I do understand that there’s some validity to the point that the government and executive forces (police f.e.) might stretch a law like this to means that weren’t initially intended. But really: Keeping guns away from children IS a good idea (as you said). There’s been a shooting in a school some weeks ago in some little town here in Germany and the reason why this could happen was because the father of the one killing several people left the guns lying around in the house and not locking them away! For me personally, this main idea is far more important than any theoretical possibility you could construct out of it.
You know, I think in large parts it has something to do with the feeling of injustice, with the feeling of people being treated very differently in terms of law, with the feeling that people do not have the same rights or chances than others. I think this feeling is much more wide spread in the U. S. than in any european country (and rightfully so), because the inequality of people is far stronger. The extreme differences between the few super rich people and the millions of extremely poor people who struggle every day cause a social instability, and that shows!
Unfortunately the idiots in my government are working hard at worsening the social status of the majority of people in my country, only to give the few rich people even more money. I’m afraid this will over time decrease the social stability here, too…
I think one of the big problems with laws like this is that it is a back door way to severely limit or eventually eliminate a “reasonable” ability of the average person to own a weapon. This is done a couple ways.
First, as Soulcreator points out government can make it so difficult to purchase a weapon, that the right to own one almost becomes meaningless. Not to mention certain aspects of the law being a large invasion of privacy. I do not have much of a problem with criminal background checks. I do have a problem with fingerprinting/photographing law-abiding citizens making a legal purchase. This adds another layer of “intimidation” and “jump through this hoop” to making a legal purchase in the first place.
Second, when you have laws that dictate how guns are stored, etc. they just add another layer of “technical difficulty” to simply owning something that is legal to own. That does not mean I am against safely storing weapons. My father kept weapons in the house. And ammo. In the same closet. It just never occured to me to grab them and use them on the school bullies. Go figure …
Third - when you criminalize (as opposed to a civil infraction) breaking any of the detailed laws concerning gun ownership then the government makes the potential costs of owning a gun too high for many people.
So what happens is that while it is still technically legal to own a firearm, laws like this make it difficult and initmidating to do so.
And there is a lot of conflicting statistics about whether access to weapons helps or harms. Some statistics indicate that certain types of crimes go down when people are able to defend themselves. And remember - Washington DC had a complete ban on hundguns until lately. At the same time the Washington Post has done articles about how hard it is for the DC police to solve drug and gang crimes because the criminals are well armed and can terrorize or murder witnesses at will - witnesses who are unarmed and cannot defend themselves without breaking the law.
I know the registration/fingerprint/photograph thing is designed in part to eliminate “straw purchases”. But that is no less an infringement on privacy rights than aspects of the Patriot Act.
I do not believe the “social injustice” arguement either. But that goes into a whole separate arguement and topic.
I hate to make a personal attack, but bubblebob, you are so out of touch with what responsible gun ownership is you are just sounding idiotic.
In a way that makes me think you grew up in a large city of suburbs away from any sort of firearms.
I doubt you have ever “hunted” for food, nor for sport, nor for competition shooting. I do not believe you are in fact qualified to be commenting on what a safe gun is and is not.
As a child in a third generation arms dealer family “Collectible and commemorative / rare caliber firearms”, I do not understand the need for more gun control, we have gun control, we however do not control firearms smuggled into this country, or gang members ahving their girlfriends buy guns for their boyfriends.
There is one simple case in point, look at the UK, they have become so fucked it is not funny.
They spent Billions taking their citizens guns away with no compensation.
Now they have subway bombings, stabbings, and petty theft running amuck.
I believe Australia is the same way currently, Hell look at Germany.
The loss of guns, will not make your daughter safer from the pedophile down the street, but with a gun you are damned sure he is not going to try to break in your “Unprotected Home”.
Exactly. Imagine what it would be like if the government could bust into your house and evaluate your entire household for potential dangers. Say you had on that particular day left a cabinet cabinet with poisonous chemicals and pesticides unlocked and you have a toddler. Or you left the carkeys within reach of your 7 yr old. Or your kitchen knives weren’t locked where your children couldn’t get them, or your kid was running through the house with scissors. And for one of these infractions you could go to prison for 5 yrs for child endangerment.
Why don’t you refrain from personal attacks then? Everyone else seems to do fine without and is able to express their thoughts in a civil manner.
You are completely right! I never came in touch with anyone owning fire weapons, nor did anyone ever threaten me with one, nor do I know anyone who’s ever been threatened with a fireweapon, nor do I know anyone who wants to own one or sees reason to do so.
You know, we’ve got supermarkets over here… You really must be a little behind in Texas (sorry Mark). And no, I never felt the urge to shoot for reasons of sports or competition. And no, I don’t feel that this discussion here is about sports weapons nor do I think that the majority of the american citizens owns a weapon for shooting clay pigeons.
And I’m perfectly sure to be able to say that a safe gun is a gun that doesn’t have a trigger!
You are right, terrorists would not have dared to bomb subways if more british people would have had firearms. Simply because a terrorist doesn’t just blow himself and dozens of people up, but he says something along the lines of this before: “Dear passengers, I’ve got a bomb and am willing to use it. Unless someone decides to shoot me down. You have 60 seconds.” Strange enough, the U. S. was the victim of terrorist attacks although you’ve got plenty of weapons. Strange indeed! And yes, stabbings and theft were completely unknown in the UK before.
Errm, I’m here, so please tell me what to look at in Germany please, because I don’t get what you are trying to tell me…
How would the thief know about your gun? Do you have a big sign at your front door saying “Every thief will be shot!”??
