# What is up with this TFL / ' True Forced Loneliness ' Movement? Looks vs Personality. **URL:** \ **Category:** Lounge\ **Created:** [April 23, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006 "2011-04-23T02:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RADMAN513](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/radman513/32/364_2.png) [@RADMAN513](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/RADMAN513)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/41 "2011-04-26T04:33:34Z")
Oh boy, so many posts, so little time…oh well once more unto the breech dear friends. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: You have misquoted and misunderstood this particular Youtube video, Bill as inarticulate he can be, has never advocated violence. But if you going to keep treating your fellow human being like shit long enough, then inevitably someone is going to snap, it’s basic human psychology, it’s not rocket science. I have watched the above Youtube video several times, and in no shape or form, did Bill justify violence against anyone, all he was saying is people need to treat each other the way they want to be treated, and what is wrong with people treating one another with respect?? Here’s the thing, your group, based admittedly by what little I know about it doesn’t seem to complain about being picked on and bullied everyday, or children running around them in a circle calling them “ugly” or some variation. From what I;ve read and seen it’s simply about being rejected by the opposite sex, allegedly for your looks alone…period. That’s your platform…as to the agenda and manifesto that the movement is actually moving towards?, well I’m waiting to find that out. But to get back to point. The issue is about being rejected as a sexual partner, the consequence was a random act of violence, the commentary was “what do you expect?” and the moral was treat others the way you want to be treated. Well, that means the man that did the shooting wanted to be the recipient of a violent act. The women never shot him, I don’t even think A woman EVER in his life shot at him (I could be wrong I suppose) They just didn’t want to fuck him. So since we can plainly see that it’s not an act that was done, but rather an act that wasn’t done…that brought on the shooting, and Bills subsequent psychotic rant, I can only assume that women need to engage in intercourse with men regardless of how they FEEL about them. “Attraction is not a choice” to quote David D., but sex is and dammit women you should fuck an ugly guy > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: Bill is not asking for a pity fuck, you are putting words into his mouth. Where in the video did Bill say/or suggest that men should commit acts of violence if women refuse sex? The man was unsuccessful with women…that is the extent of the information given, based off of that Bill says “what do you expect”. This doesn’t outright state but very clearly implies that in Bills mind being rejected as a sexual partner is an act of cruelty in and of itself. It’s not, it may hurt (I know as well as anyone) but a woman choosing not to date me or have sex with me is hardly a premeditated act of malicious cruelty on her part. It’s called freedom of choice, it’s one of the great things about living in the United States of Nazi Germany. So here’s the lesson ladies, if a guy wants to sleep with you…just do it, denying him would be a mean spirited act of the most sadistic cruelty and he may retaliate by walking into an aerobics class with an Uzi. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: You have totally misunderstood the message Steve Hoca has tried to convey in the above Youtube video, which I have to say, is the probably the best video he has made. Steve Hoca is talking about the unfair shaming language directed at involuntary celibate men. What Steve is labeled (thus giving it identy and power) as “shaming language” is in fact what SANE people call helpful or at the very least well meaning advice. These guys are so far gone that they even reject encouragement and assistance. He labels “Getting in touch with yourself” as vague and undefinable…which is the point I addressed. How making helpful suggestions or well intended advice could be considered shaming is beyond me…actually it’s not. I understand, it’s considered shaming because it lays the burden of responsibility for ones state on the individual as opposed to the whole damn world. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: Let me make this real easy for you, true self confidence (in any aspect of your life), comes from three words, they are: PREVIOUS PERFORMANCE ACCOMPLISHMENT, which means if you know you have done it before successfully, then you know you can do it again,eg. why is Tiger Woods a confident golfer?, simple he wins golf tournaments. …how did he win the first tournament? See, I agree that a resume of prior accomplishments is helpful for confidence. But it cannot be the be all end all of confidence as you define it to be. If it was, all it would take would be one rejection, one defeat, one last place finish etc to totally destroy that confidence and then create a snowball effect that ends a career. Tom Brady has lost games, but does he carry himself as a winner or loser? His TEMPORARY confidence may be shaken for a short period by a defeat but his core confidence is solid because he knows he’s trained and practiced and has the skills to deliver and achieve victory. He knows full well that he will lose games in the future but that doesn’t effect his performance or feelings of self worth. As a PUA, I know I will get rejected by women, and yeah some may even reject me based solely on my looks (I never said it never happens) I’m not exactly movie star quality myself. But I don’t think about the rejections, I don’t even attach myself to outcomes. I have fun meeting women and learned to enjoy getting to know them. My attractive personality traits and lifestyle come across often enough that I enjoy more successes than failures. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: No, this is where Rad is being an insensitive and cruel arsehole. The video above is an honest commentary about how roughly 10% of men (a conservative estimate, the figure is probably higher), will be involuntary celibate, often through no fault of their own. Calling men “evolutionary defective”, and claiming that they have “faulty genes” is just pathetic PUA shaming language, and falsely suggests that women always get it right when it comes to choosing their sexual partners. OK now I admit THAT was shaming language, but I never stated nor implied that women always get it right. You’re avoiding the nature of what I was responding to. Put up a picture of a woman…hundreds (if not more) men respond. Put up a picture of a man…only a few women respond…boo hoo. That’s the nature of the species there buddy. Women simply aren’t as aggressive as men. I know he made the point about x number of men living celibate and whatnot but the above comparison (which is paraphrased admittedly) tells me that his gripe is that women won’t make the first move for him. THAT shows a lack of aggression (an essential survival trait for most species) and