Sadly unintentional:o
There are elements of truth in both sides IMO.
Different strokes for different folks. Some people DO react well to some of the PUA techniques. And there are quite a variety of them, so we aren’t talking about any one system. Much is based on building self-confidence, no harm in that.
From my experience over 40+ years as an “adult” I’ve seen many different sides, many different people, many different reactions.
I too am very uncomfortable with overly “maipulative” behavior IF it does wrong, but then again, I’ve met people who LIKE to be “manipulated.” What works or is right for some doesn’t work or is wrong for others. Where do you draw a line?
In Gem’s defense, I have found a lot of PUA stuff is valid. In Ail’s defense, I’ve found some is false.
(PS - Gem: I am not a verbose persoon and somewhat impatient so I don’t always go into great detail on some of my comments. Plus I sometimes lose track of where I’ve been posting things. I’ve posted things on Love-Scent and elsewhere for example but not here and forgotten that was the case, so not everyone knows from where I’m coming from. When I say I’ve been looking onto PUA stuff bear in mind I not only read the “technique” stuff but the forums and follow up stuff as well etc. Plus after 40+ years a lot of what I read is “been there done that know that it’s true and I wish I had known it earlier…”. Yes I DO try some [but not all] ideas when I can.
I also know that things change with age and experience. And from my own experience that some things that some may say “aren’t gong to work” sometimes do. Everybody is different. Even Deangelo lists “8 personality types that are successful with women” but only concentrates on one type. They type of person you are, and the type of people you hang with, and they type of people who react to your stuff are probably a different type than those Ail knows. What is valid for you is truly “gumpf” for her. If we were all similar there’d only be one style of clothes on the rack, one cologne, ond food diet, etc. But as we know, there are hundreds.
I tired and rambling again…) <sigh>
In a nutshell I can support both Gem and Ail’s viewpoints.
The Game by Neil Strauss is an awesome book and something I would recommend any shy, geeky guy who wants more choice in his life to read to kick start him on his path to self discovery as it did me.
Since reading the Game I have read many more books on personal interaction from bodylanguage books to the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene all in an aim to improve my personal interactions with women and my relationships with people in general.
“Game” or The Pick up arts is about developing yourself and and improving upon what you have, learning from each social interaction so that they can be more fun and more of an experience, moments to share with others ahd make you more interesting, I know Gem certainly has a lot of interesting stories to tell since he has started gaming!
I have only recently started doing this properly and I have already learnt a lot from my interactions, I believe that continuing to go out and game will give me the most important thing in my life; Choice.
oh and Jasmin
Also: in defense of “game” and some PUA stuff, much of it can be found to be a lot like what you see in Social Psychology, human behavior theory, mob behavior theory, etc. We are not always “in control” of ourselves as we’d like to believe. Age, experience, wisdom, personality, etc can have an effect, but under it all we share a lot of similarities in how we react.
I’d suggest not only reviewing “game” and dating techniques, but psychology texts as well (eg “Social and Personal Psychology” as opposed to say Experimental Psychology).
And of course plain old “personal developement and improvement” stuff as well. My Speech and Drama courses in college have come in real handy too. Walk the walk and talk the talk.
Nice post! I have to say I really enjoy people watching and more than anything love interacting with people.
Hey Everyone,
AlphaWolf here from the MM Forums. Came across this site when as we are trying to figure out if pheromones work and if so, how deep one needs to go in attaining knowledge of this “science.”
I feel like Gem is the only one defending the PUA community here and I think this thread has deviated from the real origin: which is: the Game is a fascinating read. And it is. One of the reasons for the book’s success is Neil’s (Style’s) ability to both document the good and bad of the community.
Tyler represents someone who used to be a nerd who excelled at an exceedingly high rate because of his ability to make his techniques mechanical. That’s how some people learn. Mystery has been tested by reporters from major magazines in the field has reached a mastery skill of 5 for 5. That is, he will open 5 sets and at least k-close all of them. Juggler is a natural who does not believe in lying and plays direct game. Zan is a PUG who simply loves women and makes no effort to hide his desires. Does this stuff work? Yes.
It is easy to sit behind a computer and speak logically about whether these techniques will work and if they are pathetic. In the field, when you are in the zone and in a trance with a conversation with a stranger who you feel attraction for, it is much more difficult to make absolute statements. Just as one responds to pheromones, one responds to the “flow” of game.
Life sometimes is about who possesses the strongest frame. Assuming that the book the game is a fascinating read, which I believe most of the posts in this thread agree with: let us focus on the positive stuff: the art of PU helps men become men and to better understand social interactions. Just like martial arts can be used for violence or valued as an art (i.e. Bruce Lee), pick up is a skill that can be bent upon the will of the user.
-AlphaWolf.
Heya AlphaWolf, welcome to Pherotalk Forum. Great first post.
