# This is not a good thing, this is a bad and dangerous thing.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [August 25, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253 "2007-08-25T18:40:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/1 "2007-08-25T18:40:37Z")
**The reason it is so bad is that we are in the process of creating, maintaining, and protecting a culture of criminal enterprise within the United States Military… and that will come back to haunt us here on our shores far more insidiously than any Al Quaeda cell possibly could… 😮 😮 😮 🆒** [Iraq fraud whistleblowers vilified - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20430153/) "One after another, **the men and women who have stepped forward to report corruption in the massive effort to rebuild Iraq have been vilified, fired and demoted.** Or worse. For daring to report illegal arms sales, Navy veteran Donald Vance says he was imprisoned by the American military in a security compound outside Baghdad and subjected to harsh interrogation methods. There were times, huddled on the floor in solitary confinement with that head-banging music blaring dawn to dusk and interrogators yelling the same questions over and over, that Vance began to wish he had just kept his mouth shut. He had thought he was doing a good and noble thing when he started telling the FBI about the guns and the land mines and the rocket-launchers — all of them being sold for cash, no receipts necessary, he said. He told a federal agent the buyers were Iraqi insurgents, American soldiers, State Department workers, and Iraqi embassy and ministry employees. The seller, he claimed, was the Iraqi-owned company he worked for, Shield Group Security Co. “It was a Wal-Mart for guns,” he says. “It was all illegal and everyone knew it.” So Vance says he blew the whistle, supplying photos and documents and other intelligence to an FBI agent in his hometown of Chicago because he didn’t know whom to trust in Iraq. For his trouble, he says, he got 97 days in Camp Cropper, an American military prison outside Baghdad that once held [Saddam Hussein](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20430153/#), and he was classified a security detainee. Also held was colleague Nathan Ertel, who helped Vance gather evidence documenting the sales, according to a federal lawsuit both have filed in Chicago, alleging they were illegally imprisoned and subjected to physical and mental interrogation tactics “reserved for terrorists and so-called enemy combatants.” **No noble outcomes** Corruption has long plagued Iraq reconstruction. Hundreds of projects may never be finished, including repairs to the country’s oil pipelines and electricity system. Congress gave more than $30 billion to rebuild Iraq, and at least $8.8 billion of it has disappeared, according to a government reconstruction audit. Despite this staggering mess, there are no noble outcomes for those who have blown the whistle, according to a review of such cases by The Associated Press. “If you do it, you will be destroyed,” said William Weaver, professor of political science at the University of Texas-El Paso and senior advisor to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. “Reconstruction is so rife with corruption. Sometimes people ask me, ‘Should I do this?’ And my answer is no. If they’re married, they’ll lose their family. They will lose their jobs. They will lose everything,” Weaver said. They have been fired or demoted, shunned by colleagues, and denied government support in whistleblower lawsuits filed against contracting firms. “The only way we can find out what is going on is for someone to come forward and let us know,” said Beth Daley of the Project on Government Oversight, an independent, nonprofit group that investigates corruption. “But when they do, the weight of the government comes down on them. The message is, ’Don’t blow the whistle or we’ll make your life hell.’ “It’s heartbreaking,” Daley said. “There is an even greater need for whistleblowers now. But they are made into public martyrs. It’s a disgrace. Their lives get ruined.” ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 11:38am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/2 "2007-08-26T11:38:12Z")
Yesterday afternoon when I walked into the car rental office, W was giving some kind of speech about Iraq. I pointed to the large LCD screen and said loudly _ **“Arrest and imprison that man for war crimes.”** _ I’m not sure what I expected, but the result was not even one look of surprise, and apparently, the people who stay on the ground and rent autos to people who complain about the rigors of interstate and international travel don’t expect much from their customers. Saying what I did turned out to be one way to make a great impression on the staff. (A314 is another!) The agent who worked with me asked me if I would forgive W. Initially I misunderstood. I said that I thought Americans were soft, and yes, they’d wind up forgiving him. He persisted and asked if _I_ would forgive W. No, I said, I don’t think I personally could do that. _“So what makes you think others will forgive him?”_ Excellent question! It turns out that most of my dialogue on this topic has been internal. I’ve been arguing with myself, and with imaginary authors as I read or listen or watch. So I called down to two women at the other end of the counter and asked if they would forgive him. “No” they said and shook their heads in unison. I wasn’t satisfied; I still have this (assumption) hypothesis that Americans won’t follow through with a punishment on a president. So I asked them “You’d really like to see a US president in prison?” And the lead said in response: _ **“I don’t want to see him go to jail, I want to see him go straight to hell.”