"Venting" my Adventures

Field Reports & Anecdotal Experience Women's Journals
661

Estratrienol is also known as Estra-5,7,9-triene-3b,17b-diol, or Hexahydroequilenin. It is a horse conjugated estrogen precursor.

LipidBank - Steroid(SST0079)

Humans don’t produce conjugated estrogens.

Human estrogens include:

Estrone - (3-hydroxy-13-methyl- 6,7,8,9,11,12,13,14,15,16- decahydrocyclopenta[a]phenanthren- 17- one)

Estradiol - (17β-​estra-​1,​3,​5(10)-​triene-​3,​17-​diol; also 1,3,5(10)-Estratriene-3,17β-diol)

Estriol - (1,3,5(10)-Estratriene-3,16


,17β-triol) Only produced in significant amount during pregnancy by the fetal liver from DHEAS; insignificant amounts produced in both men and women and men from androsterone precursor. The normal low level amount produced does not change with age (in men) or menopausal status (in women), but remains low and insignificant.

Estratetraenol - (8S,9S,13R,14S)-13-methyl-6,7,8,9,11,12,14,15-octahydrocyclopenta[a]phenanthren-3-ol;
also estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol) - Only produced during pregnancy.
**--------
**
Horse estrogens are a combination of non-conjugated and conjugated estrogens:

Estrone - the same as human, above

Equilin - 3-hydroxyestra-1,3,5,7-tetraen-17-one

Equilinin - 3-hydroxy-13-methyl-12,14,15,16-tetrahydro-11H-cyclopenta[a]phenanthren-17-one

Hexahydroequilenin (Estratrienol) - Estra-5,7,9-triene-3β,17β-diol

I’ve read that some of the conjugated estrogens become a very powerful free-radical in the human body, and this is problematic with taking horse steroids for hormone replacement therapy, which is the only estrogenic steroids approved for use in humans by the FDA for hrt. Go figure!

For other problems associated with conjugated estrogens from horses, please read here:

Equine Advocates, Inc. (a horse protection organization) - Information about horse rescue, Premarin, slaughter, carriage horses, hormone replacement

The picture below is from wiki

Diane

662

wow Diane, the system is evil, isnt it?

so help my uneducated mind here…
no one has figured out how to replace lost estrogen with plant material (more than likely killing free rads )
i know that plants only mimic estrogen,
but there has got to be a better way than stealing steroids from horses.

learning where these molecules originate
and how they affect the body internally
definately creates a nice foundation for how they might effect one externally ( even if they act differently, the fact that they act at all gives them reason to be).

thanks everyone for continous effort to clarify.

663

More about estrogens.

Estrogens are DNA transcription factors. They also act in a feedback manner to halt bone growth upon maturation in both men and women. Some estrogen also have pheromonal characteristics (EST).

For a detailed description of their gene binding and activity as known so far, go here:

Mechanisms of Estrogen Action – Nilsson et al. 81 (4): 1535 – Physiological Reviews

Diane

664

Uh, actually, there are methods to produce non-conjugated estrogens from plants. Many plants are very high naturally in estrogen, like yams, for example. The problem is that the compounding pharmacies that produce estrogens (identical to human estrogens) are systematically attacked by Wyeth and shut down by the FDA because of “inadequate regulation”.

News of the Day #285 - Wyeth petitions FDA to regulate compounding pharmacies; 40,000 respond
FDA Crackdown on Compounding Pharmacies
Wyeth Statement on the Citizen Petition Filed with the FDA Related to Bio-Identical Hormone Replacement Therapy
Medical News: FDA Cracks Down on Bio-Identical Hormones from Compounding Pharmacies - in Product Alert, Prescriptions from MedPage Today
Wall Street Journal Examines Wyeth’s Petition To FDA To Regulate Plant-Based Hormones; Response From Women

The bottom line is Wyeth would lose all of their market share if a safe, cheap, effective, bio-identical estrogen replacement were made available. And Wyeth has had the FDA in their pockets since the 1950’s, and they aren’t letting go of the billions they receive each year by damaging women’s heath with Premarin. It is very dirty business.

Diane

665

This may be a stupid question but its been bugging me for a while LOL.

So what does the epoxy stand for chemically before the estratrienol ?

Tisha

666

our biggest sellers at the herb farm were
black cohosh
chaste tree
wild yam

667

Naming conventions are pretty straight forward. They are meant to give you a clearer picture of the actual configuration of the atoms as they are grouped together in the molecule, and are named around the carbon atoms.

The straight chain carbon atom groups are named by the number grouped together: meth- (C1); eth- (C2); prop- (C3); but- (C4); pent- (C5); hex-(C6); hept-(C7); oct-(C8); non-(9); dec-(C10).

