# The effect of copulins (woah) **URL:** \ **Category:** Men's Pheromone Advice & Field Reports\ **Created:** [July 13, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656 "2009-07-13T08:53:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![oom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@oom](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/oom)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/61 "2009-07-23T20:18:42Z")
> [@diane999](#): > > I’m a little confused here. I’ll go back and read the article more thoroughly when I have a little more time. But here are some initial problems I have with this study. > > \ > > Diane I can’t argue with your point that the study could be better designed. Your points are either correct, valid, or both. As I see it our discussion has been around what the long-term effects of copulins are on men, specifically around testosterone levels. All from the original piece of copulin domination fiction. _Outside_ of the initial Testosterone spike seen assuming a regular and frequent exposure to I see three possibilities: 1. After the initial spike the testosterone levels **return to pre-exposure levels** even with regular and frequent exposure to copulins 2. After the initial spike the testosterone levels **remain higher than pre-exposure levels** with regular and frequent exposure to copulins 3. After the initial spike the **testosterone falls to lower levels** than pre-exposure and stays lower for a significant time, even with regular and frequent exposure to copulins Personally based on what I know so far (which isn’t too much) I’d bet on (3) being the case. All I’m completely unsure about is what regularity/dosage is needed to suppress the testosterone levels below normal, how under normal the levels remain, and whether and when the levels recover after cessation of copulin exposure. Like you (I think) I would like there to be a better study that uses a better copulins mix, using a more general population sample, and that better controls for some obvious factors (such as diet). Until that mythical piece of research arrives, or I find a few hundred thousand to run a trial myself, there’s another study that [Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi) mentioned in another thread which I’m trying to track down. If I find it, you’ll be the first to know. Out of interest, if you were to guess about the effects of long term exposure to copulins on testosterone production, which one of 1/2/3 would you guess? Or would you guess another outcome entirely? Oom. ---
**Author:** ![diane999](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/diane999/32/1110_2.png) [@diane999](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/diane999)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/62 "2009-07-23T23:05:32Z")
> [@oom](#): > > I can’t argue with your point that the study could be better designed. Your points are either correct, valid, or both. > > As I see it our discussion has been around what the long-term effects of copulins are on men, specifically around testosterone levels. All from the original piece of copulin domination fiction. > > _Outside_ of the initial Testosterone spike seen assuming a regular and frequent exposure to I see three possibilities: > > 1. After the initial spike the testosterone levels **return to pre-exposure levels** even with regular and frequent exposure to copulins > 2. After the initial spike the testosterone levels **remain higher than pre-exposure levels** with regular and frequent exposure to copulins > 3. After the initial spike the **testosterone falls to lower levels** than pre-exposure and stays lower for a significant time, even with regular and frequent exposure to copulins > > Personally based on what I know so far (which isn’t too much) I’d bet on (3) being the case. All I’m completely unsure about is what regularity/dosage is needed to suppress the testosterone levels below normal, how under normal the levels remain, and whether and when the levels recover after cessation of copulin exposure. > > Like you (I think) I would like there to be a better study that uses a better copulins mix, using a more general population sample, and that better controls for some obvious factors (such as diet). Until that mythical piece of research arrives, or I find a few hundred thousand to run a trial myself, there’s another study that [Gegogi](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Gegogi) mentioned in another thread which I’m trying to track down. If I find it, you’ll be the first to know. > > Out of interest, if you were to guess about the effects of long term exposure to copulins on testosterone production, which one of 1/2/3 would you guess? Or would you guess another outcome entirely? > > Oom. You are assuming that these patterns were shown in the study. But projection of none of those possibilities can be done based on this study, since there was \*\*_no statistically significant rise or fall of testosterone_ in their test subjects, using this particular copulin formulation. So, you could be barking up a totally wrong tree, here, supposing there was something there that maybe there wasn’t. Actually, the statistical analysis pretty much rules out that anything significant happened at all with this product… and so you can’t extrapolate what might happen with another product more complete product without answering a few basic questions, first. If I were to design new studies, I’d first use a formulation that contains the full