is he gay?

Sure.. they make such emphasis about it in fact…

I will agree this far: Gaydar is sometimes nothing more than innate curiosity making a connection …

When someone claims to have “perfect gaydar” you have to appreciate that they are, in essence, telling a joke. (Just as when someone claims to be perfectly accurate as a psychic; or claims they can throw a bulls-eye at darts every time.)

Here’s the twist that I put to the whole Gaydar question: Who cares? In other words, would your life be better if you could see a little sign over everyone’s head that indicated with 100% accuracy their sexual orientation at that point in time? Would it be even better still if you could also see a meter (0 -10) that indicated how much sexual attraction that person felt toward you realtime?

Sure, there may be occasions when a homosexual wants to be able to speak candidly with someone who’s “been there and done that.” Police sometimes seek out other police to talk through something that civilians are unlikely to understand, and celebrities have a set of problems in common. We’re deliberately here on PheroTalk because we expect to find others who’ve shared our experiences in this arena.

But who can afford to sort through the entire world and only talk to people who are sexually attracted to them? (This has the potential to be hugely deflating to the ego; could make a good movie.) It’s really a bit absurd. (Equally absurd as deciding to not ever have anything to do with someone who doesn’t use/appreciate pheromones.)

Perhaps, for some people, that is the only feasible way.

Setting aside the epistemological question of what is or is not knowable about anything… for others of us, there are other ways. Direct observation of behavior, for example: I’m pretty comfortable ‘knowing’ that someone is attracted to members of the same sex if I see that person physically engaged in sexual acrivity with someone of the same sex. (Oh, yes, it’s possible that he’s doing it ~despite~ having no attraction at all, but it’s low-order likelihood.)

The direction this eventually leads me is to the topic of “fuzzy logic”.

If I see a man who lives with another man, who kisses him when he leaves for work, see them together at bars with a reputation for catering to same-sex recreation, see them dancing together in a club … I might have a fuzzy logic model that puts the probability of that man being homosexual at 1.0. And even with a probability of 1.0, there is still, technically, the possibility that he’s not homosexual, but just very affectionate toward his live-in brother who is …

I’m very comfortable with remembering what is just hypothesis – versus assumption – versus probable – versus witnessed or proven fact.

BTW: There are people who ~have~ told me their sexual orientation, and I will confess that in some cases, I don’t accept their self-declaration. Not necessarily that they have lied (sometimes) but more often that I’ve observed evidence that the individual is either confused or out-of-touch.

Finally, I suspect that whether you think someone’s sexual orientation must be a matter of privacy depends on a lot of things, not the least of which might be – your interest in that person as a potential partner, heh!

More seriously: a lot of ignorance is dispelled when people are open about their sexuality. I think the burden of proof is on those who would make such openness or discussion taboo to show cause.

My google search “homosexuality in animals” turned up “about 1,850,000” result items. Now that it’s politically correct to notice, which it wasn’t just a few decades ago. :wink:

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

Homosexuality in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both are decent articles, I think. The caution is that noticing a behavior in non-human animals only tells us that homosexuality can be “natural” in the most neutral sense of the word. It’s also natural for some animals to eat their young, but it’s not a valid argument for setting that as a moral threshold.

I think that science is still in the very beginning stages of investigating the causes of homosexual orientation in humans and non-humans. The only research I’ve seen discussed relates to causative process in human gestation.

(PS: The knee-jerk right has just about given up on the idea of homosexuality as a choice, though a few refuse to face reality. Now there’s a hopeful effort to show that homosexuality is a disease, for example, a virus. I suspect a good deal of research money will go that way, instead of following the gestational-hormonal trail.

{sarcasm}No one is personally guilty for accidentally being infected with a disease, of course, but society ~does~ have to take precautions. Perhaps a relatively benign virus like the eczema virus: itchy scalp, you know. Or, of course … it could be a disease that has to be quarantined. For the safety of the kids! You know? :open_mouth: :roll_eyes:){/sarcasm}

I agree with everything in this post. It is only detectable when there is blatant observable behavior WITH a partner of the same-sex, but even then, it is still not 100% accurate as either of them or even both of them could be bisexual. As far as I can tell, this is really the only way of knowing another’s orientation other than self confession. Of course, I’d have to agree that there are folks who pretend to be something they’re not for many various psychological reasons, and yes, I’d even say that some are confused about their sexuality altogether. Even though I’m not completely convinced about the technicality of how orientation is determined, I can say that we see eye to eye on the social issues regarding homosexuality.

LOL, now that is an angle that is completely new to me. I suppose it is possible, but highly doubtful. I would side with the fact that is a biological “abnormality” more than it being a contagious disease.

All this because of a bad date…

Mark, thanks for the articles! I am not interseted in the morality aspects of any of it, that is too much of a waste of time.:slight_smile:

Alright so now, maybe, we can say with a little more certainty that it is not just a matter of choice just for the sake of choosing but is a little more innate, more biological (genetically or hormonally influenced). And virus causing homosexuality…now that’s funny!:smiley:

Anyway this thread has gone too far off-topic so if I have to discuss it further I will create a new thread.

You’re right about the threadjack; my apologies to fullmoonnow.

If he’s a jerk, does it matter whether he’s a confused homosexual or really is a overly picky heterosexual? I’d think the rudeness puts him into the “don’t care” bin next to the “don’t ask, don’t tell” rubbish heap.

Some guys will not like you and will be attracted to you. Their ambivalence is not your problem.

Now put your forehead on the screen and say “Heal!”

I wish!

Regrets you had to deal with his mundane bullsh**. Perhaps he’s part of the Cheney-Bush administration, and will be indicted for war crimes. That would bring a little smile, wouldn’t it?

Cheers!

PS: Aside / OT:

Exactly. Homosexuality in our culture is abnormal – it’s not the norm. Neither is red hair. It’s biological. So is red hair. On the other hand, although it’s not “normal” in the statistical sense, it is “normal” or “natural” in the sense of ‘occurring in nature without human meddling’. Well, that cannot be said of all red hair, but you get the analogy.

The virus model is just wishful thinking, I’d say, but it will muddy the waters plenty – delay, delay, and perhaps the issue will go away.

Or ~not~! :wink:

Trust us older guys (Gegogi, etc.). He is a jerk. Sounds like there are some underlying issues. Life is short. Don’t try to figure out his “whys”. Be glad you figured it out early. Move on and never look back. Try not to be angry - if you do, go for a run or work-out of some sort. It will be good for you and help you get rid of the aggression.

You seem like a sharp young lady. You will find someone worthy of your time and affection. It took some of my sife’s friend’s a while but they are happy now.