Well, I got some of what you said…couldn’t really hear her. She’s already seeing someone else? Garrett if I heard that right? F*ck.
Anyways regardless of the outcome…I’m so very proud of you for stepping up. 
I seriously expected nothing less. 
One more piece of advice. STOP putting yourself down! It does not apply. Read that again. Then do it.
Huggies and smoochies,
Bella
Well you did it and it will only gets easier to approach the subject now but I do have to agree with Bella, 4 or 5 times in that convo you put yourself down. Dont do that anymore, its kinda good you recorded it so now you know your doing it. Alot of the time people do it without even realizing they are.
Tisha
Bella, she’s not seeing that guy. I’m working on a transcript. Here’s the first part, including the part where we talk about him (Gerad):
Me: “Hey, you got a second? Maybe take a walk…?”
Her: “Okay… Come find me if I don’t come back, Tiff!” (another girl we were talking to)
Me: “Don’t worry, I won’t leave any marks! … just kidding…”
(we walk through a squeaky door)
Me: "Yeah… I, uh… you remember that first email I sent you when I told you I got my Move Memo? And I, uh, you know, was talking about regrets?
Her: Nodding
Me: “Well, I always thought I would have time to get myself to this point, after having dealt with everything that I’ve gone through. I just kinda wanted to clear the air-- well, not really clear the air, but just be honest and straight with you.”
Her: “Okay.”
Me: chuckle “Bear with me, here. You know, when we were working at Danner? (the place we were assigned to bail out)”
Her: “Uh-huh”
Me: “…you know, I was going through my divorce and everything, so my brain was all fried up. At the same time… I was… uh… I kinda…God, I feel like a kid! Yeah, I, uh.. Kick me in the ass.” nervous chuckle, "I really… you know, I… really was attracted to you. Of course, I was stupid and goofy with that whole, uh strip club escapades and all that (she had heard me telling a couple of the guys that I’d gone a few times, and she kept giving me grief over it. Heh). That’s not really me, but it’s like I, uh… the image of myself I put out there was just kind of a dork. And so, in knowing that, I always thought, like, wow… you know, if I ever wanted to actually spill the beans… spill my guts, or whatever I was going to have to repair the image issues I’d created for myself.
Her: (the whole time, she’s got this pleasant look on her face, smiling and nodding. She chuckled a little bit at that last part)
Me: “And I always thought that I’d have time, you know, I never thought that I would move, but I just kinda wanted to throw that out there, you know, I’m not… asking you out or anything, because I know that you and Gerad are together”
Her: (rolling her eyes) “I.. I don’t understand where that’s coming from, whoever said…”
Me: “Jackie (her supervisor)… Jackie said it.”
Her: “Whatever…” (rolling her eyes again)
Me: "Yeah, that night at the Muckleshoot (casino) when, uh–
Her: “Yeah, but Jackie doesn’t know.”
Me: “Oh. Well, I mean, I was going to say, I could understand if you were wanting to keep it low key to not have any problems here at work… then… And so, out of respect for the possibility that that was indeed true, I never said anything. but now that I’m going and I probably won’t ever see you again, I just kind wanted to throw that out there and…”
Her: “Get it off your chest?”
Me: (nodding) "Get it off my chest
Her: “Finally got the balls to do it?” At this point, she high-fived me. LOL! “Great.. well, I respect that.”
-D4
ahh the law of attraction. I’ve watched the secret dvd like 20 times I love it so much. I really believe in it (still get a few red lights when driving though 
) but even if you don’t believe in it watching it will leave you feeling very possitive, It’s so inspiring.
Just ask and believe, right? Right on!
Well, so much for “spontaneity and the dynamic nature of face to face contact”.
You crashed and burned. You get that right? You didn’t do any worse than I would have done. That’s why I would have written a letter – a letter which I would have re-read and re-written a dozen times to remove the negativity and tweak the nuances.
You really would have to be an iron man to pull off what you were trying to do there. And you are not that far out of a divorce… You were walking into the lion’s den unprepared and without enough A314.
This woman wanted you. With all the obstacles finally out of the way she anticipated you finally declaring your intentions. So you started out apologizing for enjoying strip clubs. Just cut your balls off and hand them to her in a box, already. She’s not looking for a man who feels dorky about liking naked women. If she’s teasing you about strip clubs, it’s because she wants you to forget about those floozies and come on to her. Now that you are cleanly divorced you can. Tease her about what a good stripper she would be.