** _ That cleared things up a bit. And now I’m going to talk, not whisper, or joke, about this with people. I’m going to test my hypothesis about Americans being soft on Presidents. I’m going to talk about this with my kids, and co-workers, and with people I meet socially (but only before that second drink.) I’ll compliment people on their propaganda T-shirts; the one with W snorting a line and the caption “HYPOCRITE” is artful, I think. And I’ve established, tentatively, one of the prime qualifications I’ll be looking for in the person I vote for president in the next election: **the ability to say “I’m sorry” to the rest of the world and open a meaningful dialogue of repair.** Sorry for the rant, but a never-ending war, with lots of opportunities to enrich friends seems to me to be just the ticket for these boys. It’s a shame there is no form of malpractice insurance against the bad behavior of high government officials. And allowing the corruption to proceed baldly, to make the whistleblowers suffer instead … well, I suppose if you think the Constitution is “just a piece of paper”, that’s an expected outcome. PS: They are right, Cheney first. The other way around is a horrifying thought. ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/3 "2007-08-26T14:42:38Z")
For the first time in all of this, I am beginning to feel something new, not anger, not disgust, not confusion… all normal enough feelings… no, a new thing, something I rarely if ever felt… **dread** … a profound fear for my country, the future that future generations will live through… an all devouring monster is being hatched over there, the likes of which we have never known… ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/4 "2007-08-26T15:30:39Z")
I’ve gotten that sense, too. As if we are passing the “knee” of the curve, as if last chances are slipping away, … Falling, rolling downhill … there, that stump sticking out might hold us, might stop us from falling over the edge, but … it will be hard to hold on to … but there might not be anything better to grab closer to the precipice … ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/5 "2007-08-26T18:48:49Z")
Just finished reading the article in the New York Times magazine about the disconnect between to boots on the ground officer corps and the generals… everybody ought to read that to get an idea of where the senior military institutional culture is at… sobering to say the least… these guys seem like they are hellbent on preserving a crippling dysfunctional organization and will basically eliminate anyone who dares challenge their way of doing business… Petraeus apparantly is one of the very rare exceptions… anyone who rocks the boat to the slightest degree is ostracized, non-promoted, and either driven out or left to rot in the corner… their attitude towards breakdown, corruption, and so on is they don’t want to hear about it… we’re in some major trouble here… no way around it… ---
**Author:** ![tacitus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@tacitus](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tacitus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/6 "2007-08-26T18:54:47Z")
for example, from the article: “In February 2006, Yingling returned to Fort Sill. That April, six retired Army and Marine generals publicly criticized Rumsfeld, who was still the secretary of defense, for sending too few troops to Iraq. Many junior and field-grade officers reacted with puzzlement or disgust. Their common question: Where were these generals when they still wore the uniform? Why didn’t they speak up when their words might have counted? One general who had spoken up, Eric Shinseki, then the Army chief of staff, was publicly upbraided and ostracized by Rumsfeld; other active-duty generals got the message and stayed mum. That December, Yingling attended a Purple Heart ceremony for soldiers wounded in Iraq. “I was watching these soldiers wheeling into this room, or in some cases having to be wheeled in by their wives or mothers,” he recalled. “And I said to myself: ‘These soldiers were doing their jobs. The senior officers were not doing theirs. We’re not giving our soldiers the tools and training to succeed.’ I had to go public.” Soon after Yingling’s article appeared, Maj. Gen. Jeff Hammond, commander of the Fourth Infantry Division at Fort Hood, Tex., reportedly called a meeting of the roughly 200 captains on his base, all of whom had served in Iraq, for the purpose of putting this brazen lieutenant colonel in his place. According to The Wall Street Journal, he told his captains that Army generals are “dedicated, selfless servants.” Yingling had no business judging generals because he has “never worn the shoes of a general.” By implication, Hammond was warning his captains that they had no business judging generals, either. Yingling was stationed at Fort Hood at the time, preparing to take command of an artillery battalion. From the steps of his building, he could see the steps of General Hammond’s building. He said he sent the general a copy of his article before publication as a courtesy, and he never heard back; nor was he notified of the general’s meeting with his captains.” _This shit is diseased to the max._ ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 10:22am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/7 "2007-08-27T10:22:39Z")
Can anybody please explain what this means? [National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html) It sure was fucking with my head last night. 😠 ---