indicates a male, that wants the female to take the lead and be the man he can’t be. So yeah, genetically defective. As much as a tiger that starves to death because it feels that it’s unfair that it’s prey won’t just come lay down in front of it. > [@](#): > > Well answer me this **Mr “Know it all”,** if women are so “brilliant” at picking the best genes, then why is the divorce rate so high (50% in the USA, and many other western nations), And can you please explain why so many women end up in abusive/dysfunctional relationships with bad boys,cheaters and thugs?? Well at least you got the suff in bold right. I never said women are good at picking genes. I never said he was defective because women reject him based on his looks, I said he was genetically defective because he doesn’t have enough testosterone flowing through his damn veins to just accept that HE is supposed to be the aggressor and not the women, and to appreciate the damn difference. His **Y** is too much like \*y[/y]. The most common cause for divorce is cited as being financial. With the economy going down the toilet I imagine it will only get worse as times are tough enough that even the handsome people are finding it hard to make ends meet. as for why women wind up with certain kinds of bad men. Read the book sperm wars. If you want to get into a nice guy vs bad boy debate, I imagine we’d wind up on the same side in many issues. But those qualities are personality based and not cosmetic. Badboys, cheaters and thugs as you describe tend to be strong, aggressive and dominating. What we phero enthusiasts would refer to as None signature males. Their posture and mannerism communicates healthy genes and a possibiltity to be a solid protector. However the nice guy, may not be strong enough to father healthy children or more importantly children that will grow up ambitious and success oriented, but he’s good for making sure the rent is paid in a timely manner. I’ve seen some pretty gorgeous women with some seriously fucked up looking guys, it ain’t dreamboat looks that landed the woman. It was a solid masculine vibe and whole lotta swagger. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: Whilst I agree with some of the views expressed by members of the TFL group, I disagree with their sometimes overly conspiratorial view on the world, and I don’t believe “The New World Order” (that’s assuming this conspiracy theory is real???) is responsible for the PUA industry/community. However, the fact that there is a PUA industry, is an admission that there is something seriously wrong/or dysfunctional with the dating scene. Dude, go to a Borders or Barnes and Noble. it goes both ways. In fact I’d wager that there have been more magazine articles in womens magazines on how to look prettier, act sexier and how to get and keep a man than has ever been written for the opposite. I don’t see anything dysfuntional at all about there being a medium based on teaching people how to be more attractive to the opposite sex. It’s not like they teach a class on it in highschool. Attraction is not a choice, and it really isn’t. Imagine your favorite food, now whether or not you actually eat it can be a choice, but how you feel when you smell it cooking, or see it on the plate is totally subconscious and involuntary. Because of this, some people need to be taught what attracts the opposite sex and why. I don’t usually suggest that men take advice from women (Tish being an amazing exception) because most women don’t base their advice on what actually works with them or what they actually find attractive, but what they THINK they SHOULD find attractive. Nice guy, sense of humor, romantic etc. Giving that advice usually just serves their own self perception of believing they’re so evolved and enlightened that they could never get the screaming thigh sweats for an arrogant jerk. Anyway, so guys turn to advice from the best source, if you want to be successful with women, you learn from somebody that already is. > [@](#): > > And on the topic of violence against women (which is totally wrong, and should be stamped out), why is it so many women are attracted to these bad boy/thug types who habitually mistreat women, yet these women keep going back to them?? According to dept of justice statistics 49% of domestic violence cases are of women that abuse their male spouses. Is all likelihood it’s higher as social stigma ensures fewer reports. So to be honest, almost as many men get beat by wives (either because the wife truly is bigger and stronger, or because upbringing forces him to simply endure it rather than defend himself) Now, as for why women keep going back to men that mistreat them? I promis you it’s not because they’re so damn good looking that a little Ike Turner treatment is ok so I don’t know how this supports your stance. But usually these women tend to have grown up in homes that were abusive environments during the formative years of childhood. It leaves an imprint so profound that even though consciously she knows it’s wrong, and fears/hates the pain and injury…she keeps coming back because on a subconscious level, she feels at home there. In fact some women have such a deep seeded need for this to create a sense of stability that if the man isn’t abusive she will push at him and try to anger him until he does. These are a highly disfunctional minority of relationships however and stand as an exception and not near enough to the rule to support your stance about visual attractiveness. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: So you agree that looks is what counts, then why do you contradict yourself when you claim PUA works, how can PUA help an ugly man become attractive? If you are going to get all scientific about what women find attractive in men, then you will know women want to pass on the best possible genes on to any potential offspring they may have, and that’s why women chase after the best looking men. No…I say that looks and appearance count for more than some would like to believe but it is far from being the be all end all of sexual/romantic attraction. My point about social darwinism is that the attraction that looks do count for is biological and instinctual, not social. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: Whilst I agree men should always strive to improve themselves in order to be more attractive to women, PUA theory is absolutely useless to the average/ugly male, because it fails to teach men that women mainly care about looks (sorry it’s a FACT), and instead it teaches men nonsense like “pea cocking”, the “neg’”, “having game”, and other assorted new age quackery/pop positivity. Many men have busted their arses trying to meet women, only to be met by a barrage of instant rejection. There is nothing wrong with a man changing himself for the better, however he should not change just to please a woman. REAL men don’t change for anyone. Real men also don’t adopt a victim mentality. Don’t change for A woman…on that I agree, change to be more attractive to women in general, well that’s just part of being a guy. As a man I am a sexual being and I present myself to the world as such. Some women respond positively, some negatively, some not at all, on the whole the PUA bullshit has worked for me. And has worked for several friends of mine. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: No, PUA shit does not work, and I can easily prove why it doesn’t work. I know of a friend of mine who paid $3,000.00 USD to some PUA snake oil salesmen, and neither he, or any of his former PUA classmates experienced any kind of success with women, in spite of the fact they learned and practiced PUA theory until they went blue in the face. Getting into shape, dressing well is basic common sense, and you don’t need to to pay some PUA con man to tell you that. Well lesse. Myself My previously mentioned friend with the weight problem (on top of a receding hairline and insecurity about having one testicle) Another friend who’s left side of the face is one big scar from steam burns A former coworker that looks like the “PC Guy” from the Macintosh commercials. My bro…course he shouldn’t count cause he’s actually a damn good lookin kid already so no points there. Oh a skinny dude (friend of a friend) with some pretty bad acne scarring. A dude I trained in martial arts with that has a somewhat mishapen face from having several parts of it broken over the years in fights. And I’d say a little over a dozen other guys that you might consider 5-6 on a 1-10 scale at best. All but two have had awesome success using a variety of PUA tactics and theories…I’d say about half have dated women considerably “out of their league” in the looks dept. And before it gets brought up. This is not something I do professionally. I don’t charge these guys for coaching, I have no books, video or other products that I sell, hell I don’t even own an affiliate site to get a commission for endorsing any particular method so when I say it works it’s an opinion based on both personal and second hand experience and is completely unsolicited. …damn, that took more time than I wanted to spend. I’m gonna finish on this note. It’s pretty obvious you’re so set in your belief system that nothing anyone here says will change your mind, you’re not here to learn or consider a different opinion. And if you really think about it, you don’t have much of a chance of changing the minds or opinions of anyone here. I have stated my case and I will post no further as doing so only increases the groups relevancy on searches and I don’t like the idea of giving Bill any more of an audience than he already has…but I leave you with this bit of advice. If Bill ever offers you some Kool Aid…don’t fucking drink it. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Yoda](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/master_yoda/32/888_2.png) [@Master\_Yoda](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Master_Yoda)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/42 "2011-04-26T04:44:27Z")
> [@data4](#): > > Rigged by whom, praytell? The Dating Faeries? The dating game is rigged in favour of women by society, and I qualify the reasons why: 1. Internet dating - Contrary to what the dating sites tell you, men out number women by huge ratios, more than 5:1, and as such women have pick their pick on steriods. Many men who join internet dating sites, soon cancel their memberships and for good reason. I have read of way too many horror stories where men send off hundreds of messages to women, only to have those messages rejected/or deleted. Believe me getting tons of rejections from women does not do your self confidence/self esteem any favours. 2. Men carry most of the emotional/financial burden of dating, in the sense that men have to make the first move, thus placing their egos on the line each time they ask a woman for a date . And contrary to feminist propaganda, men are still expected to pay for everything. And it’s much easier for a woman to get into a relationship than it is for a man, because at the end of the day, women are the gatekeepers of relationships and sex. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Yoda](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/master_yoda/32/888_2.png) [@Master\_Yoda](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Master_Yoda)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/43 "2011-04-26T06:39:26Z")
> [@RADMAN513](#): > > Oh boy, so many posts, so little time…oh well once more unto the breech dear friends. > > Here’s the thing, your group, based admittedly by what little I know about it doesn’t seem to complain about being picked on and bullied everyday, or children running around them in a circle calling them “ugly” or some variation. From what I;ve read and seen it’s simply about being rejected by the opposite sex, allegedly for your looks alone…period. That’s your platform…as to the agenda and manifesto that the movement is actually moving towards?, well I’m waiting to find that out. Master Yoda responds: I am not part of the TFL group, and I don’t agree with all their views, but they do provide support, comfort and understanding for those men who find themselves challenged by dating, through no fault of their own. Women do reject men because of their looks, but how would you know?, assuming that is you in that avatar, women would consider you handsome, so how can you as a good looking guy understand what an ugly/average looking has to endure?? You don’t, so stop shaming men like me who lost out in the genetics lottery. I have no control on how women react to me, and I cannot force a woman to like me - GET IT??? > [@](#): > > But to get back to point. The issue is about being rejected as a sexual partner, the consequence was a random act of violence, the commentary was “what do you expect?” and the moral was treat others the way you want to be treated. > Well, that means the man that did the shooting wanted to be the recipient of a violent act. The women never shot him, I don’t even think A woman EVER in his life shot at him (I could be wrong I suppose) They just didn’t want to fuck him. > So since we can plainly see that it’s not an act that was done, but rather an act that wasn’t done…that brought on the shooting, and Bills subsequent psychotic rant, I can only assume that women need to engage in intercourse with men regardless of how they FEEL about them. “Attraction is not a choice” to quote David D., but sex is and dammit women you should fuck an ugly guy Master Yoda responds: You are referring to George Sodini, and the shooting that occurred back in August 2009?. Of course there is no justification for what George Sodini did, if he was that depressed about his lack of success with women, then he should have only taken his own life, and not taken those 3 innocent women with him. Or alternatively, why didn’t George Sodini just go and see a hooker and get laid, that’s what I do, but then again prostitution is legal here in Australia. Women do not owe men sex/or relationships, any more than men owe women do, and Bill was not justifying what George Sodini did, and why attack Bill?, he is only the messenger, he was not responsible for what George Sodini did. > [@](#): > > The man was unsuccessful with women…that is the extent of the information given, based off of that Bill says “what do you expect”. This doesn’t outright state but very clearly implies that in Bills mind being rejected as