Then you tell her that you aren’t asking her out or anything. Why the hell not? Wasn’t that the whole point. She is making it pretty clear that is what she wants! Gerad did not need to come up. And she keeps rolling her eyes and telling you to forget him and you just won’t let it go. It’s like you are desperately looking for an excuse not to have to ask her out. If you’re gonna mention Gerard, it’s gotta be, “I know Gerad likes you, but I am better for you than he could ever be.”
And you finish with, “I probably won’t ever see you again.” Well, I guess not, then. She still gives you a high five, convinced, on an emotional level, that you must have said something else.
Your overall message was, “Even though I am attracted to you, I don’t have the balls to tell you what you obviously want to hear.” I am not trying to be mean. You recorded it and transcribed it because you obviously want to know how other people will interpret the situation. So I am telling you as directly as I can. It was painful to follow because I have been there myself. Most of us men will be there again. So it is worth learning from as much as possible.
I think you either did not want this woman as much as you think you did. Or you are convinced you somehow don’t deserve her.
Reps for the recording and transcript. It takes guts to put yourself out there.
What Warren said, yeh. That’s what I was trying to say. Only he did it a LOT better.
The rest of the conversation, minus some goofy stuff at the end:
Me: "And, you know, I’m not expecting you to say anything one way or the other. And.. and you’re not stupid; you probably picked up on the whole body language and the way I’ve acted.
Her: “I’m retarded… I didn’t even think about… honestly, I mean…”
Me: "Well, the only thing… yeah, the time when I was married, um… you know, at that time, I thought, you know, that she was somebody I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and when she wanted a divorce, it was like every fiber of my being was devoted to trying to fix that situation.
Her: “Are you better now?”
Me: "Yeah, in fact it’s in the last couple of months that I basically have gone through the healing process, you know. It was rough, and you know that, I wasn’t the happiest person in the world when we were down there, and then in February-- er, well in January… we got divorced on February 2, and the closer it got, the worse I got. But then, after we got the divorce, it was like… Okay, I’m still alive, I’m still here, and I’m still breathing. So, I just needed to get through that ‘dealing-with’ process, coming to terms, healing…
Her: (unintelligible)
Me: “I didn’t want to get myself… I didn’t want to put myself in a vulnerable position having already been in the process of being vulnerable and all that..?”
Her: “Yeah.”
Me: “But I… if I had gone to Renton without saying anything, I would have been kicking myself in the butt. You know, ‘you shoulda, you coulda, you shoulda…’”
Her: “It a hard thing to do, too.”
Me: “Yeah… so… you’re not creeped out by me are you?”
Her: (punching me in the arm and laughing) “Are you kidding!?”
Me: (laughing) "But that’s basically it…
-D4
It’s funny… I told Tisha this in a PM. When I’m around women I’m not really attracted to, or in the case of the strippers, not emotionally attracted to, I can flirt, cut up, and generally have a good time and be relatively smooth about it. Get me to open up my heart to someone I really care about, and I turn into a stuttering, nervous, drooling idiot.
Guys, don’t you hate it when that happens?
-D4
You put yourself down a lot , as a few others have mentioned. Try to avoid that completely. You kept saying things that suggest you don’t consider yourself worthy of her. Really be careful with that sort of thing. A healthy measure of humbleness is good, but… well, my last relationship ended, in part, due to his inferiority complex. You know what they say… if you don’t love yourself, how can you expect others to love you? I think you need to build your self confidence up a bit, especially considering what a rotten time you’ve had lately. All of the changes must be very rough… my heart goes out to you. Just try to remember that it can only be as bad as you let it. “It’s not the power of the curse; it’s the power you give the curse.” That’s a line from a movie Replace “curse” with “rotten luck,” or anything else that applies!
Now, give yourself a BIG hug and tell yourself what an awesome, super-cool person you are!
Wasn’t everyone in this thread just talking about “the secret”?-- Ask, and ye shall receive 
Just sent this email. Thoughts?
Hey there. I meant to give you this when we talked Friday, but I was such a nervous, stammering wreck, I totally forgot. My cell number: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Geez, I’ve been playing what I said over and over in my head and I can’t help but think I sounded goofy. I hope I was able to get my point across. I thought about writing an email to say what I said, because I can usually keep the “Umm…”'s and “you know”'s in check when I write. I just thought it would be better to say it face to face. I only wish I’d said it sooner and with a little more… I dunno… confidence? Regaining and holding tight to a sense of self worth is probably the biggest thing a person has to do after a life-changing breakup, and I’m working on it.