range and correct ratios, and concentration of copulin fatty acids produced by “producers” that is recorded in the research literature. I’d use one single “batch” for all the tests, if possible, or do separate qualitative and quantitative analyses on each batch to make sure they were identical in formulation. This is important to rule out manufacturing discrepancies batch to batch. I’d institute precise dosing methods to have the option of controlling the exact amount of dosing, rather than the rather imprecise method used in this study of just smearing some on the upper lip. And I’d design the studies to ask the following questions: a) Can I duplicate Jutte’s findings of 150% increase in testosterone over baseline after exposure to copulins? b) What is the long term effects on testosterone levels with both periodic and consistent prolonged exposure to copulins? c) What are the long term effects on cortisol levels with both periodic and and consistent prolonged exposure to copulins? d) If there is a statistically significant rise in testosterone post exposure to copulins, is that rise offset by a following fall; and if so what is the maximum testosterone rise and fall; e) If there is a statistically significant rise (or fall) of cortisol post exposure to copulins, is that rise (or fall) offset by a following fall (or rise) in cortisol levels? f) If there are statistically significant rises and/or falls in either of these, is there a _discernible pattern_ with long term (periodic and consistent) exposure to copulins? e) What are the mood/behavioral/social changes associated with both periodic and prolonged exposure to copulins? Item e) above can be done with the standard inventories available. For all of these questions to be asked in a way that is relevant, the subjects would also need to be grouped based on several factors, like health, age, maybe even sexual orientation. I’d start with an adult male population between 20-40 years in age, of good health with no underlying physical or health problems, and then maybe later extend those studies to 40-50 range and those over 60. If you did this and also included the behavioral/mood inventories, there is a wealth of information that could be potentially mined… if the change in testosterone (or cortisol) can be verified. Diane ---
**Author:** ![oom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@oom](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/oom)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/63 "2009-07-24T07:45:18Z")
> [@diane999](#): > > You are assuming that these patterns were shown in the study. > > Diane I obviously need to learn to be clearer in my writing because **I do not see any of those patterns in the study.** I can _infer_ a link to (3) on my list, but nothing in the study is properly, strongly or scientifically making a case for it. > [@oom](#): > > 1. After the initial spike the testosterone levels **return to pre-exposure levels** even with regular and frequent exposure to copulins > 2. After the initial spike the testosterone levels **remain higher than pre-exposure levels** with regular and frequent exposure to copulins > 3. After the initial spike the **testosterone falls to lower levels** than pre-exposure and stays lower for a significant time, even with regular and frequent exposure to copulins The three options are simply possibilities after repeated and regular exposure to copulins. I have a hunch (_not based on **one** particular article_) that long-term regular copulin exposure will result in a lower testosterone output, option (3) in my list. ---
**Author:** ![diane999](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/diane999/32/1110_2.png) [@diane999](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/diane999)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:42am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/64 "2009-07-24T08:42:13Z")
> [@oom](#): > > I obviously need to learn to be clearer in my writing because **I do not see any of those patterns in the study.** I can _infer_ a link to (3) on my list, but nothing in the study is properly, strongly or scientifically making a case for it. > > The three options are simply possibilities after repeated and regular exposure to copulins. I have a hunch (_not based on **one** particular article_) that long-term regular copulin exposure will result in a lower testosterone output, option (3) in my list. Okay, so again, you are asking me to conjecture something based on your hunch. I can’t do that. I’d have to ask the questions I stated above, and based on those answers (if they are answered) I could then possibly make some predictions. Or I’d have to see some better research done with statistically significant data. I don’t see the trend that you saw, sorry. Statistically, it wasn’t there, since all these values fell well within the margin of error. Diane ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:13am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/65 "2009-07-24T10:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **by oom** > I was searching for some information on copulins for self-effects and came across this article: > [copulins: http://www.geocities.com/n2crochet/index.html](http://www.geocities.com/n2crochet/index.html) > I couldn’t stop reading and I got more and more creeped-out as she describes the control she exerts over her husband through copulins. I am not laughing at anyone, many people have came to me concerned over the above site as well as the yahoo group of women out to control all men through vaginal fluid. If your new to the mone world it can be scary. Its just craziness, I have used copulins for years and they don’t control your husband or any male or make them into zombies. Its widely known in the pheromone world that they are a bunch of nut jobs over there so I wouldn’t worry about it or let it influence your use of mones. On any given subject you can find fanatics who come up with outrageous claims. Believe me if anything she said were true of copulins wouldn’t you think she would have a bigger membership then 74 members ? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why you find the fact that it is possible to absorb copulins transdermally is so hard to believe, but the science (some of it from as far back as the 1920’s) disagrees with you. With the right molecule transdermal absorption through mucous membranes (male glans) and scrotum is an established fact. Whether or not females or males have more mucus membranes (women do) and substances are absorbed through them (yes this is possible) it wont have the effect she is claiming. Young fertile females make copulins and have sex all the time and men don’t turn into there sex slaves. Even if we assume its a dosage issue you would have to slather the copulins onto the mucus membranes for them to absorb not just smell them. Her claims have no bases of truth and have been proven wrong over and over While the study you sited is interesting to elderly men its not relevant to a true copulin response. They can not determine whether the exercise or the copulins caused the effect, Its widely known that as you age you loss muscle mass rapidly which has a direct effect on Testosterone levels. They state themselves they did not measure muscle mass or test solely on Pheromone effect but on the effect of both physical activity and mone exposure. In my opinion this renders the study useless as to how copulins work. There are to many other variables involved that can be causing data they are getting. It is a good start though but inconclusive. Its also been highly debated that you need a combination of visual and exposure to copulins or certain pheromones to gain the rise in Testosterone. It my opinion that you get a very small testosterone spike when you use copulins without a visual cue compared to the spike you get when they are worn by a women. Astrid Jutte studies indicate the same thing. I have never done my own testing of testosterone levels in men exposed to copulins but I have worn them for many many years in high dosages and my husbands Test levels are totally normal for his age at his last check up. He wont do anything I tell him to unless he wants to either LOL So we can rule out the zombie thing as well LOL Tisha ---
**Author:** ![oom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@oom](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/oom)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/66 "2009-07-24T14:34:07Z")
> [@diane999](#): > > Okay, so again, you are asking me to conjecture something based on your hunch. > > Diane I don’t want you to make a guess based on _my_ hunch at all. I want you to tell me what your guess is that copulins do over the long term, without having an experiment to prove it, but nonetheless based on the broader and deeper information _you already know_ about copulins. You obviously think that copulins do something otherwise you wouldn’t put in all the hard work and intellectual effort in the formulation work on copulins that you do. I’m not sure exactly what it is you believe copulins do, but my guess is that you believe they stimulate male attraction and/or can help female-male bonding **in the short term**. Another guess is that if you didn’t believe copulins could cause/illicit beneficial effects then you wouldn’t do all the work you do. All I asked is just to imagine a longer time dimenson to what you already believe copulins do: short-term to long-term. Either copulins do nothing to testosterone over the long term, or they increase levels, or they decrease levels, or possibly they do both in a wave-like way over a longish timeline. Of course you can choose not to make a guess, but to say you can’t make a guess isn’t believeable given that you possibly know more than anyone else on the board about the biochemistry of copulins. 🙂 If this misunderstanding is seen as getting out of hand I’m happy to take this away from the boards to private messages. Let me know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![diane999](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/diane999/32/1110_2.png) [@diane999](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/diane999)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/67 "2009-07-24T22:57:08Z")
