I haven’t tried combining any of the putatives with the mainline products yet. Just got Liquid Trust and currently testing it out. I may just have to revisit p74-79 with the other products before I start testing p80-85.
-SwingerMD
So no great insights into P75, P76, P77, P78 ?
this is about par for the course… they are putatives, experimentals… so we should be happy if we get two winners… some may be redundant… sort of like the ones that really work but not as effective… or we may be missing something by getting ahead of ourselves… orrrr… sometimes nature has desinged to work around a pheromone cluster or combination… so possibly 5 mu each of P75-78 may act as part of a supporting bouquet that creates a “wide vibe” … too may -mone experiences I’ve had have been “narrow peak” … like hitting one note on the piano over and over again… one strong social response instead of a more natural, general, socially real feeling…
took a few people a little while to figure out TAF (the latter even with gentle prompting by mharris) and meo-est and my impression is there aren’t that many of us testing 75-78 so seems too early to say.
likely we now have so many new toys (+ a ridiculous number of reasonable ways to combine them) that there is a path dependence in what gets explored. people probably choose to start with the putatives that seem to have some chance of doing something interesting based on initial comments (I know I do) while the rest of the putatives are unexplored wallflowers.
I tried deliberately to overdose on P74 and P79 last night (but not a very pure trial since i wore a complex mix of other things). (think a total of 300mcg P74 and 150mcg P79, each spread over 2 applications spaced 3 h apart). went to a trashy, noisy club filled with wannabes that I didn’t like very much. a girl pushed her friend into me and friend asked if I was bisexual and said they were lesbians. (too loud for me to talk without leaning in and not in the mood to play so I didn’t respond). moved somewhere better. an elegant tall brunette came over from across the room and hugged me and said so nice to see you again. we chatted for a bit - still not entirely sure whether she really did think I was somebody else or was just a more aggressive hit. (thinking about it there is actually a small chance she is someone I did go on a date with a few years back. my memory for faces is terrible).
from swingermd’s blog, it does seem like P75 also does something interesting…
Sort of thinking about this… A1 does appear to have this gloomy afternote… it’s good while you’re out and about then you can feel sort of down and funky the next day… might be a unglorious feeling the morning after… so I was thinking, maybe nature has evolved to spread out signaling agents in minute quantities of many agents to avoid mood overloads and mood rebounds… it might actally be an elegant solution to softly impact different regions of the brain in a nuanced way... like a good suspension in a fine car that lets you coast over rough roads without losing a sense of control…
one thing I am not clear on is how the brain decides to modulate pheromonal release according to the context. it’s not difficult to see how hypothalmic control of blood testosterone levels would lead to greater or less androgen secretion by the axillary glands and then the skin bacteria will do their stuff. but obviously from all our experiments it seems that the potential variation is more nuanced than just a single volume control.
neil strauss said in one of his old mystery lounge postings that he had read somewhere that commonalities revealed in conversation between potential partners lead to the release of pheromones. (i’m imagining nol-heavy release leading to a stay up and talk all night vibe). but what are the actual brain and body processes involved?
Real perceptions involve rich mixes of signals
It looks like this is the way the brain evolved… single note synthetic things like flavors in cheap food always taste screwed up and abnormal… as the quality of the food increases, the freshness and naturalness increases too… even a good bar of artisanal chocolate is miles more detailed than cheapo chocolate… and the same applies to great fragrances as well… I think the brain is happier with complex stimulation than oversimplified stimulation… maybe that’s why a product like A314 works as well as it does… the secret is in the balance of 9 ingredients instead of blasting away with pure none… the brain gets the richness of the chemical signal… for all I know an omni-mone like P74-P88 combined in small doses of each may be a vastly more fascinating chemical message to the whole brain experience than a ditzy androstenol love + babble surge… it may be telling the receiving brains that “there is a hormonally wonderous being before me”****… messages that are too simple, to monotonous may either wear out the receiver, or they may habituate rapidly (this is the normal way the brain copes with overstimulation, it counter-adapts), or they may be perceived as inappropriate, or confusing, or in conflict with some deeply held value… Androtics might come up with an ultra product… a 15 pheromone combo or whatever… the next major step beyond the A314 class that is “sublime presence incarnate”.