a sexual partner is an act of cruelty in and of itself. It’s not, it may hurt (I know as well as anyone) but a woman choosing not to date me or have sex with me is hardly a premeditated act of malicious cruelty on her part. It’s called freedom of choice, it’s one of the great things about living in the United States of Nazi Germany. Master Yoda responds: I totally respect a woman’s right to date/fuck/marry etc to the men of their choice, and I agree a woman rejecting a man is not an act of cruelty, rather an expression in her freedom of choice. I have copped more rejections from women than you have hot dinners, and I respect a woman’s right to exercise that choice, but at the same time that does not give women a licence to reject men cruelly for no good reason.If you can’t get laid, just pay for a hooker (if it’s legal where you are). > [@](#): > > So here’s the lesson ladies, if a guy wants to sleep with you…just do it, denying him would be a mean spirited act of the most sadistic cruelty and he may retaliate by walking into an aerobics class with an Uzi. Master Yoda: Once again you are putting words into the mouth of Bill, and no one is suggesting that women should sleep with any man just to prevent another George Sodini, you are being silly. > [@](#): > > What Steve is labeled (thus giving it identy and power) as “shaming language” is in fact what SANE people call helpful or at the very least well meaning advice. These guys are so far gone that they even reject encouragement and assistance. > He labels “Getting in touch with yourself” as vague and undefinable…which is the point I addressed. > How making helpful suggestions or well intended advice could be considered shaming is beyond me…actually it’s not. I understand, it’s considered shaming because it lays the burden of responsibility for ones state on the individual as opposed to the whole damn world. Master Yoda responds: There is a wrong and right way to offer/give constructive advice to people, and shaming them, and saying things like they have “defective genes” is not helpful and will only make them defensive. Don’t you think many involuntary celibate men have taken all the dating advice eg. PUA, going to the gym etc, and they still got nowhere. I am not being defeatist, I am just being realistic, and Steve Hoca is 100% correct. > [@](#): > > …how did he win the first tournament? Master Yoda responds: Simple, Tiger Wood’s natural golfing ability, his hours of training/practice, and of course a little luck. > [@](#): > > See, I agree that a resume of prior accomplishments is helpful for confidence. But it cannot be the be all end all of confidence as you define it to be. If it was, all it would take would be one rejection, one defeat, one last place finish etc to totally destroy that confidence and then create a snowball effect that ends a career. Tom Brady has lost games, but does he carry himself as a winner or loser? His TEMPORARY confidence may be shaken for a short period by a defeat but his core confidence is solid because he knows he’s trained and practiced and has the skills to deliver and achieve victory. He knows full well that he will lose games in the future but that doesn’t effect his performance or feelings of self worth. As a PUA, I know I will get rejected by women, and yeah some may even reject me based solely on my looks (I never said it never happens) I’m not exactly movie star quality myself. But I don’t think about the rejections, I don’t even attach myself to outcomes. I have fun meeting women and learned to enjoy getting to know them. My attractive personality traits and lifestyle come across often enough that I enjoy more successes than failures. Master Yoda responds: I acknowledge that even successful people can sometimes fail eg. Henry Ford went bankrupt before the Ford motor company took off, and even Donald Trump went broke back in the early 90’s. All men get rejected by women at some point in their lives, but when it happens all the time your self confidence suffers. With regards to yourself 99.99% of your success with women can be attributed to your looks (not PUA BS), and to deny it is foolish. > [@](#): > > OK now I admit THAT was shaming language, but I never stated nor implied that women always get it right. You’re avoiding the nature of what I was responding to. > Put up a picture of a woman…hundreds (if not more) men respond. > Put up a picture of a man…only a few women respond…boo hoo. Master Yoda responds: Well at least in the paragraph above you have acknowledged that internet dating is a sausage fest where men outnumber women by huge ratios, but the boo hoo comment was uncalled for. > [@](#): > > That’s the nature of the species there buddy. Women simply aren’t as aggressive as men. I know he made the point about x number of men living celibate and whatnot but the above comparison (which is paraphrased admittedly) tells me that his gripe is that women won’t make the first move for him. THAT shows a lack of aggression (an essential survival trait for most species) and indicates a male, that wants the female to take the lead and be the man he can’t be. So yeah, genetically defective. As much as a tiger that starves to death because it feels that it’s unfair that it’s prey won’t just come lay down in front of it. Master Yoda responds: What you have stated above sounds great in theory, but then why are so many modern women attracted to feminised men eg. Justin Bieber, and there is nothing masculine about him. And why do women prefer men with out body hair, and for their men to be more effeminate? With regards to the animal kingdom, sure there are some similarities, but humans are lot more complicated than animals. > [@](#): > > Well at least you got the suff in bold right. > I never said women are good at picking genes. I never said he was defective because women reject him based on his looks, I said he was genetically defective because he doesn’t have enough testosterone flowing through his damn veins to just accept that HE is supposed to be the aggressor and not the women, and to appreciate the damn difference. His **Y** is too much like \*y[/y]. Master Yoda responds: What exactly are you trying to say here?, unless you are a good looking guy who women want, you can’t be the aggressor because women will just view you as an ugly creep,stalker, rapist etc, you PUAs are so out of touch with what goes on in the real world of dating. > [@](#): > > The most common cause for divorce is cited as being financial. With the economy going down the toilet I imagine it will only get worse as times are tough enough that even the handsome people are finding it hard to make ends meet. Master Yoda responds: Marriages fail for all kinds of reasons eg. financial, infidelity, physical abuse etc, but some women (not all of them), use divorce to collect “cash and prizes”, when they take their ex-husbands to the cleaners, and it does happen. > [@](#): > > as for why women wind up with certain kinds of bad men. Read the book sperm wars. If you want to get into a nice guy vs bad boy debate, I imagine we’d wind up on the same side in many issues. But those qualities are personality based and not cosmetic. Badboys, cheaters and thugs as you describe tend to be strong, aggressive