I could vouch for that.
Rats, I actually had more free time today thn I usually do, and spent that time making pointless posts in the general MEN’s pheromone advice forum. Could have spent that time discussing your points over here :-. Well anyways, you bring up good points, but I still can’t give in 
.
I should have been more clear. Well, here’s where I beg to differ, you mention that you went to Korea and interacted with the Koreans there and had different observations there. I’m not surprised because the examples about the fresh off the boat east Indians were the same exact case. What I mean to say, is that there were differences in their reactions, which I agree is culturally driven. The reaction displayed by an Indian-American here was different from the fresh off the boat Indian. But I negate those observations more-so because ultimately I don’t find the reaction itself useful. The reaction is based off many factors. My own culture, my own physical appearance, my way of communicating, my body language, my target’s atmosphere, how their day’s going so far, etc etc etc.
I’m much more concerned about how the pheromones itself affect a target. It’s MUCH harder to gauge how a pheromone works if you’re only looking for natural/biological effects. This is because reactions can be measures according to how a person would naturally act or behave, whereas the actual effects of the pheromones themselves is much harder to see and requires a lot of questions and observations about how the target initially feels. So I guess in that sense, I didn’t word my previous post as correctly as I should have.
And that’s why so far its led me to believe that there’s something in MX203 that biologically ilicits the reaction it does from its targets. I’ve even gotten positive reactions from African Americans using MX203, but I again can’t conclude anything with that because reactions can be based off a multitude of factors that could have nothing to do with pheromones themselves. But I have noticed through initial body language and eye movement and a sudden change in breathing rate (can’t eye ball heart rate obviously, unless I initiate kino and discreetly check myself, which I sometimes get lucky and pull off) in targets due to the pheromones. Even in the AA example, I did feel that the mx203 caused some negative sensations and possible anxiety within her even though she acted very positively and even flirted with me.
But then again, clinical trials can be very misleading if its just based off one persons observations with a numbered amount of experiences and notes. And I haven’t even had this bottle of MX203 for that long, but hopefully by the time I finish a good 2 bottles of this stuff I’ll have much clearer facts and figures to work with.
I guess the general point I’m trying to make, is that cultures and such are factors more closely associated with a target’s reaction.
Whereas, a biological and genetic makeup is the leading factor into depicting the sensations/arousals/feelings due to the pheromones themselves.
By this logic, it runs parallel to the idea of attraction itself.
-Beauty is only one in many factors for general attraction.
-Feeling/sensation ilicited by pheromones, is only one of many factors in a general reaction itself.
Taking all this into account, I still strongly believe that one consistency I see is that the same thing within MX203 that brings out positive feelings in Caucasians, brings out negative/irritable feelings in AA’s, regardless of their culture and upbringing. But their behavior and reaction doesn’t always reflect this.
Well, I wouldn’t say anyone’s giving in to anyone else. We’re pretty much on the same page.
Okay, so here’s where we agree, Indian-Americans will be culturally different than American-Indians or Indian-Indians. And yes, reactions are based of many factors.
Well, here’s how I see it. I could be terribly wrong. Emotions can be separated into 3 categories: positive, neutral, and negative. Our interpretation of those 3 basic emotions are the basis for all the other ‘emotions’ we have. So we can examine biological responses to a point.
Pheromone A triggers Reaction A.
But as you said, a simple reaction isn’t useful. It needs to be a specific reaction. The problem is that the path to ‘trigger’ that ‘specific reaction’ will be influenced by cultural norms.
I’m going to take anger as an example because it’s one of the most universally shared emotions. In Korean culture, certain behavior might be considered rude and worthy of retaliation. However, in another culture that same behavior might be tolerated. That’s not a biological influence, that’s a cultural influence.
In both cases you have Stimulus A triggers Reaction A biologically. A spike in andrenaline, rush of endorphins/dopamine/serotonin, what have you. How we interpret that spike in neurochemicals is dependant on our mindset, our world view, our experiences – our culture.
