we report, you decide
Could a pick-up artist be charged with rape? - U.S. news - Crime & courts - msnbc.com
I think there should be some milder crime to describe sex through gross deception or psychological pressure. Like there is manslaughter to murder.
This man clearly deserves punishment, even though the woman consented. Also consider someone lying about HIV status, transsexual pretending to be a natural woman, a man buying a fake engagement ring. Those things are serious and just wrong to lie about. But they are also a different sort of crime.
It would really depend. An arab getting a jewish girl by claiming to be jewish is pretty underhanded and exploits what could be a serious moral issue for her. In that example case he was pretending to be a different type of person philosophically and morally. I’m not going to pretend I’m a buddist to seduce an asian girl. As for lying about your job/income…I don’t do it and I don’t condone it, but if it’s a factor that can make or break the deal when it comes to sex occurring or not well the victim is hardly that innocent is she? If we look at the concept through a truly unbiased gender neutral lens it becomes a matter of an IMPLICATION of potential benefits for something given.
In the case of a guy pretending to be a millionaire, the female makes the assumption that having sex with him will be a financially profitable investment. However, since as we are so often and rightly told, buying drinks, gifts, paying for dates etc does not obligate the woman to consent to sex, it is more often than not assumed by the male and allowed to stay that way by the female until such time as she decides to move on. Does this mean that a man can legally force a woman to reimburse him for money spent if sex doesn’t occur?
As for psychological pressure, that’s a slippery slope right there. Begging, can be argued to be psychological pressure…can you imagine a guy doing time for saying “oh come on baby pleeeeease?” ?Yeah they’ll put that poor shlub right next to the guy that jumps on a woman from behind some bushes and holds a knife to her throat during the act. Likewise an ultimatum..for example stating or even implying that the relationship will end if sex doesn’t occur. Any halfway decent lawyer can portray this as “emotional blackmail”, so does this mean that even though a man’s needs might not be being met he’s obligated to stay in the relationship?
Hell my most common tactic for bypassing LMR is to play hard to get and approach the situation from the frame that she wants to have sex with me even more than I do with her. Suppose she buys into it and sex occurs and then later or on some other occasion she finds some of my PUA books or video’s on my comp? Can I be charged with rape for using psychological trickery to make her only THINK she wanted to have sex?
It gets silly after a while. I knew a girl that was raped…not the radical gender feminist definition where all heterosexual sex is considered an act of rape (yes there are feminists that claim this) but the REAL kind of rape, battered, bruised and taken in spite of terrified screams for them to stop. And the very notion that the definition of rape can be so flexible as to be determined as to how the woman feels about things after the fact, is an insult to women that were truly raped. I’ll agree that false representation of the facts can be charged as fraud. But keep in mind that will require the plaintiff to confess on the witness stand under oath that she expected to gain financially from having sex with the guy.
As for the other hypotheticals I mentioned, if a man gets into a relationship expecting sex with a certain degree of frequency and he’s not getting it then he can and should leave and look elsewhere, if the woman has sex reluctantly in order to keep him, then it’s a choice she made. Two people have standards, if their standards don’t meet up, then one has to choose to either concede or move on.
Begging?..yeah if that’s rape then rape is responsible for about 80% of the current human population existing today…men have been doing that shit since the dawn of time and while women have found it annoying, they never saw fit to lump it in the same category as fucking rape.
With regard to legitimate PUA techniques, the truth of the matter is it depends on the PUA’s “post game”. Basically I can spend an evening hitting attraction switches and DHV’s with a woman, throw in some negs and IOD’s and basically use every standard tactic in the PUA dictionary until SHE has initiated sex. If I make her my girlfriend, great. If I make it abundantly clear that I’m not looking for anything serious and she feels the same…also great. If however she’s wanting and expecting me to be her prince charming that she can spend happily ever after with and gets upset when that doesn’t happen?..yeah time to get some soap on a rope I guess.
Radman is right on the money here, in my opinion.
I look at the situation with a guy telling a woman he has money, a nice car, etc. and eventually sleeping with her as a hustler getting out-hustled. Some women are actually looking for a man who is responsible and financially stable (among other things) for LTR reasons and I understand that but that type of woman is going to notice that the guy who said he’s in a 5 series is really driving a Taurus before she gives him any. The rest are purely money orientated. Any woman that accuses a man of rape in that situation should be prosecuted for prostitution because that’s essentially what she’s implying. It’s not illegal to lie in most situations.
The psychological angle is even more BS…people try to manipulate others all day every day. Companies, the government, salesman, etc. Women in these situations just need to learn from their mistake and move on rather than trying to throw felony accusations around. Sometimes you just have to take an L and get over it.
