GAH! I meant that Allah and God are both words that refer to the same deity. The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all refer to the same deity. “Yahweh”, “God”, and “Allah” are the exact same deity. 
“God” “Allah” Whatever you chose to call Him, or Her for that matter. I’m not going to get into an argument with you over history and religion. That is what our friendly neighborhood troll would like. I realize there are radical Christian groups here as well as radical Muslims over there. I don’t need a lesson or reminder about Waco, the Crusades, or the Nazi’s.
“Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord.”
I hope you didn’t think I was aiming my brief dissertation on Nazism at you Sugar.
The whole point of Al-Qaeda’s escalating attacks on the U.S. (embassies, Cole etc.) was to provoke the U.S. to attack a muslim country. Al-Qaeda wanted all muslims to rise up and unite to form a new Caliphate stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific. This is the same emotional response leaders have used for millenia to manipulate the masses (be it religion, Nazi racism, Italian nationalism/fascism, the class warfare of socialism and communism).
They would have continued to attack the U.S. and increased the severity had there been no response. The attacks were well planned and well executed. The effectiveness of the U.S. response surprised Al-Qaeda who expected them to get bogged down in a Soviet type occupation. Al-Qaeda was almost wiped out at Tora Bora but the Pakistanis let them through their border. The reasons for Iraq were much more complicated than that.
Personally, I was driving to work after the first attack but before the second and I heard it on the radio. As I was supposed to cross the border that day I eventually went home to avoid the hassles.
No, Chads! Absolutely not!
I would argue that the reasons for Iraq were far less complicated and far more sinister.
Afghanistan I agree with - The ruling party of Afghanistan sponsored what was essentially an act of war against America. Yes, a great deal of Afghan people died in the response, but such is war.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and shouldn’t be included in the discussion… The government of the day used 9/11 as an excuse to garner support for the Iraq war.
I will agree with Reaper Vai on the subject of the atomic bombs in Japan - The war was well on it’s way to being over by the time the bomb was dropped. Yes, without the bomb the war would have dragged on… but the casualties would have continued to be mostly military (Japan’s part of WWII had relatively few civilian casualties…)
The act of dropping the bomb on a civilian population is comparable to 9/11 - America could have just as easily dropped the bomb NEAR a major Japanese center.
At the very least, the second bomb was not required… Japan was well on its way to surrendering after the first one.
Finally I would like to say that all acts of aggression against civilian populations (or mostly civilian) are a complete disrespect of human life.
America should not be proud of dropping the Atomic Bomb, Muslims should not be proud of 9/11, Germans should not be proud of the Holocaust and Israelies should not be proud of the casualties in Gaza - Those are ALL black marks on human history and should universally be remembered as such.
As with most anywhere in the world, everything is Great until you pray to an unseen all-powerful deity other than the one I pray to.
Or something like that.
I would enjoy reading your arguments to that effect if you get a chance to post them. The whole world, especially the muslim world is intertwined. Iraq may not have been a direct and obvious participant in 9/11 but I believe the war was fallout from 9/11. I’m not saying an invasion should or shouldn’t have been launched, just saying without 9/11 it probably wouldn’t have happened.
The Iraq war was justified on the basis on disarming Iraq’s WMD’s. We all know how many WMD’s were found in Iraq (0).
I’m not going to go into conspiracy theories as to why the Bush government decided to go into Iraq. But it is safe to say that the American people were told a lie to get there (at the very least the government represented bad or outdated intelligence as being 100% - It is hard to believe that they didn’t know whatever intelligence they may have had which indicated WMD’s in Iraq was sketchy at best).
Iraq ties into 9/11 simply because the American people were scared after the event. I remember hearing the news reports about the shit that was happening to anyone who looked brown (muslim or indian) in certain parts of the country. The government said “Look Iraq is going to shoot a nuke at us, we need to stop them before they do” and instead of acting rationally and questioning their governments decision to enter into a unilateral war the American people let the invasion happen. Fear causes people to act irrationally - 9/11 fear caused the American people to act irrationally when presented with “The Iraqi Danger.”