I couldn’t agree w/ you more. I believe that when I began to incorporate A314 and bnol (CTTM1) in my mixes, they gained a new richness. The feel was very different…as you put it “a more natural…real feeling”
I know a couple of women who have said that they get this effect from -rone. They say that -rone gets them turned on more consistantly than -none. Apparently, it gets them really “revved up”, but it eventually begins to wear on them and they get kinda burnt out from it. I really should thank them, because it was their feedback that got me looking more seriously at -rone. As a result of my search for -rone sources, I discovered A314 a few years ago.
Might!?! Does anyone doubt that MHarris is already working on such a product line? The care that has gone into developing the Instant line shows that he has a grasp of the nuances of these molecules. Otherwise we’d simply have dosed anol, bnol, TAA, A-1, TAL or TAH (to name a few) w/out any mods done to them. Some day soon, we’ll look back at the instant line of products and be amazed at how simplistic they were.
Harris & Co. are wisely using us as a giant feedback generator to steer the development of superior products… the more we can elucidate, the more he can create… in other words, we are in a dialectical relationship with the author … which IMHO is a very sophisticated business model because the product development cycle is always up and running with a just in time delivery frame… which ultimately means better results for everybody…
With that thought in mind… I just received my new test project from them, a precisely balanced mix of 10 mu P75, P76, P77, P78 each for a total of 40 mu per squirt... first impressions ? Much more favorable than any single juice right out of the bottle… nature definitely seems to favor the “distributed message model” … a solid, clean head clearing positive feeling of confident functionality… and clearly “broadband” as well … there wasn’t this annoying, pushy, out of balance twing that can come with too much of one thing at the expense of another… this is suggesting that a juice that is 5 mu each of ten putatives may be a lot more enjoyable, and useful, and all around engrossing that 50 mu of any one thing or even 25 mu of two things…
Sounds interesting…looking forward to reading about your testing. I’m looking forward to testing the putatives myself. As I’m unfamiliar w/ the new line of AR stuff, I’m planning to work my way thru some of the Experimones first. I tend to agree w/ what you’ve said above, from my recent experiences w/ TAA. I think I need to determine my dosage sweet spot for these, aside from getting a general feel for each molecule. There’s a big difference between TAA and IS to me. I have to low dose TAA compared to IS…the mods really show in IS. About 30-45 mu of IS is good for me w/ an upper limit of about 60 mu. Above 60 mu of IS and things become kinda trippy and a 10-20 mu dose of TAA on top of that…fugettaboudit. I can’t handle much straight TAA. I hit overload at about 20 mu. Your analogy about repeatedly tapping a single note really applies here.
You might try P74 in place of TAA
it isn’t the same… they’re first cousins or therabouts… P74 is sort of like a midpoint between alpha-nol and TAA with a minor earth note… the earth note is hard to explain conceptually until you learn to recognize it…
What needs to be remembered about the putatives, Experimones and indeed ALL the products, is that very often responses illicited vary dramaticaly from gender to gender.
Just because P79 has a sexual edge when used by a woman (it definitely does), does not follow that the same will be the case for a man wearing it, just as if I were to wear P74, the result may be very different from a man wearing it, or incorporating it into HIS mixes.
It would probably be a good idea for us to have two threads that people could consult, to see what kind of results both genders get from using the putatives and Experimones. One for the men to post their results taken on a social and sexual basis, and one for the women to post theirs.
That seems like a far more logical and methodical method of us finding out just which component does what.
Using the putatives and Experimones is going to be a hit and miss process always, for a short time after they are introduced, but then results will start to crystallise and we will begin to see patterns forming and common ground developing
While that is brilliant for people who can afford (cash-wise) to experiment and are happy to do so, being a Uni HOD, I know that there are a lot of students - not just younger ones, but also of the more mature variety, and also people of a considerably lower income than others, who simply do not have the money to do the kind of experimentation necessary for them to hit on their ideal products and/or mixes.
To this end, if we are able to fundamentally say for each of the putatives/Experimones, “I’m a man and when I use putative/Experimone X - this is the social and sexual result on (A) men and (B) women,” and we garner the same two results from a female perspective, we will be helping people to figure out just what to add to their 'mone arsenal, without them wasting money on something that may not be ideal for them.
Grants and student loans over here are abysmal, and I assume that is the same on a worldwide basis, since money invested in student funding is down by 47% since 2003.
I have noticed that a lot of pheromone users are students of one variety or another, so I just think this would help people out, and it also gives any new people to the site, instant access to a fount of knowledge in the form of genuine results posted by people on this site, which is so much better than places you go to where there is a mish-mash of half-baked, slightly airy-fairy info that simply ends up just confusing you totally, as to what to purchase to get YOUR desired results.