I find it really disrespectful to actual victims of rape and other forms of sexual abuse when these types of accusations are made.
I’m seriously confused here… the article uses “pick-up artist,” but never really gives an example of a real pick-up artist doing his thing… out of all the materials I’ve read, watched or listened to, not one has told me to lie. In fact, all of them have taught to not pretend to be a strong man, someone with their shit together, but become the man that would attract a woman.
Am I lying when I neg a chick to make her think I’m not interested? No. I’m flirting…just like she’s not lying when I can feel her checking me out but when I turn my head she quickly looks away and acts as if she was doing something else.
I don’t see using pheromones to attract women, as lying either. Just like a woman applying makeup, perfume or using a push-up bra to stimulate my senses isn’t lying to me either.
Wow, life is a game and should be played as such…have fun. People need to quit being so damn serious about everything…and as TheBoogieMan said, this really is a slap in the face to real victims of rape and sexual abuse.
NEVER - Rape is forced non-consensual sex
DECEPTION is at best FRAUD
The expansion of the definition of rape is disgusting considering how ridiculous the justice system currently treats the crime. Anonymity for the accuser, no right to question the accuser’s statements, no right to address the accusers past history - Hell, on a number of universities a rape accusation can find a man kicked out of his place of residence and kicked out of his classes with no criminal trial AND no evidence (Se Brown University)
Remember, a guy who lies to get laid is VERY different from a guy who roofies a girl or violently attacks and sexually assaults a woman. Allowing liar to become rapist is a slippery slope - Sure it is fairly easy to think of some pretty terrible lies… the problem is that once you have a law on the books which says lying = rape how long do you think it will be before an enterprising DA decides that making an example of some guy for “enhancing” his income on his online dating profile will get that DA a bunch more votes.
Aw dude, so funny you put this up there…I read this on Cnn a while back and was shocked! I thought jeez! IF there is such a thing as rape by deception we’re all going to jail!!! lol…Please this is nuts…I mean the way they put it, then every college dorm in america is a concentration camp.
Reality is probably a slow, steady cultural drift… behavior that was considered normal, OK, no big deal 40 years ago is now politicised or partially criminalized… that or seen as socially unacceptable… words also change their meanings through evolution… colleges and universities have always been on the cutting edge of “enlightened” new interpretations of behavior, esp. sexual behavior… we didn’t have GHB or roofies back in the day, getting drunk and getting crazy was normal though…
Rape is 95% of the time a act of violence or control. The rapist doesn’t try to convince you, manipulate you, beg you, wooo you or use PUA tactics on you. He simply takes and usually it is not about the act of sex but the feeling of power they get from forcing.
When PUA techniques are used or pheromones for that matter the choice is not taken away from the individual. No still means no. Its the universal code word so to speak. Both men and women know this. The women still has a choice. If a girl chooses to willingly sleep with a guy they hardly know even though he has used PUA techniques (which have been used since the beginning of time by both men and women) then she is partly responsible for the outcome.
You can turn this scenario around as well. Suppose a women wears provocative cloths and flirts with a guy because she thinks he has money or is just looking for attention. However she doesn’t care about him and when she has gotten the attention she seeks and spent a great deal of his money she blows him off. Can the girl be charged with larceny ?
No of course not because he made a choice and its the same with men using PUA techniques. Yes both actions speak volumes about the character, integrity, honor and honesty of the person but its not a crime.
I am not totally disagreeing with Tacitus though. I think many men have gone to far with using PUA techniques especially those who use canned material and incorporate all of the techniques instead of using a few to enhance who they are. They have lost there true identities because of it. They are unbalanced and have become fake and un-genuine but the same can be said for women who take advantage of men as well.
Those qualities once lost are harder to retrieve. What you put into the world comes back to you eventually. JMO
Tisha
I got a practical introduction to the jurisprudence of rape when I sat on a jury panel for a guy who had (to the best of our understanding) fully consensual, and seemingly fully enjoyable sexual intercourse with a mentally retarded adult woman.
The state’s case rested on the theory that the woman, who was NOT the plaintiff in this case, (the state itself had assumed the role of plaintiff) fundamentally lacked the capacity to make informed consent… the woman was presumed to lack the mental resources to make an informed decision and fully grasp the potential consequences of her actions.
From the prosecutor’s perspective, ANY source of incapacity, whether mental limitation, intoxication, or physical duress was sufficient to remove the element of informed consent… "simple consent" alone was not deemed sufficient to qualify as consensual conduct… which is why minors can not be held to contractual agreements in most cases… or you can’t get granny high on oxycontin and jagermeister and have her change her will…
Anyway, this turned out to be a hot area of contention amongst legal scholars, should the mentally retarded be permitted to engage in recreational sexual intercourse, and if so, with whom, and under what circumstances ?