and dominating. What we phero enthusiasts would refer to as None signature males. Their posture and mannerism communicates healthy genes and a possibiltity to be a solid protector. However the nice guy, may not be strong enough to father healthy children or more importantly children that will grow up ambitious and success oriented, but he’s good for making sure the rent is paid in a timely manner. > I’ve seen some pretty gorgeous women with some seriously fucked up looking guys, it ain’t dreamboat looks that landed the woman. It was a solid masculine vibe and whole lotta swagger. Master Yoda responds: I too have seen some ugly men with gorgeous women, but only because the guy was rich, or he was just plain lucky.However this is the exception not the rule. > [@](#): > > Dude, go to a Borders or Barnes and Noble. it goes both ways. In fact I’d wager that there have been more magazine articles in womens magazines on how to look prettier, act sexier and how to get and keep a man than has ever been written for the opposite. Master Yoda responds: I don’t understand why a woman would need to refer to a self help book/magazine on how to keep a man, when in reality it is much easier for a woman to enter a new relationship than it is for a man. > [@](#): > > I don’t see anything dysfuntional at all about there being a medium based on teaching people how to be more attractive to the opposite sex. It’s not like they teach a class on it in highschool. > Attraction is not a choice, and it really isn’t. Imagine your favorite food, now whether or not you actually eat it can be a choice, but how you feel when you smell it cooking, or see it on the plate is totally subconscious and involuntary. > Because of this, some people need to be taught what attracts the opposite sex and why. Master Yoda responds: Up until the last 15 years or so, the PUA industry virtually did not exist, yeah there was the occasional self help book for men, but not the full blown PUA industry there is today. Our fathers generation did not need PUA to meet their wives, why now? > [@](#): > > I don’t usually suggest that men take advice from women (Tish being an amazing exception) because most women don’t base their advice on what actually works with them or what they actually find attractive, but what they THINK they SHOULD find attractive. Nice guy, sense of humor, romantic etc. Giving that advice usually just serves their own self perception of believing they’re so evolved and enlightened that they could never get the screaming thigh sweats for an arrogant jerk. > Anyway, so guys turn to advice from the best source, if you want to be successful with women, you learn from somebody that already is. Master Yoda responds: I agree female dating advice is rubbish, and should be ignored because it doesn’t work. However, I reiterate how can a good looking guy who is a born natural with women going to teach an ugly guy how to be good with women?? It’s like a 7ft guard in the NBA trying to teach a 3ft midget how to slam dunk. > [@](#): > > According to dept of justice statistics 49% of domestic violence cases are of women that abuse their male spouses. Is all likelihood it’s higher as social stigma ensures fewer reports. So to be honest, almost as many men get beat by wives (either because the wife truly is bigger and stronger, or because upbringing forces him to simply endure it rather than defend himself) Master Yoda responds: Since I am not an expert on domestic violence and nor do I live in the USA, it is hard for me to comment on this. > [@](#): > > Now, as for why women keep going back to men that mistreat them? I promis you it’s not because they’re so damn good looking that a little Ike Turner treatment is ok so I don’t know how this supports your stance. But usually these women tend to have grown up in homes that were abusive environments during the formative years of childhood. It leaves an imprint so profound that even though consciously she knows it’s wrong, and fears/hates the pain and injury…she keeps coming back because on a subconscious level, she feels at home there. In fact some women have such a deep seeded need for this to create a sense of stability that if the man isn’t abusive she will push at him and try to anger him until he does. These are a highly disfunctional minority of relationships however and stand as an exception and not near enough to the rule to support your stance about visual attractiveness. Master Yoda responds: Once again I can’t comment on domestic violence, and why women are attracted to these idiots, but I stand on my view that visual attractiveness is a big deal when it comes to attracting women, I am sorry but it is. > [@](#): > > No…I say that looks and appearance count for more than some would like to believe but it is far from being the be all end all of sexual/romantic attraction. > My point about social darwinism is that the attraction that looks do count for is biological and instinctual, not social. Master Yoda responds:Well at least you have acknowledged here the importance of looks. > [@](#): > > Real men also don’t adopt a victim mentality. > Don’t change for A woman…on that I agree, change to be more attractive to women in general, well that’s just part of being a guy. As a man I am a sexual being and I present myself to the world as such. Some women respond positively, some negatively, some not at all, on the whole the PUA bullshit has worked for me. And has worked for several friends of mine. Master Yoda responds: Many involuntarily celibate men are victims, yet they are still REAL MEN, what about those guys that have tried their guts out to meet women, have practiced all the advice given to them, yet they still struck out?? Aren’t these men victims of sheer bad luck? PUA only works if you got the looks to pull it off, if you are ugly/average looking PUA is virtually useless. > [@](#): > > Well lesse. > Myself > My previously mentioned friend with the weight problem (on top of a receding hairline and insecurity about having one testicle) > Another friend who’s left side of the face is one big scar from steam burns > A former coworker that looks like the “PC Guy” from the Macintosh commercials. > My bro…course he shouldn’t count cause he’s actually a damn good lookin kid already so no points there. > Oh a skinny dude (friend of a friend) with some pretty bad acne scarring. > A dude I trained in martial arts with that has a somewhat mishapen face from having several parts of it broken over the years in fights. > And I’d say a little over a dozen other guys that you might consider 5-6 on a 1-10 scale at best. All but two have had awesome success using a variety of PUA tactics and theories…I’d say about half have dated women considerably “out of their league” in the looks dept. > > And before it gets brought up. This is not something I do professionally. I don’t charge these guys for coaching, I have no books, video or other products that I sell, hell I don’t even own an affiliate site to get a commission for endorsing any particular method so when I say it works it’s an opinion based on both personal and second hand experience and is completely unsolicited. Master Yoda responds: I find it very hard to believe average to below average looking guys