In all seriousness, people play games all the time but never end up with the partner they love/respect admire and think the world of. dont you want to be with the person or types of women who you REALLY WANT?
I promise if you play the game, you will attract many lessers and repulse the right woman/women for you.
Like attracts Like, Games attracts games, Magnetism attracts what exactly what you want.
Sometimes our hearts get broken along the way, but we are stronger for it in the long run, we have a more in depth experience of life, and are better able to attract a fabulous soul-mate/soul mates if we are genuine, charismatic, open and strong.
Pheronoob, I appreciate your response. As is probably clear enough, I put some time and effort into writing the long post above. I appreciate Mark’s reply. As a salesman who makes his living working with people, his viewpoint on these things is always valuable. But I have been disappointed that, until you, there hadn’t been any female reactions – even though this is on the women’s forum.
I read somewhere that women really don’t get it. A man has to expend tremendous effort to seduce a woman and she just thinks it was fate. Things went so smoothly because it was “meant to be.” It is generally still left to the man to take the initiative, to make the first approach. She has little clue how difficult that can be. She wants a man to be confident, but has no compunction about completely humiliating him if he’s not the right man or says the “wrong” thing. I guess it is difficult for us to appreciate each others roles in the courtship ritual. It is apparently true that a man can learn more from another man than he can from a woman on these issues. That seems paradoxical to me. Shouldn’t a woman know better what a woman wants? I’m not the first to struggle with that question.
Struggling to learn the game
A few short years ago, several things happened in my life that forced me to start questioning everything, including relationships. One of the first books I read was The System, mentioned above. A short ways into the book, I just put it down and walked away. I didn’t want to read that crap. I don’t want to think of women that way. Well, I started paying attention to way men and woman interact, with Mr Valentine’s principles in mind. I was forced to consider the possibility that there was more truth to the book than I had wanted to realize. I finally came back to it and read and re-read it three times. It is not the whole story, but it is a frighteningly large part of it.
I read and re-read Robert Greene’s book, R. Don Steele’s books, Mystery’s book and couple dozen others. I am not a particularly fast reader and anymore I have trouble with my eyes. I rarely read a book cover-to-cover. I scan it and pick out a couple of important chapters for closer attention. These books I read, re-read and often read a third or forth time, slowly. The first time I was so infuriated that I couldn’t think straight. If it was a valuable volume, I had to read it at least a second time, in order to calm down enough to really grasp the important concepts. “The Game” is at odds with everything I had been lead to believe in my upbringing and education.
My first reaction, as I began to understand “the game,” was just to be angry at women. I’d had experience at that. It seemed a universal truth, most of my life, that the better I treated a woman the worse she treated me. I began to get an inkling of what that was about. As I gained perspective I was enlightened enough to “Hate the game, not the player.” That was a big jump for me to realize that we have little choice but to play the game the way it is played. But with advancements in gene therapy we may actually be approaching the point where we can change our instincts as they are genetically defined. Should we change the game if we could? Is courtship that follows the tenents of political correctness a good enough reason to remap our biological imperatives?
Imagine a foreign kid, Fez That Seventies Show] perhaps, who has never heard of American football. You put him in a football jersey, helmet, shoulder pads, etc and send him out onto the field without any instruction as to how the game works, the purpose, the rules. Do you think he would have fun at almost getting killed? But for most of us that is our introduction to sexuality. Sure, if we’re lucky we get a sex ed calss where we learn “the plumbing,” but no clue about what makes the opposite sex’s heart flutter or why. Worse than that we’re told to do exactly what won’t work! At least that was my experience. As far as the adults were concerned, did they not know, did they intentionally mislead me, were they intimidated into lying by political correctness or did the game change from generation to generation? More and more I am coming to believe we can all learn to enjoy playing “the game” the way it is, if only we are allowed to learn the rules at an early age. Sometimes it almost seems there is a grand conspiracy to make them a huge secret.
Other cultures
I look to other cultures and other times for hope. While studying Tantra, I heard about girls being trained from an early age how to please a man and find satisfaction sexually in a manner that creates a spiritual bond. The Daoists had a very similar tradition. Certainly there was an enormous wealth of information for men wanting to be better lovers. These cultures made a science of it and they devoted their lives to this form of spirituality. But these South Asian and East Asian cultures have a tradition of arranged marriages. They skip the entire process we call “the game.” That is one solution – leave it to the elders. But that doesn’t help me.