A heck of a lot of jurisprudence IS figuring out where the lines are, and what the “tests” are that definitively explain where the agreed upon line is… or was…there definitely have been a sufficient number of buyer’s remorse cases where what he believed to be the case and what she believed to be the case seriously diverged at some point…
I well recall watching Dr. Phil or somebody like him, back in the 1990s, host a show in which a young man had been falsely accused or rape, convicted by a jury of his peers, sentenced to hard time, and imprisoned for about 6 years in the state pen… he (at the time they taped the show) looked like a pretty together, stable, intelligent white dude and she looked like a reasonably together, slightly overweight, intelligent white chick… nothing creepy, Jerry Springer, visibly off about either of them…
Anyway… he’d been serving his time, life basically over, and she gets religion or a whale of a guilt pang, goes to the DA’s office, recants the whole thing, says she made up every damn word of it, and throws herself at the mercy of the court.
The guy is exonerated, his record expunged, the state profusely apologizes, and the story reaches the tv producers… so they had the both of them on the stage, his group waaayyy over on one side, and her group waayyy over on the other side and Phil or whoever in the middle, who is flabbergasted and asks the girl, now woman… why, why in the world did you make up this story, and stick to it all the way through a trial, what were you thinking ?
And all the woman says, with a simple, unemotional, untroubled expression, like you were talking about the freshness of the bread that day, “I don’t know”… “you mean you don’t have any idea of why you did this, none ???”, … response: “no sir, I really don’t know”… not I was pissed, not he said he loved me, not he got me pregnant and dumped me, not he used my credit cards… nuttin… just “I dont know, to this day I don’t know”…
Wow… holy criminy… couldn’t even think of a reason… I tells U this, I got one heck of a lot more careful after seeing that…
Honestly, if you are going to show a report from a biased news organization then at least get their slogan right. That is Fox News’ slogan.
Anyway, I agree with Tisha completely. It works both ways. A guy can lie about his finances or status just as a lady can flirt and dress provocatively. It is my opinion, and JUST my opinion, but when it comes to sex, I see guys as the weaker ones. We just can’t help it. Through thousands of years of instinctual programming, we crave sex just as much as food. We are weak when it comes to beating sexual temptation. It’s hard for some women to understand why a guy would cheat, but because we are programmed to mate with everything we can, we fall prey to this instinct.
This is why we go to such great lengths to “get the girl”. You know that every guy who came here to try pheromones out simply wanted to attract more women. That’s why there is such a VAST array of websites for pick up artists, and attracting women in some fashion. I only found one website talking about female pick up artists. It is overwhelmingly a guy thing.
I guess I’m digressing. The point is that as long as you are not forcing someone to have sex with you, and this includes if the person is passed out or not conscious (just because they can’t physically say no doesn’t mean you can have sex) , then use whatever tactics you deem fit to get your desired outcome. Some states by law legally say you cannot consent to sex after so many drinks, but to be honest I find this to be bullshit. You can still say no, but when you are drunk, sex seems to sound so much better at the time. 
I will admit I have been taken advantage of by girls when I’m drunk, but in the end I still said YES. It’s just we are the weaker sex in regards to that.
Anyway, nice discussion!
regarding the drinks issue…as you stated, passed out is passed out and not even arguable as far as being rape…but conscious and stupid is not an excuse. If “Your Honor I was drunk and would never have consented if I was sober so it’s rape” is considered a valid argument then women should not be allowed to consume alcohol.
Now of course even proposing the notion would warrant a very hostile response from women and womens groups around the nation. But if you know that booze makes you make bad choices and you choose to imbibe then you’re responsible for the choices you make…same as a drunk driver. A guy hits a car with a family and kills everyone inside his being drunk makes him incapable of making a responsible choice, but this was known before hand so he’s still held responsible.
Now as I said, a woman that’s not conscious enough to actually say yes or no, much less take off her own clothes unaided is off limits. Hell I’ve gotten consent while she was drunk and then she passed out like 5 minutes later and while technically she did agree…dude I’m a bit of a prick at times but come on, really? of course I just left.
While I agree to this to a certain extent even with instinct pushing you, men have the ability to think clearly and say no… this is right and this is wrong. Its what separates you from other primates LOL 
I dont see instinct as a excuse for lack of character when it comes to a man cheating or having sex with a women they know is under the influence of alcohol and cant make a rational decision.