The funny thing of the gun freaks is that they seem to assume that if the ‘good guys’ have guns then the ‘bad guys’ wont dare to attack them because they only have wooden stick as a weapon. That is just ridiculous. There is no point of having a gun if the criminal also has a gun. What we will have is a warzone everywhere!
Yeah its also funny when they bring up the Swiss which they always do. Just wait when the living standard of Switzerland dives to the bottom of the floor. They will have a little European Somalia there.
Yeah for example many if not most Iraqis had assault rifles under Saddam Hussein. But they obviously couldnt do crap against airplanes, tanks and heavy weapons.
And as you said the second amendment was made when all they had was stupid musket which couldnt be used to go on a rampage at malls.
I think in large part it’s due to the fact that anybody who is extremely depressed or has no self-esteem knows that they can go out and shoot a bunch of people and end up with their name and picture plastered across every tv screen and newspaper in the country tomorrow.
Many european countries publish such stories, but do not provide names and pictures of those responible for such tragedies. Is their any real reason that somebody in New York or L.A. needed to know the kids names in the Columbine Shootings?
Yep, the guy who just lost his job, got divorced, was constantly being picked on, had no self-esteem, or some other reason to fel like a nobody, and wajted to prove something to the world.
Yepp, you are right with this. But it’s a little different there: Every male citizen of Switzerland has to take part in military service and receives a gun at the end of it that he is said to store at home to defend the country in case of attacks against Switzerland.
And to quote your link:
So, since 2007 ammunition is not given out anymore and before 2007 the weapons and ammunition have been regularly inspected to prevent private usage. I think this is very different from the american way…
Btw, a lot of swiss people obviously still see this as a problem and (thanks to direct democracy) started a referendum in February to change the law on weapons in a way that only in few cases it is allowed to own firearms privately. (Corinne Rey-Bellet - Wikipedia)
I don’t know how it is handled in other european countries, but here in GER the faces of the criminal as well as the victims are not shown, neither are their names mentioned (just initials).
Interesting that you consider someone who owns a gun a freak! Why?
I own guns because I enjoy going out in the woods of TN and target shooting. I’m certainly not a freak…
Its also interesting that djandarial would attack bubblebob on the other side of the fence.
Just because bubblebob’s opinion differs from yours does not make him a freak either.
I posted this with the exact same title that I got in my email. I love my gun and in the USA we are guaranteed the right to own and bear arms. It doesn’t not say anything about breaking into my home at any hour, any time and administering a mental health exam. I do recall the lovely kind woman Janet Reno going about it the same way with the David Koresh group.
Those agents raided a private compound with little to no proof of any wrong doing. They executed over 80 persons, including women and children. They never proved they had mass caches of weapons. They couldn’t after they torched the place with tanks. That is government control, and its not the control I seek.
I have never encountered a crook or bad person entering my home, but low and behold if I did I should have the opportunity to defend myself. In my personal opinion that means I should be able to kill anyone looking to do my family harm.
Most gun crimes in the US are with weapons obtained criminally and without regard to any laws. It’s shameful to then blame the ones who abide by laws and place unreasonable search and seizure. I’m not sure if anyone is aware of this but often times numbers are skewed to falsely represent advocacy one way or the other.
Drunk Driving kills 17000 (US) Americans every year. What we fail to hear is that the guy walking down the street who just came from the bar and yet only had a few beers is walking home. After all he does not want a DUI. The driver of a car who has just suffered a heart attack crosses the sidewalk and kills the walker. Guess what? This is now considered a drunk driving kill. It is extremely misleading, had zero to do with drunk driving or even drunk person.
Its OK to disagree and be impassioned about it, but lets be civil. I posted the thread exactly as I received it which personally I found to be very tacky. I then followed it with some humor (except to me who finds the fact that anyone would regulate duck dander a bit odd) to show that I can find a lighter side to things too.
Keep debating, have fun and remember no guns in the pool.
Hey Bob, I think you are right, most gun owning Americans probably don’t own guns for reasons of shooting clays, or hunting, or even personal protection. I personally despise that we often fall to giving those reasons to excuse ourselves.
I think when it comes down to the personal level most of us own guns for the identity that owning them brings us. Many of us were taught gun ownership by our parents and they from their parents. For many more of us the right to own a gun was something we earned when we earned our citizenship. We came from places where guns were owned by the privileged and few. It is a thing of pride among both groups to be numbered among “those gun toting Americans”.
It is a touchable symbol of what being an American is all about. The idea that we are born with the right to own and defend property. The idea that no one can stop us from exercising our rights of assembly, of expression, of voting.
Yes, the idea that we can band together and overthrow an oppressor like our founders did in 1776 is dated to the point of absurdity. It is, however, a powerful way of identifying with our founders. We feel if we lose that identity, we will lose the other things that bind us together. After all, we are not a nation of heritage, or place, or language. The USA is a nation based on the idea of a constitution held in common by a populace that declared themselves into being. The Bill of Rights is our constitutional coding of the Declaration of Independence. We defend gun ownership because in doing so we defend our decision to exist as a nation.
The Snopes report cited at the beginning of this post says that the email is in error on several points including the physical and mental exams, and the home inspections.
Gun control has widespread support among Americans polled. I don’t have any problem with the bill as written. There are way too many guns in the USA and it’s ridiculously easy to get one in most parts of the country. Any nutcase can get one, and they frequently do.
The NRA seems to think not enough gun owners vote, or are even registered to vote … you’d think if they cared about their freedoms so much, they’d exercise that one above all. I think overthrow of government is supposed to a last resort.