**Author:** ![Rbt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rbt/32/2066_2.png) [@Rbt](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Rbt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/8 "2007-08-28T01:31:55Z")
Some people went through the Veitman era. Some people think the US Executive and Legislative branches in power at that time should be tried for war crimes. Of course it never was declared a “war.” Neither was the “Police Action” in Korea. Some other people seemed to get awfully rich thanks to all this… Some people are starting to think the same way today. Both types of people. Anyone else notice that the term “Contractors” is just another way of saying “Mercinary?” ---
**Author:** ![Astrocloud](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/astrocloud/32/1961_2.png) [@Astrocloud](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Astrocloud)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/9 "2007-08-28T02:03:03Z")
This has been all over Fark today ([Drew Curtis’ FARK.com](http://www.fark.com)) The expenses from this war are putting our grandchildren in debt. I honestly believe that cetain interests via Saudi Arabia are supporting/supplying the “rebels” in Iraq with nothing more than a fiscal interest in keeping the war going. ---
**Author:** ![MarkL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/markl/32/825_2.png) [@MarkL](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/MarkL)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 8:19am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/10 "2007-08-28T08:19:43Z")
Financeers who lend money to both sides of an armed conflict are equally despised and patronised: greatly. The Cheney-Bush folks are throwing a war party; I’d guess that anyone who helps create “atmosphere” is welcome, Arab or not. ---
**Author:** ![mindset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@mindset](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/mindset)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 9:43am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/11 "2007-08-28T09:43:02Z")
> [@mindset](#): > > Can anybody please explain what this means? [National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html) > > It sure was fucking with my head last night. 😠 I hope nobody let this slip by their radars, because what I get from this is that in the event of “catastrophic proportions,” the executive branch will have the power to delegate over the legislative and judicial branches. There is a lot of eerie double-speak in this directive, and it has me speculating, perhaps reaching into the left field as to why this grant in continuity will literally place the executive at the forefront over the other branches. Centralized power is alarming for me atleast. ---
**Author:** ![Astrocloud](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/astrocloud/32/1961_2.png) [@Astrocloud](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Astrocloud)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/12 "2007-08-28T19:16:49Z")
> [@mindset](#): > > Can anybody please explain what this means? [National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html) > > It sure was fucking with my head last night. 😠 Whatever it is -a good portion of it is secret: > [@](#): > > This directive and the information contained herein shall be protected from unauthorized disclosure, provided that, except for Annex A, **the Annexes attached to this directive are classified** and shall be accorded appropriate handling, consistent with applicable Executive Orders It looks like it was revoked in 1998 but must’ve been re-established. ---
**Author:** ![Astrocloud](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/astrocloud/32/1961_2.png) [@Astrocloud](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Astrocloud)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/13 "2007-08-28T19:26:49Z")
> [@MarkL](#): > > Financeers who lend money to both sides of an armed conflict are equally despised and patronised: greatly. > > The Cheney-Bush folks are throwing a war party; I’d guess that anyone who helps create “atmosphere” is welcome, Arab or not. Some of these American “whistle blowers” were fired, detained and subjected to torture after they accused American companies of exactly that -giving or selling arms to the Iraqi resistance. As long as there is turmoil in Iraq -the war profiteers can continue looting both the American treasury and Iraqi oil. There have already been enough allegations of this. One of the biggest and most obvious players is [Halliburton](http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/). Of course, we all knew this. ---
**Author:** ![Rbt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/rbt/32/2066_2.png) [@Rbt](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Rbt)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/14 "2007-09-05T02:18:01Z")
At least someone realized it was better to call the action “Operation Iraqi Freedom” instead of “Operation Iraqi Liberation.” The press would have had a real field day with the initials. ---
**Author:** ![Pheraoh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/pheraoh/32/857_2.png) [@Pheraoh](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Pheraoh)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 7:38am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/this-is-not-a-good-thing-this-is-a-bad-and-dangerous-thing/5253/15 "2007-09-05T07:38:12Z")
[Halliburton Watch](http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/)