So for any given stimulus, we have the following chain:
Stimulus -> Biological reaction -> Cultural associations -> Exhibited behavior
I don’t often get much interest from AA girls (perhaps since I’m not looking for any due to lack of interest.), but I have before so I know its not a biological thing that excludes me from being interesting to them. However, culturally, I am very different. I grew up in a French bilingual school, so I was raised with French values at school, Korean values at home, and American values amongst general society and friends. I don’t think my values are radically different when it comes down to core issues (health, family, etc..) but some societal traits are definitely valued more than others. That being said, the only AA girl at that school (it was small) was really into me. Perhaps that’s just because it was me, or perhaps because we shared a common bond in being one of the few, few minorities at the school (almost all American or French - go figure, huh? )
I also tend to attract a lot of caucasian girls. I know it’s not biological. I don’t know how to interact as well with asian girls. I know that’s also not biological and due, partially to growing up with caucasian girls. I think the reason why I can socialize better with cascasians is precisely because I grew up in a predominantly caucasian environment. My Korean upbringing at home allows me to interact much better with the Korean community than if I had grown up without any at all. (Especially since the Korean community happens to look down on Koreans that aren’t all that ‘Korean’)
Yes they can, that’s why there’s a whole forum dedicated to this stuff. Not to mention discussions like ours.
Quite the food for thought 
The exhibited behavior in your other example, would be anger. And you’re completely right about how exhibited behavior will differ from culture to culture based on the perception of certain sensations. We just have a difference in opinion about to what extent culture is associated with biological makeup. *Because in my opinion, another factor in how we interpret the change in neuro-chemicals is our biological makeup. *As well as our culture and world views, etc as you’ve already pointed out. Think of African American females. They’re just naturally drawn to men with higher levels of testosterone. Its not about cultural associations that change the perception of higher testosterone being deemed as ‘more attractive’; this would only hold true if the woman’s biological makeup was a carbon copy of a Caucasian woman’s. Which it’s not. Her own makeup factors into what she needs from a member of the opposite sex to be perceived as attraction.
Woman A (Caucasian) has type 1 natural biochemical levels.
Woman B (African American) has type 2 natural biochemical levels.
If both are exposed to two different men, with different testosterone levels, Woman A is more likely to pick the lower testosterone male, and vice versa for Woman B. Its not their cultural perception of what they perceive as more attractive, its the fact that their own biological makeup is more compatible with said male.
I guess the point that I’m trying to get across, is that each woman’s own biology is compatible with certain other biologies in men. And usually you can group biological makeup according to ethnicity because of the similarities within each ethnicity.
Maybe heavy P93 is an arousal for Caucasian women because its congruent with their own genetic or biological makeup. Whereas the biological reaction differs in African American women when exposed to the same amount of P93 because their own biology is different and needs a different type of neuro-chemical change to cause a spike in ‘arousal level’. I guess it could be ‘cultural associations’ perceiving certain spikes as different laws of attraction or what not, but in my mind that argument would make more sense if the biological makeup of the different ethnicities were more identical.
Who knows, maybe I’m just rambling on for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, 
but all I know is that there’s a lot of gray area and mix-matching of our neuro transmitters being fired in the space between stimulus and exhibited behavior.
P.S. Kind of confused about the section about the lack of interest in AA’s and such, but I agree the attraction has less to do with biology than it does with other things. Personality, looks, and everything else obviously are huge factors in who you and don’t attract.
Maybe something along the lines of AA women just have a lower biological tolerance for P93 for example? Since their own make up isn’t as congruent with high levels of this putative. But you could be completely right about, that being exposed to those levels of P93 just isn’t perceived attractive, due to cultural associations as you pointed out. Only thing is that it just doesn’t explain why all Caucasian women so far are turned on by it(or maybe all AA’s being turned off by it?) or produce hits, regardless of their cultural awareness.
Yes, quite the food for thought indeed. You bring up good points. I didn’t really consider that how we interpret the value change in neuro-chemicals might be dependant on biology. This is probably true. We all have different value thresholds for ‘depression’ or ‘hyper activity’ and I guess that’s what I was getting at too. I suppose we’ll never know at which point biology takes a step back and culture takes over. They most likely go hand in hand and we just haven’t the concepts to discuss it properly yet.
I wish I could sit and write more but I need to leave work. I’ll just end on this…
You mention AA females are naturally drawn to higher levels of testosterone. Here’s the question: Are they drawn to higher levels of testosterone because of the higher levels of testosterone or because of the effects of higher levels of testosterone? One could argue that it isn’t the absolute levels of testosterone, but the relative levels of testosterone. So if an AA female had lower than normal levels of testosterone, she might not require a male with as high levels of testosterone as before.
I say this from the POV that a female probably would want to mate with a man that is more masculine than her, not vice versa.
I’m playing DA to an extent as well, so don’t worry. I’ll be back like the govenator.
Interesting question, but I don’t think you can take one away from the other, since they go hand in hand and reflect upon the other. In the same way I can’t say for sure if its a girl’s biochemical levels and hormones themselves that I’m attracted to, or the reflection of those hormonal levels manifested in physical mannerisms. Maybe subconsciously her biological levels arouse me, and consciously it’s her actions due to her own levels.