As for having sex with a drunk women. I see this as the fault of both parties. The man for not having the integrity to understand that the women is unable to make a rational decision and the women for being stupid enough to put herself in that situation. Its not rape though.
I never drink to the point of drunk and the few times I have indulged more then I should have I have been with people I know very well and trust. I would never incapacitate myself in a place where people with lack of character could prey on me and if by some chance I did and something happened it would be just as much my responsibility as theirs.
My grandmother used to say “If you lay on the train tracks long enough eventually the train will come, dont blame the train when it runs you over”
I find this to be a totally different area of the law.
The mentally retarded person is usually born this way they didnt choose to be handicap or “incapacitated” or put themselves into that situation. I am sure there are those who prey on them. Its not your average guy that will pursue a retarded person though. I think its not a black and white issue , there are to many grey areas. Each case would have to be looked at individually. Some mentally handicap people are rational enough to decide if sex is right for them and some are not. I dont see this as a PUA issue though. PUA’s are not targeting easy prey they are targeting the harder to get girls.
I dont agree… The line is very very clear on “rape” especially to those who have truly been raped by a predator. I think a lot of people try to fit a square peg into a round hole though. They make a stupid decision and dont want to take responsibility for their decision so they point the finger at someone else. I think there should be another word or judicial phrase used in cases such as the one with the women who had sex and said it was rape later. I guess there is…they use Date rape now which is not always as clear as rape. They are two different things.
I totally agree, great example. I know there are those who probably think I am being insensitive but to me stupid is as stupid does.
Remember when Mike Tyson got in trouble for “raping” that girl at some beauty pageant. I dont particularly like Mike but I didnt see that as all his fault. The girl willingly went to his suite with him. Stupid is as stupid does. This was not date rape. I am not saying Mike was right but situations like this are not rape in my opinion. If you put you hand in a gators mouth dont cry when he bites it. Now if she was walking down the hall and he grabbed her and dragged her into the room that would be rape. Then I think the gator should be killed.
Date rape occurs and it can be as devastating to a women as rape but there is a certain control the women has over this situation. The first one they seem to forget is the clear and concise NO. I have talked to some women who have been date raped and when I asked did you say no they will say …well sort of. There is no sort of.
Dont put yourself in a situation where it can occur with a guy you just met or just started dating. Meet in public places at first. Get to know the person. Learn to defend yourself.
Men this benefits you as well because you dont want to be on the other end of someone excusing you of doing something you didnt.
Its no guarantee of course but unfortunately its the world we live in. Dont think for a minute it cant happen to you.
As Tacitus mentioned … “I got one heck of a lot more careful after seeing that…”
Tisha
The legal line on rape has become VERY muddy Tisha - If you are a man living in Bar Harbor Maine the line has become - Do you have a crazy ex-wife (legitimately bat-shit insane) who will accuse you of rape after it looks like you are going to win the kids in the custody trial? If so the D.A. will attempt to prosecute you with the same ferocity as a guy caught punching joggers and dragging them into the bushes… Actually with more ferocity - The D.A. doesn’t need to ignore exculpatory evidence to convict the second guy. YouTube- Prosecutorial Misconduct of Assistant DA Mary Kellett and the Bar Harbor Maine Rape Hysteria
Anybody remember this fiasco ?
you go girl!
Stories like these ought to put a minimal sense of caution into a man’s subconscious…
and now, the shoe on the other foot, police (state) it seems doesn’t like being recorded either !
I agree that the use of “rape” has been grossly skewed to include acts that no one in their right mind would call rape. Unfortunately, there’s not a lot of common sense to be had in the US nowadays.
If people want to see true rape of a woman, they should check out Islamic controlled countries and see how women are treated there. Women there get TRULY raped all the time. It is sad to see it being skewed to include other things. Also, there are some false accusations by women claiming to be raped.
Let’s look at Kobe Bryant’s case. It’s Kobe Bryant for goodness sake! He could absolutely have any woman in the world he desired. Knowing this, why would Kobe rape anyone? He could have anyone! It’s simply because his accuser had consensual sex and accused him of rape to try and get a piece of his financial pie.
This doesn’t mean real rape doesn’t happen. I wouldn’t have any arguments against removing the rapist’s genitals and locking him up for the rest of his life, where he would be repeatedly raped. But let’s make sure it is truly forced sex.
And oddly enough, in some instances a woman can rape a man. I’m not sure how she could overpower him, but I have heard of it happening. Though to be quite honest, I don’t know any guy that would say it’s truly rape.
Interesting responses as always. I particularly like Tisha’s common sense response, as opposed to a more feministic view.