Oom, I think you and I are having a good discussion. We are slowly trying to work our way to some sort of mutual understanding, and that is good. > [@oom](#): > > I don’t want you to make a guess based on _my_ hunch at all. I want you to tell me what your guess is that copulins do over the long term, without having an experiment to prove it, but nonetheless based on the broader and deeper information _you already know_ about copulins. The problem is that I don’t have enough deeper information to make those projections for you. I know that is frustrating and that this issue is important to you, so I apologize for that frustration. I wish I could make some sort of prediction, but there just isn’t enough data to support any long term effect projections. I want to see that data unearthed, however, the same as you do. > [@oom](#): > > You obviously think that copulins do something otherwise you wouldn’t put in all the hard work and intellectual effort in the formulation work on copulins that you do. I’m not sure exactly what it is you believe copulins do, but my guess is that you believe they stimulate male attraction and/or can help female-male bonding **in the short term**. Another guess is that if you didn’t believe copulins could cause/illicit beneficial effects then you wouldn’t do all the work you do. Yes, there is short term “burst” type of sexual seeking behavior in men with exposure to copulins. I’m not sure about classifying the other responses as bonding rather than socially adaptive, but that argument could be made. > [@oom](#): > > All I asked is just to imagine a longer time dimenson to what you already believe copulins do: short-term to long-term. > > Either copulins do nothing to testosterone over the long term, or they increase levels, or they decrease levels, or possibly they do both in a wave-like way over a longish timeline. > > Of course you can choose not to make a guess, but to say you can’t make a guess isn’t believeable given that you possibly know more than anyone else on the board about the biochemistry of copulins. 🙂 I can make this prediction with some certainty (it would still need to be tested): Periodic application of cops will always elicit sexual seeking behavior in men, possibly with a concomitant rise in testosterone. I know this because this is the way the natural system is designed, and it works very well. Since the natural system is periodic, if there is a drop in testosterone production when cops fade, it is reasonable to assume that testosterone will rise again with reintroduction to cops. However, since constant and prolonged exposure to cops is an artificial imposition on a natural system, it is impossible to predict what the effects will be. So much depends on initial conditions, and we just don’t know what those are. For example, don’t yet know how cops works to elicit sexual seeking behavior or how it signals testosterone rise in the male. If we knew that, then we could make some projections. If we knew, for example, that cops binds specifically to pheromone-like receptors, and we knew the class of receptors, we could garner some clues as to what pathways were being signaled. And from that we could make some guesses as to what the controls of this particular system are and how they might function. That is the bottom up method. On the other hand, if we knew the long term and short term pattern of testosterone rise and fall in conjunction with copulin exposure, we could infer some of the possible controls that are being activated. If we had actual brain imaging and other studies that showed gross activation of certain systems and subsystems, we could potentially infer what pathways were being activated and work our way down to an understanding. But at this point there just isn’t enough data. Diane ---
**Author:** ![Domnk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/domnk/32/2269_2.png) [@Domnk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Domnk)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/68 "2009-08-23T23:09:53Z")
There is something which is being ignored in that article, the fact that they were not having sex, but ‘coupling’. Coupling does not refer to mere sexual-intercourse, but the transfer of vaginal fluids forcibly _into_ the males penis, via the woman’s vaginal muscles. The males penis and testicles are then, reportedly, become ‘inflated’ and ‘swells’. > [@diane999](#): > > The urethra is another story, however during sexual excitement the seminal vesicles constantly ooze a sugary substance that lubricates the urethra, thereby pretty much excluding the possibility of pussy juice being pushed up there. The forceful movement of fluid into the urethra, bypasses this mechanism, does it not? This is a very disturbing topic, indeed, whether the process works or not, but the fact that the fluid is transferred to the gonads, and therefore the bloodstream, provides a more plausible explanation of the effects on the male subject. By the way, here is “Dr.” Sandra Morrishaun’s webpage, she, apparently, is a PhD and a Professor of Hormonology and Human Behavior at the University of Chicago. (I will be calling the University of Chicago to find out if she has ever worked there, because it is very difficult to find her online, see if she really exists) Home Page And to quote what this coupling is said to do specifically, "During this time, the female can vocally do the following: A) Change, remove, or insert memories. B) Tell the male what he sees, hears, feels, smells, tastes. C) Insert subconscious thoughts that will surface as male “ideas” or behavior later. D) Plant trigger words or actions that can cause thoughts, actions, or sensations in the male at later dates (days, weeks, even months). " “According to Dr. Morrishaun, copulins “disguise” themselves as the male’s polypeptides, which are neurotransmitters–the link of communication between the hypothalamus and the rest of the brain and body. Because copulins are more “aggressive” than polypeptides, they easily supplant the host’s neurotransmitters. Moreover, copulins appear to be addictive.” “Females report that males at this stage, as copulins are transmitting, steadily become “dumber”, repeating themselves or the female’s words, slurring, or mixing words up. Late in the coupling, females state that the male will typically become incoherent and finally go silent. Once a hypothalamus is flooded with copulins, the male brain is just sitting on idle, with only the bare minimum of thought process. In this state, the male is probably not thinking of anything at all, but any input from the female will become the male’s singular focus. This is the best occasion for accessing the limbic system effectively.” And her yahoo group, I’m attempting to find out if they cite any medical sources in their group, which could substantiate the claim of copulins acting as polypeptides within the male brain. [http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/copulins/join](http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/copulins/join) Here, there have been a few blogers who wrote about it, blogers _rolls eyes_ 😉 [O/our Journey into D/s: Female Hormones causes Male Submissiveness](http://spiritsjournal.blogspot.com/2005/06/female-hormones-causes-male.html) [Google Translate](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kaisub/e/e855938a61f30eaa2e7d46f74dc5ecce&ei=i7-RSpv1IovwMdGNlZIK&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSandra%2BMorrishaun%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D9Qg) Either way, the women who do this, are delusional. Here is the first reference I saw about this 😮 [Re: What are the Advantages of Feminine Men and Boys? – Young boys wearing dresses or girls clothes](http://www.voy.com/213601/9/190.html) Dominick ---
**Author:** ![Mecca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e79b87/32.png) [@Mecca](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Mecca)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/69 "2009-08-23T23:29:32Z")
how do you mix EOW dilution ---
**Author:** ![tezza23](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/tezza23/32/1375_2.png) [@tezza23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tezza23)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/70 "2009-08-24T00:17:31Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a very disturbing topic, indeed, whether the process works or not, but the **fact** that the fluid is transferred to the gonads, and therefore the bloodstream, provides a more plausible explanation of the effects on the male subject. (emphasis added) _Is_ it a fact? Given the other assertions made by this person which appear to be questionable if not total BS, I’m very sceptical of this assertion. From my experience a woman isn’t tight enough to manage enough of a vaccuum-lock to force anything down the urethra. The only way vaginal fluids are getting sucked back into the urethra is immediately after ejaculation (like squeezing the bulb of a turkey baster then releasing it - pressure forces stuff into the baster when you release). My take on it is that this woman’s got a rotten relationship with her husband. He cheats on her, she calls him an “arrogant lazy slob”. For some reasons unknown this “coupling” business has affected his behaviour and she’s latched onto a loony explanation for it. All this sex without ejaculation - they’ve just reinvented Tantra is all. ---
**Author:** ![Domnk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/domnk/32/2269_2.png) [@Domnk](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Domnk)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656/71 "2009-08-24T03:55:33Z")
> [@tezza23](#): > > _Is_ it a fact? Given the other assertions made by this person which appear to be questionable if not total BS, I’m very sceptical of this assertion. From my experience a woman isn’t tight enough to manage enough of a vaccuum-lock to force anything down the urethra. It is a fact, that it is theoretically possible. 🙄 A women has _much_ more control over her own vaginal muscles than is generally believed, [Kegel exercises: How to strengthen pelvic floor muscles - MayoClinic.com](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/kegel-exercises/WO00119) [Exercising Your Vagina: Kegels for Sexual Health](http://www.crankyeditor.com/Portfolio/Feature%20Writing/Health/Increasing%20Vaginal%20Muscle%20Tone.htm) [Kegel Exercises For Women (Discharge Care) Care Guide Information](http://www.drugs.com/cg/kegel-exercises-for-women-discharge-care.html) > [@tezza23](#): > > The only way vaginal fluids are getting sucked back into the urethra is immediately after ejaculation (like squeezing the bulb of a turkey baster then releasing it - pressure forces stuff into the baster when you release). Penises are not turkey basters, the theory has nothing to do with the penis ‘sucking’ anything up, Diane actually addressed this, > [@diane999](#): > > The urethra is another story, however during sexual excitement the seminal vesicles constantly ooze a sugary substance that lubricates the urethra, thereby pretty much excluding the possibility of pussy juice being pushed up there. I actually was addressing that in my last post, but accidentally quoted the wrong sentence, haha, my bad 😉🙄 The force exuded from a women’s vagina with untrained or weak pelvic muscles, having a typically low pressure differential, during sexual-intercourse, would surely not be enough to push vaginal fluids into the urethra, but a biological barrier is limited, and yes, such barriers do not withstand high pressure resistances well. That’s were the kegel exercises come into play. Dominick [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-effect-of-copulins-woah/30656.md?page=3)