Carbons always form 4 covalent bonds. Where they are not specified all other bonds are to hydrogen. So, a C-C-C-C is also CH3-CH2-CH2-CH3, or butane.

Carbons that have an Oxygen attached directly to a carbon like this: -C-O(H) are alcohols (-ol). So -CH3OH is also -C-OH, or methanol group.

Carbons that have are double bonded to one Oxygen atom and have a single bond to another OH group are acids. The -O-C=OH group is known as a carboxyl group. All carboxyls are acids.

Carbons that have a Nitrogen with two Hydrogens attached to the Nitrogen are amines; -C-N(H2) is an amine.

Carbons that are attached in this configuration -C-O-C- are ketones (keto-).

Carbons that are -C-C-O-C-C- are ethers.

Carbons that have a double bond to Oxygen which is bonded also to another carbon are acyl groups. -C=O-C-.

Carbons that are bonded to 3 Oxygens are carbonates.

Carbons that are polar with this configuration -C-O-O-H groups are hydroxyls and are bases. So a hydroxy- in the name means that the terminal carbon is attached to an -O-O-H group. All hydroxyls are bases.

Carbons in this configuration -C-O-O-C- are peroxides. Peroxides can form free radicals.

It gets a little more complicated with complex organic molecules and molecules with rings, and the naming depends on the system of nomenclature you are using. Usually molecules are named by the IUPAC rules. IUPAC Nomenclature

Here’s an example of another molecule naming sytem, the von Bayer System: VB-1 to VB-5

Diane

668

Wyeth does dominate the market and has been a big bully in their campaign against compounding pharmacies.

However, there are several bioidentical estradiol products (transdermal patch, cream, gel, estring) manufactured by regular pharmaceutical companies and available in regular pharmacies by prescription.

Bioidentical Estrogen

  • Micronized estradiol/Estrace-Synthesized from soy and yam.
    - Estradiol/Alora-Synthetic.
  • Estradiol/Climara-Synthesized from soybeans.
    - Estradiol/Estraderm-Synthesized from Mexican yams.
  • Estradiol/Fem Patch-Synthetic.
    - Estradiol/Vivelle, Vivelle-Dot-Synthesized from Mexican yams.
  • Estradiol/Estring-Synthesized from Mexican yams.*

Same goes for bioidentical progesterone.

Bioidentical Progesterone

  • Micronized progesterone/Prometrium-Synthesized from Mexican yams.*
  • Micronized progesterone/Crinone-Synthesized from Mexican yams.
    - Progesterone/Progensa 20 (Allvia Manufacturer)-Synthesized from yams.
669

Holy crap ladies…that’s hardcore science :open_mouth: WOW…

670

Sorry! I got lost in a P91 fog.

3-hydroxy-13-methyl-12,14,15,16-tetrahydro-11H-cyclopenta[a]phenanthren-17*-one* - Equilin - is pictured below on the left. As you can see, there is a hydoxyl group attached on the left. This position is carbon 3.

It also has a a double bonded O at carbon 17, so it is a ketone (-one).

3-hydroxy-13-methyl-6,7,8,9,11,12,13,14,15,16- decahydrocyclopenta[a]phenanthren-17- one - Estrone - is pictured below on the right. It also has a hydroxyl group at position 3, and a double bonded O at position 17, and is also a ketone.

The difference between the two is the extra double bond C=C in the second ring of equilin and the position in space of the hydrogens. A double bond changes the shape of the molecule, as well as its functionality with regards to its free energy of activation. The free energy of activation determines how reactive a chemical compound is.

So, even though the two sound somewhat similar, are both contain a hydroxyl and a ketone groups at the same positions, and look very similar on paper, they are completely different.

Diane

Edit: Sorry, I need these pictures for another thread: Can someone identify this molecule: is it Meo-Est?

671

I get butterflies from p83, and have once or twice experienced hilarity. But not consistency like with p74. Actually p74 isn’t always ‘hilarious’ either but I’d certainly describe it as cool, social and fun all of which often lead to hilarity. Where you suggesting that p83 is in actual fact the derivative of A1 and not p74?

This science is very in depth, you ladies sure know your stuff.

672

no not necessarily.

i like P74 alot, but when i think of hilarity,
i think of when i spray the p83 and just looking at my friends that are also wearing it makeing me laugh.

i just want to laugh for no good reason.

it would be incredibly satisfying to know what some of these things are though, since some of us have been using them for some time.

there comes a time when the “fun” of not knowing
becomes replaced with boredom.
this isnt bad, but we crave more info, lol.