But still… as I said when we talked, if I had let myself go on to Renton without telling you I really like and am attracted to you, I would have beaten myself up over and over. When I said that I figured you’d have picked up on it, you said you were retarded. Haha… no, not retarded. Maybe a bit quirky, but in all honesty, that’s one of the things I like about you. That and your smile. I’m always trying to get you to crack up… 
Anyway, as you’re reading this, I’m probably smack in the middle of being orientated. Or filling paperwork out. Or having some other type of … uh… fun. Right. I’m sending this to you via my personal email because I don’t know how much access I’ll have to a computer at work, so feel free to email me here if you like. Let me know how things are going over there, and if you get moved. Hey, maybe you’ll get sent over here to work with Tiff and the others? At least it would be with friends. Anyhow, talk to you later!
-Jon
-D4
Not exactly. You just choked. You may still be able to get this engine started. But ya gotta step on the gas. Don’t let too much time pass.
God damn right.
You took another step in the recovery process by sticking your neck out. A step in the right direction. It’s easier to flirt and kid around with someone when you aren’t really attracted and have no emotional investment. But when you have feelings for someone it means opening up and, once again, allowing yourself to become vulnerable. Not so easy, especially, because you’ve been through hell. Bravo!
So, we know she’s not seeing Gerad. Good. And you’re not creeping her out…also good. Now, what’s the next step? You didn’t get number/email. Does she have a number at work where you can reach her? If so, do so. Ask her for a date. Nothing too intimate or formal, at first, there’s plenty of time for that. How about something like a baseball game? I love to go to the games. BTW…my team is in first place!!! It’s about damn time too. You could watch the game, eat some dogs, drink a couple of beers…maybe go to a quieter place for a drink afterwards…or not…depending how it goes…ask her.
If she says something like, “Thought ya didn’t wanna ask me out.” Just tell her, “Hahaha…I changed my mind…you girls do it all the time…truth is I did wanna ask you…so how about it? How about I take you to a game?..we’ll have some fun.” Or maybe there’s something else you can do that involves a few other distractions so you’re not just sitting around looking at each other. Then you/she won’t feel so akward about keeping the conversation flowing and, thus, less chance of engaging the motor mouth syndrome. You get the idea. I know you work different shifts and she’s no longer in close proximity…but you’re a smart creative guy…come up with something viable…and ask her…you’re half way there. You have to decide if it’s worth the effort/time/energy you now would have to put into getting together. Frankly I’ve always been rather flattered when a guy obviously goes out of his way and is willing to put what it takes into being with me. Shows me that he’s really interested. If I didn’t know you have what it takes, Jon, I’d be wasting my time right now. But I’m not and you do.
Bella
I’ve got her number. She gave it to me Wednesday. I also know her work email, but she’s said before that she doesn’t have a computer at home. She said she uses her sister’s computer sometimes and I believe she has an email address on yahoo. Oh, and as in the email I just posted, I gave her my number.
-D4
Oooopsy! I think we were typing at the same time, Jon, only you’re way faster than me! Anyways I posted the above before I saw your latest. Forgive me for being so slow…but I’m half in the bag here. 
You emailed her…you gave her your cell#…and you’ve got her number. Now you’re getting somewhere! But the next time you get the urge to communicate…call her instead*.* If you can listen to her voice you’ll get a better indication of how she’s really feeling toward you…then ask her out.
You can be all of those things. Ya jus’ gotta STOP saying or writing this to her! I can say that again in Italian if you like.
We guys get all nervous in these situations (way beyond what most women can understand). Feeling this miserable, it is natural for us to want our mommies. It is a normal emotional reaction whether it is in our conscious thoughts or not. But if we are not careful, our actions are influenced by these feelings and we start treating our target like mommy. You can’t help wanting her to understand, to take care of things, to make you her baby.
Of course, she’s feeling the same sh*t. If, starting out, you let her be your baby, the time will come when she’ll make you her baby. But for now, she is looking for a man, a lover, perhaps a husband. She’s not looking for a son. You take care of her. Help her through this very difficult transition of becoming more-than-just-friends. You’ve been married. You know how to get there better than she does.
It is necessary for the tension to build. A few false starts are okay. Don’t try to escape the tension prematurely. And don’t walk away before the climax. Stay with it, and good luck…
I’m on vacation next week.
Oh Data. I have been trying to following everything. I think the email you sent was right on the money.
Once again, sensitive and articulate - honest and comforting too. Not enough guys like you around. Weirdly enough, most of them I have encountered have been here!
Hang in there - like Warren said. At least you did it and now you wont have any regrets for totally missing the boat!
For the next email, I’d suggest keeping it short, upbeat, and focused on her. Cockyfunny etc, member?
Wowee. Lots of commentary already.
Okay D4. You did good.
But..and I’m sure you see it coming, you need to stop doing what Bella, Warren, Tisha, etc…all stated. Self-deprecating humor is all and well, but I’d definitely tone it down some, it’s definitely getting to the point where it might cock an eyebrow.