have any real success with PUA crap, based on what I see goes on in real world of dating. > [@](#): > > …damn, that took more time than I wanted to spend. > I’m gonna finish on this note. It’s pretty obvious you’re so set in your belief system that nothing anyone here says will change your mind, you’re not here to learn or consider a different opinion. And if you really think about it, you don’t have much of a chance of changing the minds or opinions of anyone here. > I have stated my case and I will post no further as doing so only increases the groups relevancy on searches and I don’t like the idea of giving Bill any more of an audience than he already has…but I leave you with this bit of advice. > > If Bill ever offers you some Kool Aid…don’t fucking drink it. Master Yoda responds: I never came here for dating advice,but to defend the community of involuntarily celibate men (and that includes me), who get shamed 24/7 for something that is not their fault. I have tried PUA, and it’s a complete load of horseshit, because when push comes to shove women will almost always go for the best looking men. However I am trying to improve myself by getting into shape, and over the last 6 months I have lost close to 20kg (45 lbs), and my BMI has dropped from 32 to 18.5%. I will finish off by saying that I did not choose to be alone/involuntarily celibate, but I am not blaming anyone, I simply was dealt a bad hand in life with regards to women and dating. ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/44 "2011-04-26T06:44:41Z")
I sat here for a little while and had a couple of paragraphs written up as a retort to the response to my last post, but decided to junk them. The simple fact is this guy and others like him want to be women. They want to arrive on scene and have women approach them. That’s not how it is. That’s never been how it is, unless you’re queuing up for a Sadie Hawkins dance. Furthermore, his netiquette is atrocious. As large fonts are indicative of shouting, he comes across as a little man screaming his ass off with nothing substantive to say. I’ve decided rather to get sucked into his negativity and continue arguing against his points, I’m going to add him to my ignore list. I suggest others do the same. Seriously, he’s harshing the buzz around here. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Yoda](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/master_yoda/32/888_2.png) [@Master\_Yoda](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Master_Yoda)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/45 "2011-04-26T07:07:22Z")
> [@data4](#): > > I sat here for a little while and had a couple of paragraphs written up as a retort to the response to my last post, but decided to junk them. > > The simple fact is this guy and others like him want to be women. They want to arrive on scene and have women approach them. That’s not how it is. That’s never been how it is, unless you’re queuing up for a Sadie Hawkins dance. > > Furthermore, his netiquette is atrocious. As large fonts are indicative of shouting, he comes across as a little man screaming his ass off with nothing substantive to say. I’ve decided rather to get sucked into his negativity and continue arguing against his points, I’m going to add him to my ignore list. I suggest others do the same. > > Seriously, he’s harshing the buzz around here. This will be my last post here, because I can’t stand condescending, braindead idiots like you, who make false statements about me, because you don’t even know me, and nor have you met me. If you can’t read my posts, just because they are in large font, then you need to consult an optometrist, because I can read them just fine. You don’t like what I write, because it’s the truth, and like that famous Jack Nicholson line in a few good men, “you can’t handle the truth”. I have approached lots of women, and they rejected me because of my race, looks, not because of “confidence”,“lack of game” etc. And before I get banned from this pathetic forum, I have one last thing to say to you and your brainwashed PUA disciples: GO AND LOVE YOURSELF!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/46 "2011-04-26T07:24:24Z")
> [@Master\_Yoda](#): > > _ **GO AND LOVE YOURSELF!!!** _ _Keep heading down the narrow path you’re on Yoda and that’s exactly what you’ll be doing for eternity. You’ll have no choice but to take your own advice_.\*\* 😉 Bella ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/47 "2011-04-26T07:26:41Z")
> [@Bella](#): > > _Keep heading down the narrow path you’re on Yoda and that’s exactly what you’ll be doing for eternity. You’ll have no choice but to take your own advice_.\*\* 😉 > > Bella Wow, that was his response to me? Well, I guess I was right then. 😃 You go, Bella! ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/48 "2011-04-26T07:28:27Z")
To you? You’re kidding me, right? No, Jon. You \> I love. Bella ---
**Author:** ![data4](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/data4/32/272_2.png) [@data4](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/data4)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/49 "2011-04-26T07:29:06Z")
> [@Bella](#): > > To you? You’re kidding me, right? > > No, Jon. You \> I love. > > Bella Sorry, I edited my post for clarity. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/50 "2011-04-26T07:39:46Z")
Thanks, Jon. For a minute there, I wasn’t sure what to think, lol. Seriously, I think I should just do a couple of shots before logging on here. Some of the crap I’ve read on these boards over the last few days would drive anyone to drink. I also think we need a bigger net. 🙄 Bella ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/51 "2011-04-26T11:38:16Z")
Sorry Jon I dont give up on people that easily either that or I am a glutton for punishment LOL . > [@](#): > > This will be my last post here, because I can’t stand condescending, braindead idiots like you, who make false statements about me, because you don’t even know me, and nor have you met me. Excuse me but you have been nothing but closed and condescending since you got here. Whats worse is you walked into our “house” to behave this way. You dont expect that we will defend ourselves as well ? Dont expect others to do what you cant do yourself. You are totally unwilling to consider the possibility of anything any of us are trying to tell you only because you would have to take the responsibility for your life then. Sure I may be pretty to some but that doesnt mean I dont know what I am talking about, and the same go’s for Rad. There are many ways to reach a goal in life including relationship goals. You dont care for PUA tactics thats fine you dont have to use them. They still work for many people. You dont care for pheromones thats fine as well, they work for many people but you don’t have to use them. There is nothing wrong with you if these methods didnt work for you. But if you just sit there and accept that the your alone because of something someone else thinks, did or said then you have sealed your own fate. Yes your right yoda. You have become what you believe you are. What you cant see is that you made the choice. No one else. Sure there are some girls who will reject you on looks