673

I remember wearing p83 two times and I was just sat there laughing and everyone thought I was drunk. I put it down to p83 just enhancing my already happy, giggly mood. No one else around me felt the gigglyness.

I don’t associate p83 with gigglyness though. I like to call p83 the flirt molecule. I get the need to touch things, myself, others, objects, anything. And also people start talking about sex or sexual subjects a whole lot. I don’t know how a molecule can cause two seeming unrelated things to happen, but happen they do, consistently. Touching and talking about sex makes it look like people are flirting, whether they are or aren’t. That’s why I call it the flirt molecule, even if it does create a bit of a mirage. p83 feels quite masculine to me, How do you feel about it? Would you consider it masculine also?

p74 on the other hand just makes me the centre of attention VIP. It’s cool and social, often gets people laughing. I wouldn’t call it hysterics per se but it’s the closest I’ve seen from a putative. p74 doesn’t feel masculine to me at all, quite a gender neutral anol type of molecule.

A name is just a name at the end of the day. Whether we call it by its putative number or a molecular name, it’s still just a name. But, for sure I know what you mean. For some reason it’s just intriguing to know which molecules are related to which. And how Androtics go about creating a putative. Do they play with existing pheromone molecules altering there structure slightly? Off course none of this helps us practically; it’s just interesting information to know.

674

wildflower,
i have to pretty much agree with all of your assessments.
i have only used p83 maybe 4-5 times, but im thinking id like to explore it more.
it does feel more masculine to me, and i would agree that p74 is nuetral.

i wore it (p74) in high doses when it first came out
and couldnt really figure out if it felt male or female.
the lack of leadership or aggression suggests feminine,
but i just wasnt feeling anything TAL or TAH-like.

p83 just plain felt masculine.

we could both be wrong though,lol.

as far as putatives go,
some of the putatives are molecules that are being tested to see if they do anything-
but i havent heard a statement so far to suggest that they are altered molecules.
that would be good to know.
for me it is practical to know the names of the molecules i am playing with.
some molecules work famously well with me, some not so much.
knowing the chemical name helps me to understand “groups” of molecules i should be exploring, and which ones i am better leaving alone.
conversion is applicable here as well.
im discovering that
harmless uplifting molecules sometimes convert into ones that disagree with me/other.
knowing this, i believe i could tailor my mixes better.

meh… or not. :roll_eyes:

while it is interesting to see any reaction at all,
i will not intentionally try a molecule that i know has the potential to bring-down/let down/depress.
i have seen that happen and wish to avoid it.

i do however find that kind of testing useful and important;
its just not for me personally.

675

while i always knew it was possible to give out too much reputation,
i didnt know it was possible to thank too much.

:slight_smile: now i know.

676

I haven’t really tried going above 40mcg of p74 yet. It felt so good at 30mcg, I just stuck there. I’d like to try a mega dose, as I’d originally planned one day though.

I have a few ways of looking at pheromones. This is by no means black and white, but I consider there to be two types of molecules:

  1. Molecules which evoke feelings, and from those feelings people make assumptions about you as a person.

  2. Molecules which say something about you as a person, and from those statement feelings are evoked. (These are the molecules which I’d consider to be either Masculine or Feminine. I don’t mean to say this category is exclusively Masculine or Feminine, just that most Masculine or Feminine molecules fall into this category.)

TAA, The Nol’s, p74, p86, etc all seem to evoke feelings or thoughts, rather than making a bold statement first. The perception of you may well be that you are trust worthy when wearing Bnol, but that perception comes after the feeling, not prior to. (The only molecule I’d put in this category which is masculine is A1, which isn’t totally masculine in feel, it just has a tendency to be found in larger quantities on men. I’ve been lead to believe so anyway.)

The other category, category 2, I’d say is home to the pheromones unique (in large quantities.) to a particular gender. rone or Anone for example make statements first and the feelings come secondary as a reaction to what the pheromones are saying about the wearer.

It’s a very basic way of looking at things, but it’s just a little trick I use when trying to figure out a new molecule or MX. p74 always felt noly to me, with a cool respect built it. I always felt it evoked feelings, so I put it in category 1 and labelled it gender neutral.

677

i have been in the presence of up to 120mu P74, and i DONT recommend it !!!

so much anxiety, i ended up getting talked-down by Jasmin on the phone for an hour,hahahahaha… ah, the good 'ol days!

when i first got it, i started with 20mu, and went out with tommyfever experimenting in town and brought up the dose incrementally over hours, until we reached 60mu each, 120 mu in the same space LOL.

hahhhrrible.

after 4 hours of getting my head straight again, we were planning our next adventure.

up to 25mu for me is perfect. 40mu is just ok, its just overkill for me.
anything more,
and there had better be some grateful dead music playing !