Just an idea. 
Ail
So far I believe this to be a critical piece of understanding
I’ve been looking at molecules of scented things, flavored things, nutritional flavones, flavonols, flavonoids, and other biologic products. One consistent observation is that nature tends to make a multitude of variants… the “true aroma” of a flower is almost impossible for the perfumer to replicate because there may be dozens of isomers, close cousin molecules, that give that flower its perceptual realness… my working hypothesis as of now is that the natural state isn’t one or two or even three pheromones , although they may “work” in the short term, they tend to exhaust the wearer (and possibly temporaily down regulate his or her pheromone perception of real people, like listening to an iPOD at 110 dB all day long numbs your hearing) and probably exhaust or habituate the receivers after a while, and even mentally it is too much of one thing all of the time… in evolutionary terms, I think pheromones were organized along “symphonic” lines… my first experiment with P75-78 mix at 10 mu each is definitely pointing in this direction, there is something basically more satisfying and less tiresome about it, and I got some of that balanced action with A314 that I didn’t with a heavily tilted to -none or -nol type of juice… we will probably find that there are clusters or constellations of pheromone ingredients that need to work in concert, for instance they may be a male cluster like P75-P80 inclusive, sort of a six pheromone chord, and there may be empathogenic clusters that aren’t primarily reproductive, there may be female clusters, and other group dynamic clusters… once these are worked out to a point of reasonable clarity Harris may be able to a single bottle of say, general masculine or general feminine or general empathogen, where one drop would pretty much do it in a good wide stable way.
In nature, the healthiest organisms have the reserves of metabolic energy and DNA diversity to generate wide ranges of chemistry, and less healthy, stresssed, or malnourished organisms produce simpler chemical outputs, just compare the taste of fruit grown under ideal conditions and picked at the moment of perfect ripeness to a barely salable fruit off season… so I’m almost certain that we are hardwired to detect broad ranges as meaning healthy, well cared for, disease free, good DNA heritage… on some level of perception it may even be the case that the subtle jostling of a number of isomers produces a secondary effect that is perceived by the primitive brain as a “good DNA evidence marker”… where often, in nature, the excess output of a single odorant or agent can actually be the indicator of a disease state, back when doctors were more sensorially trained, there were particular body odors that were clear signs of specific infection… something I didn’t appreciate until I contracted bacterial pneumonia and my body began producing an intense reek of sourdough fermentation… obviously the lower brain was evolved to detect that molecule and label it “disgusting reek” for a self protective reason… schizophrenics have a telltale odor as well, creepily like they are covered with earwax and smelly cheese… so these high, single note peaks may indicate somehow that all is not well and broadly distributed molecular plateaux may suggest that the organism is in peak condition.
What needs to be remembered about the putatives, Experimones and indeed ALL the products, is that very often responses illicited vary dramaticaly from gender to gender.
Just because P79 has a sexual edge when used by a woman (it definitely does), does not follow that the same will be the case for a man wearing it, just as if I were to wear P74, the result may be very different from a man wearing it, or incorporating it into HIS mixes.
It would probably be a good idea for us to have two threads that people could consult, to see what kind of results both genders get from using the putatives and Experimones. One for the men to post their results taken on a social and sexual basis, and one for the women to post theirs.
That seems like a far more logical and methodical method of us finding out just which component does what.
Using the putatives and Experimones is going to be a hit and miss process always, for a short time after they are introduced, but then results will start to crystallise and we will begin to see patterns forming and common ground developing
While that is brilliant for people who can afford (cash-wise) to experiment and are happy to do so, being a Uni HOD, I know that there are a lot of students - not just younger ones, but also of the more mature variety, and also people of a considerably lower income than others, who simply do not have the money to do the kind of experimentation necessary for them to hit on their ideal products and/or mixes.
To this end, if we are able to fundamentally say for each of the putatives/Experimones, “I’m a man and when I use putative/Experimone X - this is the social and sexual result on (A) men and (B) women,” and we garner the same two results from a female perspective, we will be helping people to figure out just what to add to their 'mone arsenal, without them wasting money on something that may not be ideal for them.
Grants and student loans over here are abysmal, and I assume that is the same on a worldwide basis, since money invested in student funding is down by 47% since 2003.
I have noticed that a lot of pheromone users are students of one variety or another, so I just think this would help people out, and it also gives any new people to the site, instant access to a fount of knowledge in the form of genuine results posted by people on this site, which is so much better than places you go to where there is a mish-mash of half-baked, slightly airy-fairy info that simply ends up just confusing you totally, as to what to purchase to get YOUR desired results.
Just an idea.
Ail
Hi Ail
Please, can you describe this ‘sexual edge’ that P79 has when used by a woman.
BTW I totally agree with your point about the putatives garnering different results depending on whether they are worn by a man or a woman. I would love to see a thread in the women’s section of the forum devoted to the putatives. I do not know if any of the women are trying any of them (maybe the Countess?)…
Visionary
Hiya!
P79 when I use it, seems to make me very up for it, but it also makes “The Man” VERY aroused, and he gets very tactile. Every response appears to be heightened, if that makes sense.
I know it must be the P79, as the time I tested it, I only otherwise had on B-nol, which definitely brings me closeness, and intimate conversation, but not any sexually-orientated results.
Perhaps even the combination of the two together brought this result, so I may have to totally isolate P79, and just wear it with a lovely fragrance on top, to see what that does.
Ail
Great posts there, Ail.
Thanks
More on the P75 through P78 “ET” mix
First off the bat, this is male stuff all the way. This combination so far produces kind of an irreverent, what the hell, young guy perspective, although no sexiness has come from it so far… there is some dectectable spaciness that might be the contribution of P78, could this have something to do with the inherent spaciness of guys in their ealy 20s ? There was a little of the outspoken nature of male pheros, nothing like the piss fests of -none … almost introspective outspokenness if that makes any sense … it actually seemed to veer away from the overly emotional, like it wanted a solid here and now realism, no soft romantic lighting, thank you, more grounded than hightened, clearly evaluating rather than empathetic… I was very aware of the limitations of those around me without judging them… but with a well defined idea of what those limitations are and what the working implications are of having those limitations… what ? Professionalism, maybe. Wanting to move past limits and boundaries. OTOH, patient and accepting too.. like, OK, this is the state of the game at this moment and if I want to play in a better game it is up to me to see that change through. I guess this mix assists in seeing the outlines of a situation, so a romantic date enhancer, no, no way… is the P78 spaciness a way of keeping the mind limber ? Does it have something to do with a youthful flexibility of thought ? Not taking things too damn seriously ? It wasn’t like confusion or incompetence, definitely an attitudinal position like WTF is this all about, anyway ?
BNOL or TAF be used as a reinforcing agent or catalyst?
I have tried P74 at 20mcg & 50mcg. Responses at both dosages are similar in nature, with the high dose being more pronounced. Using more as a single dose would seem futile, top-ups are more cost-efficient. Unlike, TAF or BNOL, P74 doesn’t “blossom” at higher dosages.
Q1 : Could BNOL or TAF be used as a reinforcing agent or catalyst to bring up the full spectrum of P74 or any other putatives?
I’m really curious about P74 when worn by lone-wolves (CEEs), trying to look for WAGG replacement here. So far, P74 mimics WAGG but lacks the edge of WAGG when it comes to business/serious discussions (i.e. depth of trust is lower with P74).
For social & laid-back talk, P74 & WAGG are equal IMO, but there are differences between genders. P74 is unisex, responses are similar across both genders & age.
WAGG is a trust-buddy mone for males, responses from older males (>45 y.o.) seems more prominent. Females in general treat WAGG like a good-brother figure but responses from young women are much better (at least in my case). I’ve got much more hits & hair-flips with WAGG, compared to NPA/w or SoE.
P74 (5mcg/s) is the only putative I got. It helps to compare & describe the putatives against other known/familliar products, especially when you don’t have the putative-in-question. If P74 prove useful to CEEs, I will get another bottle as an alternative to WAGG for mone cycling.
Q2 : Anything useful for lone wolves from P75-P79? In comparison to androstenone-like-responses?
i2w
Page 4 : Evidence for a functional VNO-CNS connection
http://www.ehponline.org/members/2002/suppl-4/655-661greene/EHP110s4p655PDF.PDF
A-1 administered to 40 females exhibited increased alpha brain-waves within 35 mins, effects non-existant after 75 mins. Alpha brain-waves means less anxiety or depression, human brain cycles rapidly between alpha, beta, theta & delta brain waves during waking hours. This could be the attitude-ricochet we see with A1 after a repeated alpha wave engagement.
Side note : VNO is present in pre-natal life, so exposing pregnant ladies to mones might not be the best thing to do. It was indicated in a lengthy study of transsexuals, find Figure 16.
I’m too sleepy to sort it out now.