Who knows though? I look at it the same way pheromones on this site work. I can put on some A314 and people subconsciously feel my more dominant aura, and at the same time consciously are more aware of my added confidence in the form of my body language and such.
Just to let you know, I wouldn’t base my research solely on what race you think someone is by looking at them. Wentworth Miller is half black and looks white. So does my son. I am more exotic looking. Right now I don’t look black at all, not even mixed and my father is 100%. My best friend is half-Asian. She looks hispanic. Her kids look white. My other friend’s kids are half-Mexican. None of them look like they are anything but white. Many people here in Los Angeles who are Mexican look Asian.
You can’t say that I will be turned on by something that most caucasians are or turned off that most african americans are, I’m part both. How do you know ALL caucasian blonds are turned on by it? Are they all true blonds or fake blonds? They could be hispanic or mixed race blonds. Did EVERY caucasian blonde come on to you? How do you know ALL african american women are turned off by it? Maybe you treated them differently than you did the caucasians and it had nothing to do with the pheros at all.
Some people are into ONE kind of person. My friend from high shool is white and ONLY dates black guys. Won’t look at a white guy. Brad could dump Angelina for her and she wouldn’t care. They may not have been into the kind of guy you are.
By the way, it’s been scientifically proven that all of us have the same DNA except for a VERY small percentage and we’re all African when you get down to it. I have psychological reasons why I am attracted to men of a certain skin color (I should say why I am not attracted to men of a certain color). But someone’s skin color shouldn’t matter.
That’s true, sometimes ethnicities aren’t quite what you think they are. I’m Korean but due to my dark complexion, I am more consistently pegged Filipino, Thai, or Samoan…
NJM brings up a good point that I didn’t have time to make earlier. In the end, we share more in common biologically than not. Since we know that any fertile human mating with another fertile human will produce offspring, it is not genetics that prevents reproductive behavior. It is culture. Never has our biology prevented viable offspring from being produced, there has, however, numerous, documented () and undocumented cases where culture was ultimately the divisive issue in relationships.
But then again, perhaps it is exactly that small percent difference, that makes all the difference. It makes a big difference from monkeys to humans.
Huh? this is pretty much covered in the previous posts about emphasis on reactions and the acknowledgment of too many factors weighing in on a positive or negative reaction. That’s why, a physical reaction in most cases is not very reliable. My observations have nothing to do with how an African American ultimately treated me, I even stated somewhere in a previous post that I received warmer reactions from AA’s than from majority Caucasians. But exhibited behavior/reactions are NOT a good indicator of whether its a pheromone driven or not. Again, too many factors. That’s why you have to try the best you can to make observations based off of biological reactions. So in other words, your assumption that I was inferring that ‘all AA’s were turned off by me and all blonds were turned on by me’ is unfair and isn’t warranted. I don’t think you’ve read all the posts in this thread.
Further more, because my tendency to try to take a more scientific approach on things, I only report and note observations based on all the facts, so I actually DO ask a person (regardless of if they’re a friend or not) what ethnicity they are, in the most discreet possible manner possible. And most people are generally more than happy to talk about themselves, in which case I listen and take mental notes about their possible behavior patterns, blood type, and YES ethnicity.
Also, being a medical student I encounter a multitude of people in hospitals that by default have to reveal their history, as well as majority of their information about themselves. So I do have the luxury of knowing a lot of information about some people and can more accurately cancel out behaviors or biochemical stats changes that may be due to a certain pre-existing medical condition that may possibly dilute pheromone observations. But if they don’t, or if it doesn’t affect the changes that I do look for, than I can more accurately affiliate that change to the pheromone itself. And patient confidentiality is one reason I choose not to report any reactions I receive from patients. And yes, people who are mixed or multiple ethnicities, I put in a different group altogether in my notes. One last point, yes the DNA sequence that can be directly compared between the two genomes is 99 percent identical. That tiny difference is what causes biological differences within each of us both physically and hormonally.
If I have offended you in any way, shape or form, than I sincerely apologize. I assure you it wasn’t my intention. And I suggest you read all the posts in the thread before making assumptions based on a few.
I’m currently enjoying a nice slab of pumpkin pie. Today’s my cheat day, so I get to indulge on random goodies that aren’t allowed on normal days. Sure beats drinking whey mixed with flax seed! barf
Oh, that explains a lot. I’m a psych major…yep..explains a lot.
Now I clearly see how we’re stuck in that gray area. Being a medical student, you’re trained to look at the physical body first to determine how that might effect the mind. Whereas as a psych student, we’re looking at how the mind might effect the body. Ironic.
I guess my only question is, during testing, how do you get biological response data? Hook up subjects to a machine? How do you make such analysis in the field while wearing a mix? And if you can’t take exhibited behavior into account, then we’re left with what?
I thought you might be hungry, so I left some food for..eating?
Psych major! I sort of had a hunch, but wasn’t too sure. But yeah it definitely explains the clash of our slightly different philosophies over this ethnicity issue. : P Always beneficial to see things from a different light, helps tweak and question my own ideas.
Don’t want to get too deep into the medical aspect, but its not hard to assess a person’s current given emotions just by looking at a few chemical changes from a few simple tests. I obviously don’t do tests to measure these things on randoms, but my dad has his own clinic where I’ve familiarized myself with a lot of people over the years, and don’t mind letting me do things here and there just to observe quick changes before and after pheromone exposure. Even though majority are subtle and sometimes non-existent, I do find measurements helpful in most cases. One time I even got creative, and knowing a person had some thiopental (may act similar to a ‘truth serum’) in their system, ‘I simply asked do you feel good around me?’ And she couldn’t answer. I then asked ‘do you feel anxious in a negative way around me?’ and she agreed. Thiopental temporarily sort of removes the brain’s ability to use its, to put simply, upper neurons; and since lying is a higher cortical function, she was unable to lie around me. Creative huh? : P
Now, onto ‘in the field’ analysis.. this is much tougher, because there’s no facts and figures put in front of you. However, simple changes in breathing rates, breathing patterns, eye movements, and even certain jitters can tell a great deal of how one’s feeling. Only because there tend to be subconscious reactions, and any conscious physical reaction would be labeled as exhibited behavior, which we try to avoid. Sometimes things like heart rate are unreliable, because tachycardia or a higher heart rate may occur from both, let’s say, fear and excitement. Sometimes even those same jitters and breathing rates can be inaccurate on how to assess their emotional well being at the time, so I try to leave a large margin for error. And i guess I do have to take into account their exhibited behavior if only to justify or conclude my theory about their initial subconscious reactions. But on the whole, just like any other type of disease or measure of well being, you don’t take a few symptoms here and there. You put them all together and draw the most reasonable conclusion.
Cool. That must be convenient. For studying, practicing, and pheromone testing.
Uhh..truth serum? How it works is pretty cool…but why do you guys use it in medicine?..and does it require large doses and/or lethal? Just wondering.
You might be able to say that their exhibited behavior might be dependent on previous experiences in those cases. Say with heart rate. There are situations were it is painfully obvious whether the subject has an elevated heart rate due to fear or excitement. However, in the cases where it is more ambiguous, that might depend on the personal history of said individual. Let’s say the situation is meeting a new guy at a bar alone. One girl has met many guys by herself and had no problems. The other girl has met some guys by herself and some have been no problem, but the others were trouble. Well, girl 1 might interpret her elevated heart rate as excitement since she has less negative experiences associated with elevated heart rates in that given environment and the inverse is true with positive experiences. Whereas girl 2, she might have more mixed feelings. Depending on the situation, she might be excited or she might decide that it doesn’t feel right and is fear instead.
Of course there’s (unfortunately) the possibility of girl 3 who has only had bad experiences meeting new guys alone, but she probably doesn’t come to bars anymore, or at least not alone.
You’re right though, in the end, we do need to take all the perspectives and construct the most appropriate perspective from amongst those available.
It’s an ultra-short acting barbituate, usually used as an anesthetic. But only in higher doses will it create a lack of consciousness for a prolonged amount of time. Can used for a lot of things, even during a C-section delivery, as it has the ability to knock the mother out but keep the baby conscious for obvious reasons.
Finally received my new shipment of products, and the first thing I noticed when I was picking apart the bubble wrap tape was an extremely foul smell that resembled something along the lines of vomited cheese from a goat’s mouth. It turned out that 2 of my MX103 to-go bottles had leaked all over, leaving little left. Everything else was fine and completely full though. First thing I’m going to do is calculate and composite a cover cologne into the leaky bottles themselves, because this is by far the worst smelling product offered in the whole store. (not counting anything with copulins)
Man, I am drained today.
But anyways, I’m starting to get paranoid about my room temperature. It sometimes tends to get hot in here, and I don’t want to risk damaging my phero’s the slightest bit. I wonder where everyone else stores there toys..
Updates have been slow, and there’s so much to report. And is it just me or does TAC profoundly dumb down the sexual aspect of any mix it’s thrown into?
Going to try out 100 mcg TAL + 150 mcg P74 during game one of the Lakers-Spurs game, should be interesting!
And for any San Antonio fans, just remember this