alone. That can be said for men who reject women on looks alone all the time as well. But thats all you see because that is all you choose to see. Open you eyes and look. There are men without money who are not visually attractive who are not alone all over the world. If what you are saying is truth then how did they get women ? It is only the truth to you because you chose to see it as the **whole truth** and in doing so again I will say you have sealed your fate. What everyone else here is trying to tell you is … You have another choice. There is always more then one. One choice will lead you to loneliness and one will lead you to possibility. I know its scary to step on the path of possibility. People can reject you on that path and it can hurt but nothing in the world hurts more then rejecting yourself and that is the choice your making. You have disguised that rejection of yourself as acceptance to make it hurt less but it is what it is no matter if you hide it under acceptance or like those men in that club hide it under blame. Its not easy to hide things from me. That sucks I know but the cool thing is that there is always another choice. Dont try to change your way of thinking for women or for anyone else. Do it for you. Open yourself to possibility. In your last post directed at me you stated you thought yourself to be a 1 and then lost some weight and are now a 4. That’s great. Go back and look at post number 8 that I wrote. You may not believe it but its true. Open yourself to the possibility. Tools like pheromones, PUA, body language etc etc are just tools. Every tool wont fit every individual. PUA is not your cup of tea thats fine. Find another tool. Just keep in mind that just because it didnt work or you or your friend doesn’t mean its not working for others. It just means it doesn’t fit your personality or needs right now. We all have used tools in life to make our lives easier or better. There is no shame in that its what separates us from other mammals. > [@Yoda](#): > > I have no control on how women react to me, and I cannot force a woman to like me - GET IT??? Yes but you have control over what you think about you. That’s what we are telling you. No one likes a person who doesn’t like themselves first. You have control of that and that control gives you more control on how the world views you. It wont make you a 10 of course but its that quality score I was talking about. Think about it. Whats the worst that can happen. You learn to like yourself and are still alone but more happy or you learn to like yourself and end up increasing your quality score to a 5 or 6 and possibly finding women who are interested. Its a win win situation. Dont tell me you like yourself either. After all the posts I read these are not words of a man who likes himself but a man who has given up on himself and the world around him. There is nothing genetically wrong with you or any celibate man. I am not calling you or celibate men Hitler. I am not belittling your feelings. I know you have been hurt. I am an empath but I dont have to be one to see that. I am not going to guarantee you will never be hurt or rejected again if you take on a different attitude but I will guarantee that if your attitude doesn’t change all you will feel is what you feel now. Hurt, alone, frustrated and afraid. All these feelings tied up tight with the pretty little bow of acceptance. > [@Yoda](#): > > What you have stated above sounds great in theory, but then why are so many modern women attracted to feminised men eg. Justin Bieber, and there is nothing masculine about him. And why do women prefer men with out body hair, and for their men to be more effeminate? With regards to the animal kingdom, sure there are some similarities, but humans are lot more complicated than animals. How old are you ? If your under 20 t0 25 then you know what… yes your world is filled with superficial men and women right now. Its from a lack of maturity that this age group thinks this way. Then you grow up and things change. Perceptions change, your preferences change. You know more. When I was 20 I will admit that good looking men interested me more then men who were not as good looking but they usually didnt hold my interest very long. Funny thing though is that looks are perceptions. I think Johnny Depp is hot as hell but Brad Pitt doesn’t appeal to me at all in fact I think he is kinda ugly. I wouldn’t look twice at him. My best friend likes bald men and I like long hair. So even if what your saying is true since everyone’s perception of handsome or beautiful is different then every single women is not going to think your ugly. Women dont think Justin Bieber is hot. Little girls think he is hot. Sure he is a cute kid, a little on the girly side if you ask me but he is young still. I am sure he is a nice boy though. I like body hair not covering every inch of the body and long enough to braid though. I think hairless men are just weird looking but thats just my opinion. Course I wouldn’t disqualify a guy because he has no hair or to much hair. Plus hair can be removed or replaced its just a thing. Some women may disqualify a guy on that but not all of them. Yes humans are more complicated but only because we make things complicated. If you haven’t met a women who doesn’t qualify you on more then how you look that doesn’t mean we are not out there. It just means you haven’t found them yet. Maybe your not looking in the right places. > [@Rad](#): > > I don’t usually suggest that men take advice from women (Tish being an amazing exception) because most women don’t base their advice on what actually works with them or what they actually find attractive, but what they THINK they SHOULD find attractive. Hey 😮 your lucky you added that exception. I was ready to hunt you down and spank you. > [@](#): > > Master Yoda responds: I agree female dating advice is rubbish, and should be ignored because it doesn’t work. Hey 😮 that go’s for you to Mr Yoda. Your imagined ugly wont save you from me. I am not above spanking you both. > [@Yoda](#): > > All men get rejected by women at some point in their lives, but when it happens all the time your self confidence suffers. Can you walk ? Do you know on average a baby will fall on their ass 10,000 times before they take a successful step. Why dont they ever lose confidence and stop trying after falling all those times ? Because even as babies they know that if everyone else is doing it so can they. They just didnt figure it out yet. Its a task that needs to be learned. Now if I pushed that baby on its butt every time it tried eventually they would stop trying but that doesn’t mean they couldnt walk if they tried and are doomed to sitting on their ass for the rest of their lives. On the other hand when mom and dad cheer you on and the babies uses the tools around them like moms hand or the end table to learn to walk that number of butt falls can come down dramatically. Somewhere along the line someone taught you to not believe in yourself. Taught you that your ugly. Taught you you have no choice but to sit like a baby thats been knocked down one to many times. Its true society can do that to a person if you let it. The point I am trying to make is this. There is nothing wrong with that club of men supporting each other if that support moves people in a positive direction. Whats troubling is many of them are not supporting people in moving towards a positive direction. They are holding people back by teaching them to blame, that they have no choice and using acceptance as a tool to stop people from trying. Ultimately teaching them they cant walk. How does that serve you other then to hold you right where you are and never allow you to grow ? That is not support thats is a group of people holding you back so that they dont have to feel alone. That’s whats sucks about TFL. Bill is wrong. On violence against women or just in general. Violence is not on the rise. In the late 1800’s to the present violence against people has actually gone down. In the 1800’s 1 in 2 women were raped. Now in 2011 its 1 in 4. Domestic violence was even worse but it was never reported. However people seem to think its on the rise. How can that be. 