I feel like what you’re going through is common for a lot of guys that are just coming out of relationships. Maybe it’s the whole ‘wanting a mother’ like Warren stated, or maybe it’s that my ex-gf was my ‘mother’. Either way, I didn’t realize it at the time, but I was trying to approach other girls in the context of my past relationship.
So I forgot that not all girls will like really aggressive guys. I also forgot emotional intimacy isn’t just ‘there’, but comes at a certain point in a relationship. Forgetting what it’s like to be at the beginning point at a relationship, I regress to the one pattern I am comfortable with, which is a bf/gf dynamic. But that doesn’t work. You can be cute and lovey dovey with your gf to a fault, but not as much with a girl you’re trying to hit up.
I think it’s really ballsy of you to post of that recording of yourself, as many have said. It would have been fascinating if I had a chance to watch both of your faces/bodies. The transcript helped a lot though, I couldn’t hear her at all. Based on the two sources of information, I’d say, she wants you to ask her out.
This is actually a bit confusing for me, so maybe the ladies would be generous to offer some clearer perspective? But, the way I see it, is if a girl is ‘kinda’ with a guy, but when you ask her about it, she sorta brushes it off, is a very clear sign that she’s willing to look for other options.
How easy is it for a girl to have a ‘bf’ when she meets someone she’s not interested in? How often will girls point out that they’re single and ready to mingle, if there’s a guy they’re interested in nearby?
I have a she-devil. She’s actually a very sweet girl, but the nature of my relationship with her is what makes her a bit of a demon to me. Everyone I know, everyone that’s ever seen the two of us together, for some reason always mentions that she clearly likes me. Completely out of the blue. She must hug me in a really special way for other guys to be saying that. (What is it girls?? ) When asked about who she’s dating, she stated I’m not really trying to date anyone, I’m enjoying being single. But watching her actual behavior, she’s clearly seeing one guy over all the others…
So what’s that supposed to be? I’m sure every girl is different. My choices are limited, so do I keep my friendship intact with a girl that really does seem to genuinely like me, or do I check to see if the door’s open? (actually I’m waiting for option 3 Go back to school meet other girls, and make her jealous enough to come find me.) Me personally, I feel that part of the reason she treats me the way she does is because I turned my back on school, and in a way, our stagnant relationship and had to leave to find myself. (We were drunk, but she clearly asked me, who are you running from?) But it’ll be a cold day in hell, or I’ll be a very happy guy, if she ever hears that escape my lips.
Maybe I’m cynical, maybe I’m inexperienced and have yet to see how this unfolds, but if I were to express my thoughts, I feel like it would not be the same.
That being said, I would say the situation is different for you. You’re not dealing with a young college chick. I don’t think she will be as indecisive, the fact that she didn’t really acknowledge her ‘relationship’ with Gerad, to me, is a big sign that says, “I’m not dating him…yet. You gonna do something about it?”
So do something about it. No emails, a couple phone calls if you need em, but really, after that, the next time you talk to her, it should be in person, on a date, or out to lunch, or bowling, or whatever.
Guys, I just want to tell you all how much I appreciate your advice. All of it, including Warren’s “tough love” honesty really helps. It’s strange being a 35 year old man, but feeling like I’m 15 again. Parts of me still want to hide my emotions and just go on being the cocky, flirty, funny guy that I can be around people I’m not really attracted to, but at the end of the day, I realize how lonely that can be.
I’d sworn off relationships after the divorce. I’m sure you’ve all been there or in similar situations where things turned out bad. Be it a relationship, or a heavy night out drinking (“God, please, get me through this hangover, and I swear, I’ll never get drunk again!”). I figured that the rush and high of new love was not worth the pain of the eventual breakup. And therein lies one of my problems. It’s easy to be cynical and jaded, thinking that whatever happens to me that is good will ultimately end in tears.
Having invested so much in my marriage, and then being told I’m not wanted any more really screwed with my self-esteem. I’d try to trick myself into thinking that I deserved better as a way of making myself feel better, and even that backfired. I’d mentally go over all of my ex’s faults and then come to the conclusion, “Wow… if a person like that doesn’t want me, I must really be a steaming pile of shit!”.
These thought patterns are really hard to get out of, and I know this. Knowing it and executing it are two vastly different things. I was a bit apprehensive about posting the recording and transcript, but I’m glad I did. The purpose was served perfectly, and you all have given me much food for thought. I can’t thank you all enough.
-D4
Which is why we applaud you.
I don’t know if this thread is up your alley or not, but I was wondering if you had any comments..