none of our products would work. 🙂 You can actually order from us any of our fragrances in either alcohol or DPG base without molecules or of course use any of your other favorite perfumes. (But ours are designed to carry such things rather than mask) ---
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/47 "2011-04-14T05:04:44Z")
> [@John\_Sebastian](#): > > If that were the case, none of our products would work. 🙂 > > You can actually order from us any of our fragrances in either alcohol or DPG base without molecules or of course use any of your other favorite perfumes. (But ours are designed to carry such things rather than mask) I didn’t use to think of the effect as a phero-thing, and even if I did, I wouldn’t have taken it for granted that the natural (weak) pheromones worked exactly the same way 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/48 "2011-04-14T08:15:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I didn’t use to think of the effect as a phero-thing, and even if I did, I wouldn’t have taken it for granted that the natural (weak) pheromones worked exactly the same way 🙂 I wouldn’t call our natural pheromones weak. Scent carries them. In the case of your natural pheromones though its usually the scent of BO which most people find unpleasant thats doing the carrying. 😃 I think in the past few generations especially with all the bath and hygiene products out there that we all use and the daily showers most people take its really hampered our own natural pheromone signatures or at least the ability for your signature to get out there and mingle making them seem weak. Your natural pheromones are not weak, we just wash them away more. In the “olden days” people didnt shower or bathe daily. They didnt wash their cloths after each wear. The only hygiene products they used were soap. Perfume was used to mask the scent of BO as well as to cause allure. People always knew on a subconscious level, some like Cleopatra even were conscious of it. There are letters in the historical archives from Napoleon to Josephine with him stating. “will be home in 3 days dont wash” . Its said it was because her own natural scent turned him on so much that he would make this request. Tisha ---
**Author:** ![pheroUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@pheroUserName](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/pheroUserName)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/49 "2011-04-14T18:42:42Z")
Well I decided to take the plunge and order a vial of ‘vulva’. The stuff seems to be coming from Germany, so not sure how long it will take to get here… But I will report back my results when it arrives. I do not intend to endorse the product one way or the other, I just feel that in order to have a honest discussion about simulating the Cleopatra trick (the subject of this thread), we are going to need to explore all available options currently on the market. There are a few other products I have my eye on as well (from AD and others), so I will keep you posted. ---
**Author:** ![ASutton06](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/asutton06/32/323_2.png) [@ASutton06](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/ASutton06)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/50 "2011-04-14T19:14:47Z")
So wait, does the Cleopatra method NOT work if you’re on the pill? ---
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/51 "2011-04-14T20:29:02Z")
> [@ASutton06](#): > > So wait, does the Cleopatra method NOT work if you’re on the pill? No matter what you’re on its still totally hot, just to DO it! Any guys objecting…? ---
**Author:** ![pheroUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@pheroUserName](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/pheroUserName)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/52 "2011-04-14T20:51:23Z")
Xev mentioned a few pages back… > [@](#): > > First, the few research papers there are on copulins indicated that only about 30% of the female test subjects produced significant amounts of copulins at any time during their cycle. If that group of study subjects is representative of all women, then 70% of us don’t have the highly attractive smell, no matter how healthy and clean we are. Do you happen to have more details on this study? Did birth control, ect… have any impact on the 70% of women who just plain did not have a ‘highly attractive smell’? ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/53 "2011-04-14T21:17:47Z")
> [@ASutton06](#): > > _ **So wait, does the Cleopatra method NOT work if you’re on the pill?** _ > [@xev](#): > > _ **The problems with using the Cleopatra trick are multiple.** _ > > _ **First, the few research papers there are on copulins indicated that only about 30% of the female test subjects produced significant amounts of copulins at any time during their cycle. If that group of study subjects is representative of all women, then 70% of us don’t have the highly attractive smell, no matter how healthy and clean we are.** _ > > _ **Second, the proportions of chemicals in the copulins changes throughout the cycle, and only the secretions during the “fertile phase” caused the testosterone reactions in the male subjects. This would mean that among the minority of women that produce copulins at all, the Cleopatra trick would only work well for a few days out of the month, would work less well before and after the fertile phase, and for obvious reasons would not be an option during menstruation.** _ > > _ **Third, there is the age factor. Presumably, copulin production declines with age. I don’t know of a study that has shown it, so this is just an assumption.** _ > > _ **That is why artificial copulin products are such a good thing.** _ > [@xev](#): > > _ **One more thing – another paper indicated that birth control pills cause drastic decreases in copulin production.** _ > [@pheroUserName](#): > > _ **Xev mentioned a few pages back…** _ > > _ **Do you happen to have more details on this study? Did birth control, ect… have any impact on the 70% of women who just plain did not have a ‘highly attractive smell’?** _ Yes, xev, is correct! 