😕 Because between the 1800 and now the media is on the rise. We can get more information now then ever before. More news from around the world and it gives people the perception that rape murder and crime is on the rise. More people feel comfortable speaking up. In the past it was taboo to say my husband beats me or I was raped. The women was always blamed and looked down upon. Not anymore. That’s the funny thing about perception. When you hold on to one belief its all you can see. Yoda if you dont post thats fine its your prerogative but whether or not you do I know your reading this. People are not trying to shame you. They cant shame you. That’s a choice you make as well. We are trying to tell you that despite what you look like we believe you can be all that you want to be if you just open your mind to the possibilities. That is support not shame. Yes some people have been harsh but just like that Bill guy said in the video about his harshness. We are just trying to make you hear us. I am not telling you I am right and you are wrong. I am saying consider the possibility that there is value in some of what both sides have to say and disregard that which is negative and doesn’t serve you. Hope is not a promise of things to come it an invitation to possiblities. Tisha ---
**Author:** ![Marihino](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/marihino/32/1286_2.png) [@Marihino](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Marihino)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/52 "2011-04-26T13:31:42Z")
Wonderful post, Tisha. I couldn’t add anything. So I’m just gonna say… NO, women can’t give men any good advice on dating. They just cannot. Period. So should I write down my address here for you or will you obtain it from the store? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@SteveO](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/SteveO)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/53 "2011-04-26T17:41:59Z")
> [@Master\_Yoda](#): > > This will be my last post here, because I can’t stand condescending, braindead idiots like you, who make false statements about me, because you don’t even know me, and nor have you met me. > > If you can’t read my posts, just because they are in large font, then you need to consult an optometrist, because I can read them just fine. You don’t like what I write, because it’s the truth, and like that famous Jack Nicholson line in a few good men, “you can’t handle the truth”. > > I have approached lots of women, and they rejected me because of my race, looks, not because of “confidence”,“lack of game” etc. > > And before I get banned from this pathetic forum, I have one last thing to say to you and your brainwashed PUA disciples: > > GO AND LOVE YOURSELF!!! And just to reiterate our forum rules we don’t write in offensive ways so I changed the perceived offensive language to something more in tune with our community. I sure hope you don’t mind 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fade1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/fade1/32/1949_2.png) [@Fade1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Fade1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/54 "2011-04-26T18:16:05Z")
> [@Bella](#): > > Seriously, I think I should just do a couple of shots before logging on here. > Bella Sounds like a good time! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/55 "2011-04-26T19:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > So should I write down my address here for you or will you obtain it from the store? 😃 Hmm tell me Marihino…is England nice this time of year ??? I did want to go to Will’s wedding. Maybe we can discuss the merits of female advice then. I will pack my paddle just in case or I can use a flogger… its up to you. Hell we can take turns and use them both to celebrate the new future kings nuptials 😉😃 Tisha ---
**Author:** ![Marihino](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/marihino/32/1286_2.png) [@Marihino](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Marihino)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/56 "2011-04-26T19:58:41Z")
LOL I needed to google what a flogger is 😉 Ouch. I mean, **nice** 😃 Yeah, let’s celebrate! The weather just got crappy today, but I’m sure it’s nothing you couldn’t sort out with your spells. ---
**Author:** ![Bella](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/bella/32/1738_2.png) [@Bella](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Bella)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/57 "2011-04-26T20:47:11Z")
> [@tisha23](#): > > _ **Hmm tell me Marihino…is England nice this time of year ??? I did want to go to Will’s wedding. Maybe we can discuss the merits of female advice then. I will pack my paddle just in case or I can use a flogger… its up to you. Hell we can take turns and use them both to celebrate the new future kings nuptials** _ 😉 😃 > > Tisha Tish, just let me know if you need …_a hand_, lol. Bella ---
**Author:** ![Fade1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/fade1/32/1949_2.png) [@Fade1](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Fade1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/58 "2011-04-26T20:49:08Z")
😮 😮 ---
**Author:** ![Marihino](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/pheromonetalk.com/marihino/32/1286_2.png) [@Marihino](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/Marihino)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/59 "2011-04-26T21:03:39Z")
> [@Bella](#): > > Tish, just let me know if you need …_a hand_, lol. > > Bella Girls, you’re both very welcome. ---
**Author:** ![tisha23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@tisha23](https://pheromonetalk.com/u/tisha23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006/60 "2011-04-26T22:45:28Z")
> [@Bella](#): > > Tish, just let me know if you need …_a hand_, lol. > > Bella Oh hey that would be great, we are good at tag teaming, you know what they say … two floggers are better the one. Oh and Bella bring the cuffs 😃 Tisha [Previous page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006.md?page=2) [Next page](https://pheromonetalk.com/t/what-is-up-with-this-tfl-true-forced-loneliness-movement-looks-vs-personality/50006.md?page=4)