This fear allowed the government to get away with invading first, asking questions later.
I mean really… Iran is currently significantly more dangerous than Iraq ever was - They are producing enriched Uranium, medium distance missiles and have shown their disdain for the Western world repeatedly. Don’t tell me that the American government shouldn’t be afraid of Iran selling enriched Uranium to terrorist groups (The leader of Iran all but said he hates America in his recent diatribe).
Yes American isn’t at war with Iran… Don’t say it’s because they are trapped in Iraq either - America was committed to Afghanistan when they entered Iraq and upon entering the new war essentially left Afghanistan for the rest of the world to deal with.
So you went to war with Iraq for the inexistent WMD’s the bad intelligence said they possessed when the country was afraid.
At the same time you aren’t going to war (you are following the internationally accepted political protocols) with Iran despite it’s commonly accepted production of WMD materials.
What is different? A people capable of being fed any threat due to fear and an underlying motivation that had nothing to do with the threat of WMD’s.
Sadly, Reaper_vai’s view is held by a significant minority of ordinary citizens in many countries, including countries that are our “friends”. This is particularly true after the actions and views expressed by our previous administration. ****
Wrlprchnx: I would recommend you read the book “America’s Secret War” by George Friedman. You might not agree with every thing in it and even if you agree with everything in it you might still not agree with the decision to go to war in Iraq. However, I think you will admit it was more complex than a search for WMD.
Mtnjim: What actions and views do to think caused this thinking?
I’m just on my way out, but I’ll get back to you in the AM.
I was in school.We were about to watch a video and the news was on the chanel she saw it and called the office freaking out.They pulled us into the hall ways and told us that we had went to war.I was young and didn’t get it,our parents had to pick us up we weren’t allowed to leave the school alone.
I’ve nothing but time.
Evidently I was unclear - I think the governments intentions were more complex than WMD’s. Just that WMD’s were used as an excuse.
IMO if a government needs to hide its true intentions from its own people than there is something inherently wrong with those intentions.
Just like if I have to hide my true intentions from someone in a relationship, there is a good chance that I am hiding those intentions because they aren’t in the best interest of the person I’m hiding those intentions from (or my intentions are unethical)
If the government had other reasons to go to war they should have manned up and made it clear why they wanted to attack Iraq… This is part of the reason why the invasion brought so much hate towards America - It was pretty obvious that your government was hiding their true intentions, and you can’t trust someone (or a country) who hides the true intention behind their actions.
I highly disagree with you on this. I’ve disagreed with many things our government has done or hasn’t done. There is little I can do to change this. We have the third largest population in the world, do you really think that everything the government does is approved by everyone? You must be delusional if you believe that. 300 million people can’t agree with everything our government does.
In my opinion, our government has done actions that are terrorist actions. It’s all how you view it. I don’t try and justify what our government has done when I don’t believe it’s right. But I do believe certain people DO need to die. There are psychopaths and sociopaths who have no problem murdering countless people for their own goals and desires and will stop at nothing to do so. Those people you cannot reason with. For them, the only way to stop them is death. Period. Do you really think reasoning with Hitler would have stopped him? For you people who believe that killing is not a good solution either, I think you need to look at reality. There are very twisted people out there and their only language and means of communication is violence.
Anyhow, as to where I was when I heard, I was on my way to school when I heard it over the radio. I thought it was a joke. Until I got to school and we were sent back home. JPL is 2 blocks away from my school and was considered a target because of its affiliation with NASA. I think my friends and I congregated at a friend’s house until we saw the footage. It was then the reality and seriousness of it sunk in.
I see we were on the same page, just miscommunicating. However surely you would recognize the logistcal problems of clearly stating such a complex and nuanced situation. Especially the parts that couldn’t be stated(ex. tacit threat to Saudi Arabia).