🙂 Frankly, Sutton, if you’re on the pill you’d have more luck using a synthetic copulins product than trying to get a positive response with your own copulins. Or you could try an allegedly “natural” copulins product like Vulva. Ever wonder why after having children so many couples don’t understand why they just don’t seem to be able to get along anymore? The normal pressures that accompany the birth of a child are at work, of course, and perfectly understandable but that might not be the whole story. Especially not if she wakes up one day and says, "Holy shit. Who _is_ this guy?..or vice versa, “WTF happened to the girl I married?” 😮 Using the pill definitely effects your natural copulins production. And as we know, the scent of copulins is very important in the dance of attracting a mate. It has everything to do with sniffing out Mr./Ms. Right and how taking The Pill effects our choice of mates. Yeah, he looks good but does he _smell_ good? It’s chemistry, baby. Seems the nose knows better than the eyes in the long run. Anyways, this article sheds some light on the subject and should give you some food for thought. If nothing else it’ll get ya thinkin’ about the probable consequences of using chemical birth control when you’re hoping to truly “perceive” a potential mate and for him to truly “perceive” you. 😉 [http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/why-women-cant-sniff-out-mr-right-when-they-take-the-pill-ndash-and-how-it-affects-us-all-892862.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/why-women-cant-sniff-out-mr-right-when-they-take-the-pill-ndash-and-how-it-affects-us-all-892862.html) Bella ---
**Author:** ![xev](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/xev/32/1993_2.png) [@xev](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/xev)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/54 "2011-04-15T01:04:14Z")
> [@pheroUserName](#): > > Xev mentioned a few pages back… > > Do you happen to have more details on this study? Did birth control, ect… have any impact on the 70% of women who just plain did not have a ‘highly attractive smell’? They did take BC and cycle into account, but what I don’t know is whether the 70% non-producing contingent included the subjects on the pill. I thought I had the whole article but apparently I don’t, and my institution’s electronic subscription apparently doesn’t go back to 1975 for that paper, so I can’t access the whole thing. Here is the abstract: Volatile fatty acids, “copulins”, in human vaginal secretions **Richard P. Michael[c](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-484M9T4-6&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1975&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1718853994&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8295c3bac55cef18315451b56de300a0&searchtype=a#implicit0), [d](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-484M9T4-6&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1975&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1718853994&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8295c3bac55cef18315451b56de300a0&searchtype=a#implicit1), R.W. Bonsall[c](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-484M9T4-6&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1975&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1718853994&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8295c3bac55cef18315451b56de300a0&searchtype=a#implicit0), [d](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-484M9T4-6&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1975&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1718853994&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8295c3bac55cef18315451b56de300a0&searchtype=a#implicit1) and M. Kutner[li](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-484M9T4-6&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1975&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1718853994&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8295c3bac55cef18315451b56de300a0&searchtype=a#fn1), [c](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-484M9T4-6&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1975&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1718853994&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8295c3bac55cef18315451b56de300a0&searchtype=a#implicit0), [/li]** [**Psychoneuroendocrinology**](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03064530) [Volume 1, Issue 2](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%235154%231975%23999989997%23403879%23FLP%23&_cdi=5154&_pubType=J&view=c&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5de9e9912eb0538c99c5920ee661d5a3), 1975, Pages 153-163 **Abstract** (1) In a double-blind study using a new tampon method, 682 samples of vaginal secretions were collected from 50 healthy young women attending a university. (2) Samples were analyzed by gas chromatography for the volatile fatty acids (C2-C6) that have sex-attractant properties in infra-human primates. (3) All subjects produced some acids but acetic predominated; however, 30% of women provided samples containing more than 10 μg of other acids in addition to acetic, and these women formed a sub-group termed ‘producers’. (4) The content of volatile acids increased significantly during the first half of the cycle and declined during the second half of the cycle. (5) Increases in propanoic, methylpropanoic, butanoic, methylbutanoic and methylpentanoic acids contributed especially to the increased content during the first half of the cycle. (6) Women taking oral contraceptives had a lower overall content of acids in their vaginal secretions, and the mid-cycle increase was absent. (7) The mid-cycle increase was particularly well-marked in women ‘producers’. (8) The biosynthesis of the acids is discussed. ---
**Author:** ![xev](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/xev/32/1993_2.png) [@xev](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/xev)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/55 "2011-04-15T01:12:18Z")
> [@ASutton06](#): > > So wait, does the Cleopatra method NOT work if you’re on the pill? If the study that reported the lack of copulins in women on the pill is representative, then yes, that is exactly correct. Birth control messes up at least two chemically-mediated processes: 1. women on BC don’t produce copulins 2. most women, at least during their fertile phase, prefer the odors of men who are genetically dissimilar to them. Women on BC are attracted to the odors of men who are genetically similar to them. ---