678

Lor, I had the same kind of reaction with IShine, except I also go neck cramps from my shoulders being so tight. Even after a shower it took a long time to come off of it. I assumed it was the TAA, but now I wonder if it wasn’t the P74. I also layered too much MX274 and P74 and though it wasn’t as bad as what you described (didn’t use quite so much) I did have to keep shrugging off anxiety.

Wildflower, I agree with your pheromone assessment above, excepting Androsterone. I feel euphoric around it. Maybe guy-to-guy it is thinking rather than feeling, but for this gal it is definitely a feeling kinda thang.

Diane

679

I think mega dosing on any mone can have adverse effects. Its important to try it out when experimenting but I don’t suggest people do it all the time. Even to much water can be bad for a person.

P74, I don’t need a lot. 15 t0 25 mcg gives me the effect I want without changing my own personality. It does feel feminine but this one is hard to tell with. Comfort, contentness, rapport, bonding, happy energy is what I get with it.

P83 I adore because its so multifaceted and bold. Depending on the result I am looking for I will use 15 to 50 mcg but usually stick to the low end.

It is more masculine feeling then feminine. This one effects how I feel more then any other molecule I tested and I have to keep myself in check depending on my inner emotions.

I never get hilarity from it, but I never hold back joy naturally and tend to giggle and laugh a lot so maybe I don’t notice that.

Could be the release of inhibitions. Perhaps for some reason people naturally hold back the feeling of laughter due to personality or environment and P83 can help let it go. I do find the emotion has to originally be there for it to be released though.

I think when we say it helps a person get past inhibitions we all naturally think sexual but P83 is so much more. People are not just inhibited sexually. Inhibition can just be restricting emotion or freedom of expression. I find it can help us release that which we hide from the rest of the world. It helps us release whatever we are feeling at the time be it laughter, joy, sensuality or even anger.

I find it to be very expressive physically and mentally. I find it very sensual which is a big part of my natural personality that I hold back in certain environments and I think a lot of people do hold that back.

I find men and women peacock more, flirt more, touch more when I use it. They let go more. It helps me clearly see their true nature.

There is one thing that I have encountered a few times though that makes me be more careful with it. Its very strength is also its weakness. What happens when the person using it or exposed to it is holding back something dark… anger rudeness pain. P83 will let it rip and I think this is why we see so many different reports.

I feel you have to know what it is your holding back before you can enjoy this one on yourself and be prepared for others to take off their mask and be excepting of what you find.

I agree not knowing the chemical names does limit us quite a bit but I understand from a research stand point how its important for Androtics. At the same time it makes us dependant on them which is a good thing financially for them but for long time testers like Lor and myself can eventually hold us back.

I have been checking out some of the American chemical companies online and heading in the same direction as Lor. I thought of having my brother test every molecule to tell me what it is, which he really doesn’t have time for and can run expenses up in his lab but I am having a good time looking on my own and exploring it right now. I may have to do that with P83 though LOL Either that or stock up on a life time supply here LOL

I am sure you can all tell its my favorite molecule. :smiley:

Tisha

680

Tisha
I agree,ODing on everything is definately not something i want to do.
I dont think there is anything i have OD’s on that i was happy i did,LOL :smiley:

When newer putatives first came out, no one knew the threshold.
Thats what i mostly did-
grab the new putatives and learn thresholds.

P74 was easy to OD on because the effects of the molecule seemed benign… but like you said, too much of anything and neurotransmitters got eaten up madly at 60mu.

P83 is hilarity for me, and not in an opening-up kind of way.

more like i just smoked pot-
not the relaxing kind
but the oh-my-god-my-face-wont-stop-smiling laugh-for-no-reason kind.

i mean, its really weird.
i think like p86,
it requires acclimating to.
i think after acclimation you can begin to use it intentionally.

i want to explore knowing what i am using
and although i have a bad taste for some companies out there
(less than great experiences and my money is limited)
i feel wanting to know what cetain molecules do specifically
is guiding me to find other things.

and then maybe i can come back to putatives and experimones with more wisdom to know what is what :wink:

a minature lab kit
with maybe 10mls of different pheromones (mostly female of course)
unscented
at relatively low doses (maybe 10mu to start)
would be invaluable.

it would be
like starting this hobby brand-new
knowing what i am working with.

it would breathe new life into experimentation.

meh, maybe im the only one lol.

if i were still working at the bar,
id consider paying someone myself to cook me up a kit :slight_smile: