# The Need For Men's Liberation **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [March 27, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337 "2010-03-27T19:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WildFlower](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/wildflower/32/1260_2.png) [@WildFlower](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/WildFlower)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/1 "2010-03-27T19:31:39Z")
I follow Ken Wilbers blog because I think he is one of the greatest minds alive today. This recent one I’m posting is a little different to his usual subject matter, but I thought some here might enjoy it, so here it is: +[kenwilber.com](http://kenwilber.com) - blog ([http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1](http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1)) Come on, let’s say it together: “Men are being oppressed.” It doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, does it? It sort of sticks in the back of the throat, and we almost need to look around to make sure no one is listening before we say it out loud. In today’s academic and cultural climate, it’s not easy to make a point like this—the kindest reaction you might receive is a cynical eye-roll. But really, why is it so difficult to admit that men could use a little help learning how to redefine themselves in today’s world, and how to “man up” in a new way to meet the challenges of our modern lives? Maybe it’s because our definitions for words like “oppression” and “power” are too limited, restricting our understanding of these dynamics to just a tiny shred of what’s actually going on beneath the surface of male/female relations. Just as our notions of “oppression” have often led us to perceive women as perennial victims, robbing them of a dignity they had never really been without, so do our notions of “power” keep our attention diverted from the very real issues men are dealing with today. “But men do have more power,” you might say, “just look at who is running the world!” A fair argument in some circles, but somewhat disingenuous when we take a closer look. For one, the amount of power men yield in economic and political spheres has very little impact upon the average guy in the street. And while it is certainly true that throughout history men have largely dominated the “public sphere”, it should be noted that the ratio of women in the workforce and the overall income gap between men and women is rapidly approaching some degree of balance. But more than anything, this critique of men’s power (and powerlessness) is completely missing the mark—because power is not defined by the amount of control a person has over other people, but the amount of control one has over his or her own life. In this sense, women’s power is too often overlooked, while men have yet to fully come to terms with their own power, as they are still being primed from birth to equate “manhood” with “disposability.” Men are constantly being locked into a single option—to excel in the “public sphere”, even to the point of breaking their own backs—with very little understanding or training around the “private sphere” options available to him. Meanwhile, men continue to place an unfair amount of cultural pressure upon women to pick up the slack in both spheres, without doing their own work to spend more time with the family, to develop their own emotional availability, to become a more involved father, and to focus on the interior realities of the home life. We are looking for new role models, new behaviors, and new ways for men to define themselves. We are looking for a path beyond the merely macho, beyond the feminized 90’s guy, and beyond the disposable hero. The goal is not to neuter men or to neutralize the sexes—quite the contrary, we are trying to find a radically improved masculinity, as well as a radically improved femininity, honoring the very real power yielded by males and females alike in both public and private spheres. We are now discovering a new generation of men and women—newly integrated men and women who can see beyond the narrow definitions of gender that have been handed to us, fluent in both interior and exterior realities, and finding new ways for both sexes and both genders to show their love for themselves and one another. **Instant Insights:** “Power” is not defined by the amount of control someone has over others, but the amount of control one has over his or her own life. Feminism can be defined as freeing females from being coerced into traditional female roles, and the same work needs to be done by men. Feminism did a great job of exploring issues of male power and female powerlessness, but not a great job at exploring issues of female power and male powerlessness. In terms of recognizing and developing their power, men are in a similar position today as women were in the late 1950’s, at the dawn of the feminist movement. As long as men do not rise to the challenge of redefining themselves for today’s world, women continue to be pressured to learn how to “row on both sides of the boat,” while men keep to their own side. The result? The boat just keeps going around in circles… In order to succeed, men need to learn from the feminist movements of recent decades, and use their work as a jumping-off point—and not to hold feminism or women’s studies as an opposition to men’s liberation. In order to take a truly comprehensive view of sex and gender, we need to look through at least four lenses: subjective/psychological (e.g. masculine vs. feminine), objective/biological (e.g. male vs. female), intersubjective/cultural (e.g. gender roles and definitions of “man” and “woman”), and interobjective/social (e.g. the techno-economic realities of the time). ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/2 "2010-03-27T21:25:34Z")
Interesting post. I agree that men require redefining in many ways. One of the major problems with that however is that we as men need some clarification from women first. Consider this, Harlequin romance novels have a very formulaic style of describing the ideal man, the prize as it were for the heroine of the story. Almost always the male is either a very typical alpha male archetype or a “Bad Boy with a soft side” cliche. The male almost always “rescues” the heroine. Either in the traditional sense of very real physical danger, or from the dreariness of her mundane life. The formula has gotten MORE successful over the years of the feminist movement…not less. Multiplying their annual sales several times over the past few decades and the romance genre accounts for 40% of paperback sales in the US currently. The formula for the “ideal man” is one also used by daytime soap opera’s with great success. What does this mean?, well it means that in spite of the many changes society and women have undergone in last half century; on some very profound level the “New Woman” still has a desire for the qualities associated with the “Classic Man”. Even today on womens talk shows men are bashed for being unemployed and supported by their wives or girlfriends while very little criticism is laid upon women who do likewise…they’re just being “traditional or old fashioned” after all. There is a great deal of confusion on the part of men stemming from this. During the late 70’s and early 80’s men were confused as to whether women wanted Alan Alda and Phil Donahue, or Clint Eastwood and Burt Reynolds. This identity crisis is basically a large scale version of the classic scenario where a woman bemoans her romantic misfortunes to a “nice guy” friend of hers who secretly carries a torch for her. Asking “why can’t I just find a nice guy” while the nice guy sits beside her with a shoulder, an understanding ear and a few kind words of encouragement to carry her through to the next time she passes him over for a “jerk”. It creates a sense of bitterness in men and can be seen as either blatant hypocrisy, or at best an inability to trust women to even know what they truly want. Men are reasonably simple. If a man truly thinks that doing certain things or acting a certain way will win him the heart of the woman he wants, make no mistake he’ll do it gladly. But the lack of congruence on both the individual level and from society and media portrayal on a larger scale creates a sense of us being required to perform a balancing act to rival any circus performers. We have to be dashing, attractive and sexy But faithful and monogamous We have to be hard working providers But not workaholics, women require time and attention We have to respect her independence and female strength Yet still be ready to ride a white horse to the rescue We have to romantically make her the center of our universe But don’t be all obsessive and creepy like. Be a modern liberated man that will open doors and pick up the check on a dinner date. I’m sure some women, including my number one fan will take resentment at these comments, and to be sure I actually saw things that way for quite a while. But true or not, it IS how many men perceive current expectations women have of them. So you see, before men can change, some clarification is in order. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/3 "2010-03-28T01:37:00Z")
LOL Am I your number one fan ??? 😃 Actually I do understand how its confusing for men. I cant tell you what all women want. I can only tell you what I want which would not clarify the question for anyone. I want and have a honest genuine strong faithful hard working partner. I got lucky and the one I found happens to be sexy as well LOL But mostly… I want a man who knows himself but is not self absorbed and takes the time to find out who I am and what I want and treats me as a individual not just a gender. > [@](#): > > During the late 70’s and early 80’s men were confused as to whether women wanted Alan Alda and Phil Donahue, or Clint Eastwood and Burt Reynolds. Ewwww LOL > [@](#): > > But the lack of congruence on both the individual level and from society and media portrayal on a larger scale creates a sense of us being required to perform a balancing act to rival any circus performers. Media is relatively fiction, I dont think it portrays men or women as they really are in our society. It just portrays what the writer dreams of and what he/she thinks we want. > [@](#): > > act to rival any circus performers. > We have to be dashing, attractive and sexy > But faithful and monogamous > We have to be hard working providers > But not workaholics, women require time and attention > We have to respect her independence and female strength > Yet still be ready to ride a white horse to the rescue > We have to romantically make her the center of our universe > But don’t be all obsessive and creepy like. > Be a modern liberated man > that will open doors and pick up the check on a dinner date. Let me ask and be honest with yourself … Do you want a women who is sexy and attractive at least to you ? _My father used to say… A women isnt loved because she is beautiful she is beautiful because she is loved. I always believed its the same for men. We dont love them because they are handsome they are handsome because we love them._ Anywho… Do you want one that is faithful and monogamous ? Do you want one who works hard and contributes to the household whether its financially or keeping the house and raising your kids ? Do you want them to pay attention to you and not the house, the job and kids all the time ? Do you want us to respect your strength and independence ? Do you want us to stand by you in times of trouble ? (white horse) Do you want us to put your thoughts and feelings first over other peoples ? (center of universe) Do you want us to trust you and not go ballistic when your female coworkers talk to you or the neighbor lady waves or would you rather we be creepy jealous and clingy ? The dinner check you got me on, I am married so we both pay LOL but I am sure you want someone who is considerate and acts polite. Its all in how you perceive it. Reality is what you believe it is. Suddenly all those requirement dont look so hard anymore do they ? 😉 Tisha ---
**Author:** ![Snoopyace](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/snoopyace/32/1727_2.png) [@Snoopyace](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Snoopyace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/4 "2010-03-28T02:33:53Z")
> [@tisha23](#): > > Suddenly all those requirement dont look so hard anymore do they ? 😉 > > Tisha Only hard to find. ---
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/5 "2010-03-28T04:03:53Z")
> [@tisha23](#): > > LOL Am I your number one fan ??? 😃 > > Tisha Actually that was me being sarcastic. A female poster has been neg repping me and leaving me anonymous comments about what a sexist jerk I am and how little I understand women. She’s done it a few times so I consider her a fan now. As for the rest, touche. and respect. ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/6 "2010-03-28T09:17:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Only hard to find. I gotta give you that one LOL > [@](#): > > Actually that was me being sarcastic. A female poster has been neg repping me and leaving me anonymous comments about what a sexist jerk I am and how little I understand women. She’s done it a few times so I consider her a fan now. > > As for the rest, touche. and respect. Oh Well thats not nice. I was just teasing when I asked that because I repped you (the positive kind) a few times the other day and now the system wont let me rep you till I spread the love. I think neg repping a persons opinion just because its not your own is weak and stupid. I bet they dont sign it either. Tisha ---
**Author:** ![Butterfly](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/butterfly/32/1942_2.png) [@Butterfly](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Butterfly)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/the-need-for-mens-liberation/37337/7 "2010-03-28T11:59:52Z")
I agree with Tisha, she said most of the things I was thinking. Also, you don’t have to be the right man for all women, just for one that suits you. When you think about the kind of lifestyle you want to lead, after marriage, you can prepare for that role, and accept the consequenses. Keep in mind that any situation that does not have a tradeoff, where your spouse is sacrificing for you is not going to result in a lasting marriage. Just be realistic and look for someone who is too. If you can’t be faithful, you can find someone who also likes to sleep around openly. That does mean you are fishing in a smaller pool and will have to be able to handle your wife’s dalliances. (I know an engaged couple like this and it works for them.) If you want a monogamous relationship, it is necessary to make romance and sexuality frequent and interesting enough to meet your own and your spouse’s needs when you can. Yet is also means having the discipline to postpone your needs in case of illness or business trip. If you are ambitious and want to put your career first, and expect your partner to move to the city where your promotion is and stay home when the kids are sick, it is only fair that she relies on you as a provider. If you want to stay home and take care of the kids, it is only fair you do most of the housework. If you want to have a double income family, realise that you may have to hire someone to clean, send kids to daycare and live in the middle of where you both are working. The beauty of this time is that we can choose our own roles, but that is also the difficulty. It is not easy to gauge what would be expected of you and what is fair to expect if those expectations are different for your friends and neighbours. When it comes to expectations, there are basically two kinds of people: Those who expect a lot of things and are willing to wait until that person comes along and those who want to start a family before 30 or 35 and pick the best person around at that time. Each choice brings its own risks along. The latter are more likely to divorce, the former more likely to stay single. The more balanced you are, the more things someone can love you for, the less likely they are to look elsewhere to meet unmet needs. If a woman is a great housewife, but neglects her friends, her looks, her intellectual life because she is keeping things perfect, her husband might well see her as the perfect maid and cook but not much else. If a man has been investing in his career from age 18 to 35 while neglecting his looks, social skills, friends and family, his wife might well see him as a great provider but little else. If a girl is spending all her free time and money on her looks, but can’t hold a conversation on a topic other than lipstick and the gym, and has little sexual restraint not many men are going to take her seriously. If a guy knows all the latest parties and is the star of every club but can’t hold down a job and neglects his health, women aren’t going to pick him when it comes to settling down. It is better to be reasonable in all areas than perfect on one and poor in others. With unbalanced people, there is an enormous gain for others to have you as one of several partners, whether parallel or serially, compared to being with just you. Thus, both the nice guy and the jerk lose out, as do the nice girl and the hussy. I have seen men be a good father figure while being career oriented. My ex boyfriend had a role model aside from his father that very much shaped him. He was a friend of the family, the business partner of his mother and did not have children of his own. His own father was a captain and away for several moths at a time.He worked 60 hours a week and I doubt he spent much time baking cookies with little boys but he did take my ex along to his work, when having lunch with a client, to go hunting, to the tailor, for dinner at home with his wife and generally involved him in the normal life of a grown man. He did not have much time to spend, but when he did, he showed a great example and was there if advise was needed. My ex really admired him because although he never even went to high school but educated himself and climber the whole ladder. He also had great skill at shooting and a very happy marriage. His wife really respected him for who he was. My mother is befriended to a couple that are like an aunt and uncle to me, their children are also my friends. The father travels a lot for work, but when he is in town, he spends a lot of time in his home office. Thus he is often there when it is time for a family meal or if his children are in need for some advice. He would tell stories about the places he saw on his business trips and take home some small things for his family that showed he had them in mind while away. He also likes to BBQ and on a typical saturday night in summer, invites his friends and kids to join. Not everyone every week, but on a regular basis. My favorite uncle is also a father figure to me. He works fulltime teaching math and really enjoys doing repairs and listening to music. Generally, we will be having a chat while he is working on some repair or he tells about the music he plays or has you taste a glass of wine or whiskey that he recommends. (Young adults, not little kids.) Or maybe we talk about life while going to the market, where he finds parts for his projects and I might buy fruit or fabric and then we have a coffee in town. I guess that the key is to be a good example for kids to look up to and to offer good advice when needed. Being reasonable available is important; rather than staying at the office late, to spend some time at home even if you are bringing some work home, take frequent short rather than few long business trips and to involve kids and young people into your own activities. Kids don’t need two mommies. People in general need to liberate themselves from the media.