I don’t think that Game needs defending here yet, just my personal opinion. All that I’ve seen so far has been some emoting about Game that properly belongs in the category of misperception or misconception. Some conciliatory business followed.
(I argue this way: If you go about defending something from every “shot” no matter how much that shot misses the mark, then you actually are giving credit to the folks who think they are shooting you down. Acting like you are under attack when someone is attacking a straw man can embolden the opposition.)
BTW, I don’t think that Gem is in dire need of help in making the points he has made about Game; seems pretty competent to me. 
So, if you have the time to experiment, check out the money-back guarantee from Androtics. Best to collect your own data, no intermediaries.
The pick-up community gives men more options in women (and more sex partners). If men have more options, they can have more experience and therefore make a better choice. They can than end up with a better quality of women instead of have to stick with a woman they are actually not very compatible with in the first place (resulting in divorces, family dramas etc…).
On manipulating: If a woman really likes a man she will go as far as she can, to get that man (and then we need to redefine the word manipulate, I can make a list of all the tricks women use, including you but maybe you don’t consider them as manipulating)
I think the worse thing is when the woman thinks the man is a PUA, when he isn’t! Just because he has more confidence than the AFC!
Has anyone been in such a situation?
I would extend this the frame perspective to life is about frames; since that is how we relate to our maps. When you talk with Neil, Mystery, Zan, Wayne (Juggler) or Lance (Mason) do you ever get the impression, even for a moment, that they do not totally believe and are congruent with the frame they are in?
For me, The Game illuminated Style’s experiences and walked me back through my own adventures in becoming socially aware.
The core “aha” moment that I had in reading The Game was that the mastering the art of attraction could be modeled on making your frame so compelling that others were drawn into your frame to “come and play” with you. They may join your frame to escape their current one - if only for a short time. There are a number of mechanisms that one could use to entice someone to shift or “tricks” you could use to get them there (I wouldn’t trick anyone), but the end goal is to get someone into your frame. Since it’s your frame, you automatically have DHV. If you avoid transitional trickery, you will not have a 100% success rate, but you will have an extremely high success rate with complete integrity.
I no longer think in terms of the “art of the pickup”, but completely in terms of the other person’s frame (where they are coming from) and my frame (where I am) and how I can create a bridge between these that both of us can easily traverse. It is then a choice - make my frame compelling enough that the other person gladly walks that bridge, or walk into the other person’s frame. This isn’t a game or a system to me any more; it’s how I build and maintain rapport.
Constantly.
How you respond will show how comfortable you are in your skin and in the environment. Comfort and confidence are attractive, and the comment may indicate that she has noticed it and is responding to it. She wants to know if it is real.
When this happens to me, I call her on it in a light and playful way. Not defensively, what do I have to defend? I ask her why she thinks that. If she has this attribute is tied to a negative trait, I usually use humor to reframe the attribute into something that may be of value to her. If the attribute is tied to something positive, then it’s fun to tease her about being attracted to me but not able to say so directly - and tell her I think that’s cute. Then I drop it.
PUA is just a label; and it could label a high value person who wants to have fun with women in a flirty and open way. Using PUA, AFC, etc. in conversation out here will get you labeled pretty fast. IMO it’s important not get labeled - at least until after 3-4 dates. 
thanks!
You can say I like to flirt but I’m usually serious when I flirt, not sure if I’m clear. I try to express my interest with a flirty smile for instance..
I take back my use of the term then so nobody labels me here
After all my wish / intention is for a long term relationship. Not using people and dumping them.
Fuck, I am so pissed. I just wrote a page long post on shit I had to say.
Here’s the quick recap. Ugh, I’m really unmotivated to re-write this.
What I was going to say is that I have read ‘The Game’.
When I read the book, I see that a person can change if they really want to. They can be who they want to be, if they choose to do so.
I had originally had a whole story on my life, my background, what led me to pheromones, etc.., and what all that had to do with ‘The Game’, but it’s all gone now. Y’all probably didn’t want to read it anyways. But basically it came down to me wanting to become the person I had the potential to be. My presence here on pherotalk is just another leg of the journey.
More importantly, I wanted to say to Ail, that I can understand your frustration towards having your name constantly confused for Ali. When I was young I would have my name constantly butchered. It seems strange when both our names are so simple. My name is Jong. I have had it pronounced every way imaginable. It is pronounced like song, thong, bong, long, etc..but with a J. Instead I got every variation of John under the sun, along with Yong, Yeh-uhng, etc..
Well, in the end Ail, I decided that it wasn’t worth my effort correcting every teacher, every peer, every class, every day. Sooner or later, my teachers would learn my real name and correct themselves. So would my peers. Those that would mispronounce my name intentionally were only people that I didn’t want to talk to in the first place. Save your energy Ail. Those who get your name wrong intentionally aren’t worth the effort, and those who mean well will get it right on their own.