**Author:** ![TwistedOstrich](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/twistedostrich/32/627_2.png) [@TwistedOstrich](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/TwistedOstrich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/56 "2011-04-15T03:56:24Z")
> [@Taggle](#): > > No matter what you’re on its still totally hot, just to DO it! > > Any guys objecting…? Are you by any chance the 5th element… Leeloo is that you? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/57 "2011-04-15T19:12:02Z")
> [@Bella](#): > > Yes, xev, is correct! 🙂 > > Frankly, Sutton, if you’re on the pill you’d have more luck using a synthetic copulins product than trying to get a positive response with your own copulins. Or you could try an allegedly “natural” copulins product like Vulva. > > Ever wonder why after having children so many couples don’t understand why they just don’t seem to be able to get along anymore? The normal pressures that accompany the birth of a child are at work, of course, and perfectly understandable but that might not be the whole story. Especially not if she wakes up one day and says, "Holy shit. Who _is_ this guy?..or vice versa, “WTF happened to the girl I married?” 😮 > > Using the pill definitely effects your natural copulins production. And as we know, the scent of copulins is very important in the dance of attracting a mate. > > It has everything to do with sniffing out Mr./Ms. Right and how taking The Pill effects our choice of mates. Yeah, he looks good but does he _smell_ good? It’s chemistry, baby. Seems the nose knows better than the eyes in the long run. > > Anyways, this article sheds some light on the subject and should give you some food for thought. If nothing else it’ll get ya thinkin’ about the probable consequences of using chemical birth control when you’re hoping to truly “perceive” a potential mate and for him to truly “perceive” you. 😉 > > [http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/why-women-cant-sniff-out-mr-right-when-they-take-the-pill-ndash-and-how-it-affects-us-all-892862.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/why-women-cant-sniff-out-mr-right-when-they-take-the-pill-ndash-and-how-it-affects-us-all-892862.html) > > Bella But basically this also says that if you were wearing mones in the start of a relationsship, you risk loosing you boyfriend/girlfriend if you stop, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/58 "2011-04-15T21:23:04Z")
> [@Taggle](#): > > But basically this also says that if you were wearing mones in the start of a relationsship, you risk loosing you boyfriend/girlfriend if you stop, doesn’t it? It would if attraction and relationships were only based on pheromones but there not. Chemical attraction is only a small part of the picture. Its not what holds a relationship together. Pheromones just open a door for you to interact and communicate more with others giving you more opportunity. You have to walk through the door though. 😉 Tisha ---
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/59 "2011-04-16T07:42:07Z")
> [@tisha23](#): > > It would if attraction and relationships were only based on pheromones but there not. Chemical attraction is only a small part of the picture. Its not what holds a relationship together. > > Pheromones just open a door for you to interact and communicate more with others giving you more opportunity. You have to walk through the door though. 😉 > > Tisha The artical just stated that people found the wrong partners, because thay went for the wrong “smell”. So if you change your own “smell” it means that the people attracted to your smell aren’t the right types. Well thats what I get out of it. But off course it’s not just a matter of smell, I’m just saying that not using BC because of this, should also mean not using mones, because it would interfer in the same way… ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/60 "2011-04-16T08:35:13Z")
> [@](#): > > The artical just stated that people found the wrong partners, because thay went for the wrong “smell”. So if you change your own “smell” it means that the people attracted to your smell aren’t the right types. Yep thats what it says and sure when your on the pill or wearing copulins you can attract both the wrong and right types, Neither of them discriminate, however there will be other indicators that will let you know this guy is not the one. So suppose your on the pill when you first meet a guy and you end up getting married then 5 years into that marriage you go off the pill. Neither person is not going to wake up one day and say… “Your the wrong type” or suddenly not be attracted to there partner. Its in the initial attraction that the change of smell can effect you most. If you lack copulins guys may not notice you as much or hit on you so you can’t find out if there are the other factors between the two of you to make a great relationship. Tisha ---
**Author:** ![Taggle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/taggle/32/1793_2.png) [@Taggle](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Taggle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687/61 "2011-04-16T12:06:09Z")
> [@tisha23](#): > > Yep thats what it says and sure when your on the pill or wearing copulins you can attract both the wrong and right types, Neither of them discriminate, however there will be other indicators that will let you know this guy is not the one. > > So suppose your on the pill when you first meet a guy and you end up getting married then 5 years into that marriage you go off the pill. Neither person is not going to wake up one day and say… “Your the wrong type” or suddenly not be attracted to there partner. > > Its in the initial attraction that the change of smell can effect you most. If you lack copulins guys may not notice you as much or hit on you so you can’t find out if there are the other factors between the two of you to make a great relationship. > > Tisha I kind of agree, however I don’t think the people who wrote the piece does ☹ Well, I would prefer practically any other type than my usual 😃 [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687.md?page=2) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/simulating-the-cleopatra-trick/49687.md?page=4)