Now not to say that Kobe is innocent or guilty but ability to get sex is irrelevant in genuine rape issues. The nature of sex is not about the sex itself but the power involved. The lack of consent IS the turn on. Many rapists are functionally impotent in a normal sexual situation, only able to achieve erection during violent force. Kobe’s wealth, looks and celebrity status might make him “high value” enough that he could pick from hundreds of women who would get on their knees and beg him to have sex with them, but if his brain is wired to be that of a rapist, the appeal of exerting power over another human being and taking it against her will would still excite him.
In short rape and sex are two totally different things and the ability to get one, does not effect the desire for the other.
Maybe I should have been more clear. To a person who has been truly raped the lines are very clear. Most of the old timers I am close to here know I was abducted by a rapist when I was 15 so I am all to familiar with the judicial system. My case was cut and dry really because of the circumstances and the condition I was found in. I know the Law has attempted to muddy those lines but frankly I think the judicial system and lawyers make most things to complicated. Its not really about justice anymore. Its not about people. Its about winning. It has become big business.
(On what I revealed above…I have made my peace with it so please do not become sympathetic or tip toe around me. It just ticks me off. Other then being a witch, which I was before this happened, I am a perfectly average female.)
Well… maybe a little above average but thats conceit LOL (snort) 
I am not belittling what happened to the people mentioned in some of the above links and examples but I think law should come up with a phrase that clearly defines the difference between violent forced sex (rape) and those shady areas. One that clearly defines the difference. One that does not carry the stigma of the word rape in it.
Something we talked about in another thread is a good example of this.
A 19 year old guy, (I think he was in Texas) had a relationship with a 16 year old girl. They were going out for a few years and some altercation happened that caused the 16 year old’s mother to call the police. By the time the police arrived it was all worked out but they arrested the guy for statutory rape. He didnt go to prison but had to do community service and be on probation. He will forever be on the sex offender list under rapist. He has since married this girl and they have two kids. He cant bring them to school. He cant go to school plays. He cant attend his sons sporting events.
The same can happen to men whose wives claim they were raped by them or boyfriends who break it off with a girl and she wants to get back at them. Its not right. These accusations can effect a man for the rest of his life even if not convicted. That in itself warrants that a clear line be drawn by people and in the law.
I know we are getting off the subject of PUA’s being labeled as rapists but I am passionate about this subject. I apologize for that. Most feminists dont like me much LOL. Some have asked me how I can have the attitude I do having been through what I have but its having gone through it that has allowed me to see it clearly. IMO most feminist look through the eyes of prejudice. Equality respect kindness compassion etc etc should be given to all people (at least until they prove they dont deserve it) regardless of sex not just because your female or male.
Tisha
Give me a break.. (and this will be short…)
The article described an AFC; not a PUA! …actually, this guy is a ‘LYING LOW-LIFE’!
Everytime a PUA does, what a PUA does; He, in ‘NO WAY’ needs to disrespect, or lie to a woman, about ANYTHING, so she would want to sleep with him!
PERIOD!!
Sure he bombs out sometimes, but he is confident enough to take it gracefully, and it never makes a liar out of him, infact; it only makes him MORE confident!
And everybody else who has made a realistic statement, about how, both men & women, both do their own ‘thing’ to try and attract someone, I commend you on your maturity and honesty;
But as honest and true as those statements are, this article has nothing to do PUAs and least of all, at all to do with ‘courting’.
This ‘idiot’, (that was busted) not only, needed to pretend to be someone he is not (because he is a cowering liar), but he did what he did, in the country and in the culture that he did that in, knowing full well about the possible controversy of what he did, would cause.
This Low-life realy is an idiot, and he should forcefully, be pulled out of the gene pool!
This guy did what he did, to ‘insult’ the woman… And thus, this Low-Life POS deserves what he got.
**PUA’s love women; not insult them! **
In no way would a PUA ever promise anything to a woman, (because you don’t need to do that with the right techniques) Nor would he ever leave a woman in a state of humiliation for what she had done with him.
If anything, He’ll try to be sure she experiences something quite substantial with him, and it is definitely understood, whether it’s a one-off situation or not, but either way they know…
So tell me…
How can a woman say she was deceived, when (1)…she is experiencing all the wonderful things she can experience by having a one-niter with an experienced lover;
and (2)…convinced she was actually interested in him, also, for the possibility of a hot night rolling around under the covers??
That is respectful consent!
That lady in the Middle East, however, you could probably argue she was selfish about her preferences.
But, there is no doubt she was defeated, and spat-on by a LYING Low-Life, and that is the major difference in this situation.
…Just my 2 sprays…