Next, I wanted to say that if your passionate responses against the PUA community and its teachings/knowledge is grounded in personal history, I can understand that and respect that. However, for yourself, I would like to suggest that you take a closer look at the PUA community. Here is why.
“Every man is my superior in one way.”
What this quote means to me is that everyone is better than me at something. Be it cooking, sleeping, painting, killing, stealing, or lying. Everyone has something to TEACH me. If I am willing to listen and learn, I will gain more knowledge. As we all know, knowledge is power. Knowledge is a tool, and like all tools, it can be used for good or for evil.
IMO, the PUA community essentially has roots in Social Dynamics and Psychology. Go past all the basic PUA stuff and maybe you will be able to find something useful for yourself. See some technique or routine you find interesting? Dissect it, figure out its roots in psychology, how it works the way it does. Then apply the basic concepts to your life, how you see fit.
Imagine if you had a stronger relationship with all your patients. How much more enjoyable and fulfilling would your work be then? If you could establish deeper connections with your man or your co-workers, would it be worth it? I would personally say yes.
What are you trying to achieve through using pheromones? It is possible that through the knowledge of psychology or social dynamics, that you can achieve the same goal? What if you combine both? We have already seen reports of it being possible.
Ail, who cares what these PUAs are doing. Let them be. Be the best, most wonderful person YOU can be. Take what they have to offer, and make your world better, just for you.
What have you got to lose? Not like they’ll ever know. I hope my comments have been received as gently and positively as they were intended to be.
-Jong
Wow. If the recap was that long, I wonder how long the original post was..
I won’t repeat the many posts you can search re this subject, but incase you were wondering why many dislike that culture, try to see it from a different perspective:
How a woman is being seen, by the average pua person ?. A game to win, a number to collect, a set to open, you know the rest …
What does your average pua do next evening ?. Next.
Now why should a woman feel that this is the best treatment she deserves ?
We can debate how those tools can be self-help to men, which I like the idea of, but what I see around ?, not really how it is being used.
Oh, and for any that might be wondering, I’m not a PUA, and am not involved in the community, it really could have been any body of knowledge used as an example.
The same can be said of women though and how some of them treat men.
I knew plenty of women who would go out with men just for the free meals, gifts, attention and never had any intention of reciprocating, and I don’t mean through sex. Some men are just looking for friends as well and some women use their power as a woman to take advantage of this. I can remember dozens of times when I was obese that I got a number from a woman only later to find out it was a fake. Did they think they were doing me a favor by elevating my spirits or was it simply a ploy to rid themselves of the fat guy in front of them? Neither way was ethically correct. The correct way is to say no, I’m not interested.
It certainly is a two way street though. I love women and enjoy the company of females. I have read a lot of the PUA theory and have applied it to better my understanding of social relationships. The PUA concept naturally enhances a person’s persona so if you’re inherently a bad person, than there is no book that will make you any different than what you already are. The only way possible to change yourself is through yourself and that is easier said than done.
I find it amusing when women get on here and say that it’s all “garbage” and yet at the same time they will give away a false number, go out to dinner with someone they have no interest in, or never plan on returning a phone call. There are always two sides to the game.
I only read the first two pages, and i’ve watched 1/2 of the annihilation method. A lot of the info presented is very good, but I hope it will better presented in The Game, which I just downloaded and printed out.
I naturaly do many of the things presented in the annihilation method, but they don’t seem to work as well as they should. Maybe I can fine tune my “game” and finaly see some results.
you know - i’ve been around players and pick-up artists all my adult life - i remember being 17 and cruising the mall with my male friends and their little contests to see who got the most numbers after an a few hours or what have you. This was all pre-internet, pre-cult-like follwing, pre-technique, blah blah. It never really bothered me.
This codification of technique does bother me tho. Not that thousands of guys are going out there trying to get as much ass as possible - that’s normal.
I have a problem with the value thing and the negs, and the other ways of “cutting a woman down to size”.
Y’all practitioners may see it as increasing your own value, but it’s still being done at the sake of someone else, no matter how much you try to show them you like them to balance things out. That strikes me as abusive.
really no different than whaling on a chick one day, and buying her flowers to make up for the black eye the next.
I knew it. The second I posted in this thread…BAMB…Negitive rep point saying “The game is Null”
Who ever did this, what’s your problem. I like the confidence boosting abilities, and have alread seen mild success from using the annihilation method. I don’t like all the aspects of it, nor do I want to be a PUA. I just want to be less socialy awkward, and not freeze up when trying to talk to a target female.
I’m sick of this shit. If you have an opinion post a comment or keep it to yourself. Negative rep points are for when people are being out of line or posting poor information. I was just trying to have a conversation about a book in a thread for this paticular book. IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT THEN DON’T READ THIS THREAD!
People are going to talk about this book. It’s sponsered by this forum. Go to the top of the page, to the right of the phero talk symbol and read. It clearly says.
So don’t neg me for something supported by the forum.