Some have idealized the South Pacific islanders that Margaret Mead studied. Without the puritanical guilt and mores of the West, adolescents freely had sex with each other. No one disapproved. When you get down to details, however, they were unfamiliar with and uninterested in what has come to be known as the “missionary position.” They weren’t making love. They were just f*cking. There was nothing similar to romance in the Western tradition. The almost exact opposite sitiuation existed during the early renassiance period credited with spawning romantic love in Europe. The knight in shining armor would devote himself to risking life and limb defending a lady’s honour, though he had little , if any, hope of ever touching her.
That rather pointless divison between honour and the flesh fits nicely into the philosophical doctrine which a few centuries later would be known as Cartesian dualism. And Western academic thought remains so divided. Poets study love. Biologists study the plumbing. The only hope would seem to be with the psychologists, but our frustration continues. Wilhelm Riech studied the Function of the Orgasm. Theodore Reik studied the psychoanalysis of love. I defy you to find a university that teaches PSYCH 202 The Art of Erotic Seduction. In the East, Cartesian dualism does not exist. The Chinese character pronounced yao means want or need. There is no distinction between want and need. As better example, a character pronounced bun means clumsy or stupid. There is no dsinction between being physically awkward (clumsy) and mentally awkward (stupid). Yet, in the East, they seem to have no game.
We have progressed beyond the time where courtship consisted of the biggest caveman with the biggest club dragging the prettiest woman back to his cave. We have outgrown the arranged marriage of traditional societies. We are sufficiently affluent that marriage for economic pragmatism is unacceptable. By the 1960s effective birth control existed as did antibiotic cures for known venerial diseases (STDs) of the time. But the Sexual Revolution of the 1960s was not as widely participated in as legend might have it. Centuries of guilt and shame did not disappear as fast as penicillin-treated syphilis. TV sitcoms of the era always showed twin beds in the master bedroom. The suggestion that husband and wife might share the same bed was more than the audience’s sensibilities could tolerate. Now turn on the TV and there’s a single queen-sized bed with two naked people doing it. Still, we haven’t figured out how to pair off, on our own, and have happy relationships.
If we look to more esoteric sources, Semjase told Billy Meier that the Pleiadians, who are supposed to be ancient ancestors of earth humans, live to be nearly a thousand years old. Remember, from the Old Testament, Methusela and Noah lived to be over nine hundred. It was only after the flood that earth humans were limited to a maximum of 120 years. Modern scientists confirm the 120 year maximum life span number from Genesis. Perhaps it makes sense that by middle age we are only beginning to relate to the opposite sex in a sane way. According to our original genetic blueprint, our life has only just begun, even for a centigenarian. If these hypotheses are true, we need to work to preserve our youth. And we need to study what others have learned to be wise beyond our age, for we shall die too young to learn the game from experience.
Narcissism
We all begin life as 100% narcissistic infants, unable to recognize a world outside ourselves. As we mature we are forced to recognize an external reality in order to get our needs met. With each new frustration we are forced to gain a better understanding of our environment in order to get satisfaction. As we grow up and achieve greater independence we continually shed layers of narcissism. Reviewing Mystery’s A3, I am struck by the parallel in the approach he describes. The target is drawn out by continually forcing her to increase her investment in the PUA to gain more of the social rewards he provides.
In a child’s normal social development, he learns to appreciate and to value the needs and viewpoints of others. This is a continuing process thoughout adulthood. Some young children are so abused that they learn to never risk acknowledging the emotional reality of others. For them it is too dangerous to do anything but maintain tight control over their own world. Most of us are not so emotionally stunted, but still in one place or another we have difficulty appreciating the other’s viewpoint.
In my own case, I believe that feminism has made it difficult to appreciate the feminine role. I certainly agree that a woman deserves the same pay as a man for the same work. But that is different from saying the woman is the same as a man. In the campaign for equal rights, feminists have succeeded in imposing a politically correct notion that men and women are the same. How often have you been told that the opposite sex wants the same thing that you do? Well, no they don’t!! It is very difficult to learn to appreciate the other’s point of view when you are continually lied to about what it is! The narcissist fails to realize that others see things differently from him. A poilitical correctness, which forces us to assume (against what may have been our better judgement) that the other sex is just like us, forces us into a kind of pseudo-narcissism where we treat others like ourselves – in spite of the fact that we recognize their separateness. This is an issue of our times. And when (as we are taught) we treat them the way that we would like to be treated ourselves and they reject us, it really pisses us off. Doing the “right thing” is destined to failure and this sets up and undue tension between the sexes – which no doubt can lead to unnecessary violence amongst the weaker personalities. Life is too short to learn the game without relying on the wisdom of others, but that has proven to be woefully inadequate, if not downright misleading for recent generations of Americans.
I have also learned that a man cannot rely on a woman to explain what she wants. First off, she wants a leader, so the mere fact of asking disqualifies him. If he asks a female third party she is unlikely to know – or to know that she doesn’t know! Ladies, do you have the same experience with men? Can you ask a man what he wants in a woman and get a helpful response? Or is following his suggestions more likely to get you treated like a slut than loved as a goddess? I do not know the answer to that. I am curious to what your experiences have been? Do men know what they want?
Pheronoob, it sounds like you are in a delicate position. I sympathize. You’re not stupid, but proceed very cautiously. I wish you luck! And, by the way, I don’t think that narcissistic bitches and jerks ever find real satisfaction. They are unable to make real contact with other beings and that is probably our strongest psychological need.
Warren, what you are writing sounds like it has been well thought out.
you do have alot of sterotypes suggested about women in that little page of yours, I was left wondering about other women too.
As a woman, I for one know exactly what I want (and guess what, I do not like alpha men, prefer nerdballs-as long as the chemistry is great). I looovvvvveeee to be treated like a Goddess and if I am not, I do not have a problem leaving relationship.
And Guess what, my father treats my mother like a Goddess and they are still happily married after many moons.
The only ladies I know that prefer to be treated badly (they do exist), do not know themselves, how to trust their nose or how to pick out (we flirt for your advances) the right man.
Stupidly, these are routinely the women men flock to or want to be with or fantasize about.
Warren. Your response was so well put together that it merits printing and keeping.
I understant exactly what you are saying - and have read some of the books you mention. I just finished a Margaret Mead book a couple of weeks ago.
I’m trying to articulate the swirling ideas in my head to form an intelligent response.
Where did it all go wrong? I think women have been raised in an inadequate manner. (By other women). Somewhere along the line the message was passed down that women were not actually valued, and had to behave in a coy and narcissistic manner to appeal to the protective qualities of a man. In this way, our society for generations has not fostered the idea of a PARTNERSHIP between the sexes.
I actually think that debases a man. Dont men want to equally share in a relationship? Men are often forced into the position of “head of the household”. Ok, fine for control freaks - or men who like those mail order brides. Dont you guys want a companion (who also has sex)? I know women who basically GIVE their husbands sex in EXCHANGE for his paycheck. They are okay with that. I think that is manipulative and conniving. And sad. And unfortunately in the majority.
Women just want someone to take care of them. I have had too many friends who mostly want material comforts from a man. I have never been that way. Ironically, however, I am the one of my friends with an H who has job security (we have the highest unemployment rate in the country), and a good salary. But he is married to that job - and there is nothing left when he gets home.
Warren. I sense some cynicism. Not that there is anything wrong with that! It’s self preservation. I am more cynical than most people I know. The more I work in Behavioral Health (hellooo oxy moron) the more cynical I become.
I feel for you men. How do you find a real woman and trust that she is not after you for pure Darwinian reasons? How do you know she wants you for you? Just have fun. Who cares how you are dressed? Who gives a shit what kind of car you drive?
Also, IMHO, I think the appalling behavior of some of these bimbos is a function of age. Chicks with fresh eggs will do whatever they can to procreate! Hey, been there, done that - I am ashamed to say.
Beware of the biological clock. It turns the nicest women into testicle-grabbing bitches.
I am not bailing on sisterhood though. There are some women out there like I said before that are the genuine article. But I doubt you will find them on any dating websites. There are probably more here than anywhere else.
The amazing thing about this site is that it was all fun and perfume at the beginning. Now I am reading some heavy duty intellectual stuff here - and getting psychological insights that I dont even get at work! I have learned more here in the last few months than I have at my job (a psychology clinic) in two years.
So Warren, I printed out your post. There are some really valuable books you mentioned that I have not yet read. Off to the library I go…
Most of us guys had the wrong information hammered into our heard from puberty on, and were given information that almost guaranteed our failure.
I do not believe that it was intentional though. My parents raised me to treat girls as princesses and put them on pedestals. I was taught that if you liked a girl you should to tell her and show her how much. My parents taught me to be wimpy. Did they teach me these things knowing that I would fail and go to bed at night laughing about it? No! I think that they forgot what life was like before marriage and were giving me advice based on how they learned to act toward each other and what they did to sustain the marriage.
Most of the advice I got came from my mother, who was telling me to treat women in a way that she felt she would like to be treated. She failed to realize that how a woman wants to be treated and what generates the spark of attraction are two completely different things. She never sat me down and told me about guys she had been attracted to before getting married and what those guys did to catch her attention, and I never thought to ask! I just saw that my parents were happy and believed that they must be giving me good advice.
Have we really progressed? Or have we simply made the concept of marriage and partnerships obsolete? The cave man and cave women needed each other for survival! As did man and women up until the start of the industrial revolution. To maintain a household and propagate the species took a man to earn the money or tend the farm, and a woman to keep up the house, cook, clean, and take care of the children. WE WERE DEPENDENT ON ONE ANOTHER!!!
In todays world of high tech, fast food, TV dinners, equal rights, feminism and the need for immediate gratification, men and women no longer need each other to survive and propagate.
She also wants someone who is confident and as Warren stated: the mere fact of asking shows a lack of confidence.
You know I think I met one a couple of weeks ago. She lives in Austin and had moved there to get away from the materialist world that Dallas is. She told me that she got fed up with all the $30,000 a year millionaires here and that she didn’t care how much money a guy made, what kind of car he drove, or the clothes he wore. After hearing that, I kept my mouth shut about having just bought a new car. Then when we left, we walked out of the club and climbed into my car, which still had the dealer plates on it.
I’ve hesitated to say what I think here because all I have to offer is a bunch of opinions and they can easily be shot down. But I’m sure you guys will be nice to me. Right?
Personally, I think it is easy to take dating waaay too seriously. If you aren’t having fun, you are doing it wrong or with the wrong person. (Giddy fluttery self-conscious panic is actually considered part of the fun.) The biggest mistake I’ve made has been to focus on just one guy before I knew him well enough. That made things get very serious very quickly because all my chickens were in one basket, or whatever that saying is.
A man has to treat me well and with respect or I’m not interested. But that is very different from offering me the keys to his house and his soul during our first meeting over coffee! A playful attitude is important, along with a slightly assertive edge to keep things moving in an erotic direction. Being a jerk is taking things too far, and being cocky only works for genuinely cocky people. Talking about what our potential grandchildren would look like is also taking things too far.
There are looooads of annoying things about men and women. It probably bugs me just as much when a guy ignores me to focus on a younger prettier chick – as it does for a guy when a girl rejects him because of his car. The great thing is, most people don’t act like that. And what’s even greater is that the people who do act like that tend to congregate in the same places. So it is simple to avoid them.
I’ve asked a few men what they were looking for in a woman. It’s one of my favorite interview style questions. I’ve seldom been told anything that didn’t describe most women. Down to earth, good sense of humor, great body, nice hair, nice smile, intelligent, good friend, takes care of herself, enjoys sex, can play tennis/rockclimb/bikeride/snowmobile/ski/cook/speak Thai/go bowling/play videogames with him or whatever. Apart from some of the activities, those are all pretty easy.
(I am in a pretty good position when it comes to men right now, so that may explain my irrational optimism. Ask me about this again the next time I have a breakup.)
Now, now, Pheronoob, we don’t want your pity. Mark has a picture of a different pretty woman or women everytime I look. I am in a situation not so different from you, Pheronoob. For now I’m just trying to improve my understanding of the game. Every time I have an opportunity to dip my toes into the water something bizarre happens.
Well, there haven’t been any new responses for a week. Tell us what you think, Phya.
So… Pheronoob, whadaya think our grandchildren would look like?
I don’t think the tenets of Behaviorism allow for a behavioral definition of health. What a concept! Basically they are saying the bureaucrats and poiticians will define health and the professionals will only concern themselves with coercing the clients into compliance. Am I close?
Majority?! You really think it’s that bad? You make call girls sound like a bargain.
Unfortunately, what comes next is even worse.
Good point!
So, if your partents had been cheating on each you would have learned more game. Again, advantage jerks!!
I have been wondering recently about male sex roles. What does it mean to be a man? How has that changed? Last few years I have made a point of watching movies and TV shows from the forties, fifties and sixties with an eye to how the male heroes are portrayed.
One of the most popular TV shows of the late 1950s was “Have Gun Will Travel” starring Richard Boone, who plays a character who goes by the name of Paladin. You can get the 1957, 1958 and 1959 seasons from Netflix. Paladin was a West Point graduate who basically works as a hired gun in the Old West. Some of the episodes were written by Gene Rodenbury of Star Trek fame. Paladin always gets himself into a hopeless predicament, but ultimately manages to win the day by sticking to his principles and doing the right thing.
Another example is Gunsmoke starring James Arness as Marshal Matt Dillon. Gunsmoke ran from 1955 until 1975 making it the longest running prime time drama in television history. From 1957 to 1961 it was television’s number one ranked show. The Marshal is, again, an honest, direct, upright hero.
The coolest of these heros is Peter Gunn starring Craig Stevens. This aired from 1957 to 1960. Again, these are definitely worth renting from Netflix. Peter Gunn was a private detective. His girlfriend, Edie Hart, was a jazz singer. They didn’t show it back then, but – unlike Marshal Dillon and Miss Kitty – Peter and Edie, no doubt, had very good sex. Peter Gunn was always walking right into the bad guys’ trap. He knew it was a trap, but that didn’t matter. Heros were direct back then. They didn’t run from a fight. The hit harder and drew faster; that’s all.
This all started to change in 1967 with the movie Bonney and Clyde which was criticized for romanticizing criminals. In 1971 Clint Eastwood starred as Dirty Harry an unorthodox detective at odds with an increasingly feminized police bureaucrasy. In 1974 Charles Bronson stars as a vigilante in the first Death Wish movie. Our heros are changing.
In todays action dramas when the bad guy double-crosses the good guy, the good guy finds a way to triple-cross the bad guy. How often do you see the good guys hacking into a computer network or calling in a favor to get an advantage without having to go before a judge for a legal warrant? Our laws are no longer concrete examples of correct principles to live by. They have become pesky rules to be gotten around.
Can you imagine an episode of CSI where David Caruso arrives on Main Street at high noon to out draw his nemesis? What about John Wayne or Marshal Matt Dillon? Marshal Dillon walks out into the street alone. He eyes his advesary and waits for the bad guy to draw first. Then the marshal reaches for his gun and shoots the villain down in self defense. That’s how it’s done!
My little boys laugh!! Doesn’t the marshal know he could get killed? (Not to mention being put on administrative leave for the rest of the week.) If he knows where the bad guys are camped, why doesn’t he sneek up on them the night before? Take a posse and arrest them for camping without a permit, littering, resisting arrest, lying to a federal agent, income tax evasion, conspiracy, unregistered fire arms, concealed deadly weapons, threatening a law enforcement officer, disorderly conduct, trespassing, disturbing the habitat of an endangered species, suborning terrorism, third strike violations. Or just shoot them in the head while they sleep and claim self-defense. There won’t be any witnesses. Why should the good marshal risk getting shot at?
I remember a John Wayne movie, In Harms Way (1965), which covers the two years following Pearl Harbor and the begining of World War II. Finally, John Wayne gets up the courage to ask out this nurse. He does. She says yes. They have dinner together that week end. It looks so easy.
Would that work now? It’s like the gun fight at high noon. You could get shot down! Girls today would say yes and then stand you up. And it would be your fault. How could a girl respect a man for being so gullible?! The PUA books tell you how to not ask a girl out. You say, “Hey, I’m going down to Starbucks. Come with me.” If they say no, that’s okay. You were going anyway. Don’t give them a clean shot. John Wayne would find that cowardly. They think John Wayne is square. He takes unnecessary risks. If you want to plan a date in advance, you pay for it by the hour. Escorts hate “no shows” more than anything. Those appointments are sacred. But if you’ve ever known any “working girls” socially… On their own time, they are no different. Thye’ll stand a boy up and think he was a fool for asking them out. It boggles the mind.
So I ask you: Is the media’s contemporary portrail of cowboys an accurate metric for determining what women want? Or am I misinterpreting the whole thing?
Compared with what I have seen of asian families, American mothers really denigrate their sons, raising them as meal tickets and cannon fodder. And apparently you’ve seen those results in your husband, Pheronoob.
On the frontier, it did not take a lot of values clarification exercises for a man and a woman to realize how they depended on each other for survival. I agree, Mark, that “men and women no longer need each other to survive and propagate.” We still need each other. It’s just that we don’t understand how or why. We are not going to be truly happy without a mate. We are not going to evolve psychologically or spiritually without a mate. But since our sex ed ended with diagrams of plumbing, we have no clue how to get what we need from each other for the next step. Having our basic physical needs met, too many of us try to bolster our self esteem by aquiring wealth and power. When we do this to the exclusion of emotional contact with other humans, we deprive ourselves of true satisfactions and the opportunity for meaniful spiritual devlopment. Men and women need each other here, but we don’t get it. Isn’t that more or less what David D would say? For how many people is it God they are trying to find through sex? I think for most of them it is just release, which makes masturbation look pretty good.
Now, given the complexity of the problem, one of the greatest frustrations for me is how little time I have to react. Remember Mystery’s three second rule? After spotting an attractive woman a man has three seconds to approach her. That’s not three minutes. That’s three seconds, about the time it takes to read this sentence. It is not only Mystery’s rule. I have read it in numerous other places. And it actually does make sense. Imagine standing at a bus stop. After awhile you turn and begin talking to the stranger standing next to you. You are going to be a stalker or a weirdo or an Amway salesman. Suppose you say, “Hi, how are you” first thing as you walk up to the bus stop. Then you’re just a friendly guy. It’s a strange perceptual psychology thing, and it’s real.
Shortly after that I have to start showing some sexual interest or I become stuck in the friend zone. I don’t recall if Mystery or anybody else has put a time limit on it, but it is probably going to be a matter of minutes – long before I know if there’s any serious spiritual connection. Women will complain that, “Men are only after one thing” but if we don’t show sexual interest very early on, we are forever relegated to the “friend zone”. There is no escape from the friend zone. No, there’s not. Not in the real world there isn’t. This biological and spiritual all in the same being is a very complicated thing. It is no wonder to me that men and women have a hard time connecting successfully.
Do you know what it is to be delighted? It means receiving something that satisfies you in ways that you didn’t know were possible. As a business strategy giving the customer what he wants is a lousy strategy. A company with real expertise will delight the customer with products he didn’t know existed. Think of your favorite pheromone. Did you know you wanted that before A.P.R. made it available to you?
The man, who will bring satisfactions to your life that you do not yet know are possible, is a man who you cannot identify. I don’t think you know what you want in a relationship. None of us do.
I am going to assume this is another form of the question, “Why do men like bitches?” The answer is pretty much for the same reason that women like jerks. I’ll divde it into four parts.
First, narcissism is attractive. Narcissists are self satisfied. They don’t care about anyone else, and they don’t need anyone else. This pretense of self-sufficiency is a defense against an inner emptiness and insecurity, but most of us don’t see that deep. We just see this sense of self satisfaction and we would like to feel that way too, so we are drawn to them. It is a narcissistic (selfish) attraction – they have something we want. Narcissists attract narcissists, but they attract the rest of us, too.
Second, impulsive and undisciplined bitches and jerks do not have the muscle tensions the twisted, driven, pressured nerds do. Their bodies move smoothly like a wild animal. Wildness is attractive. Less Reichian armor, less sexual repression.
Third, the very things that make it impossible to have a relationship with these people may draw us to them. People who had emotional problems with their parents often find others with the same personality flaw as their parent of the opposite sex. They then continue to work to get what they couldn’t get from their parent. It is kind of an emotional second chance, but it doesn’t usually work out any better the the second time. This bitch is as impossible as that bitch. These relationships can devolve into a sadomasochistic attachment, with its own perverse satisfactions.
Fourth, repressed libido is attractive. The hysterical character was more prevalent twenty or thirty years ago, but she is still the classic bitch. Due to oedipal guilt she is sexually frigid or put more politically correctly “preorgasmic” – as though she will some day be “post-orgasmic,” which she won’t. This sexual repression is enforced by muscle tensions in the pelvis extending through her legs and feet. The chronic tension in the extensor muscles of her lower body make her a natural for high heel shoes. And feet flat on the floor would put her more in touch with the physical world than she can tolerate. Oral longings dating probably to frustrations in the second half of the second year of life cause her to seek constant attention. This combined with her pent up libido make her an insouciant flirt with every move and sentence filled with double entendre about which she is in complete denial. She is the ultimate cock tease. She is liable to become the rape victim who everyone says was asking for it. She alone doesn’t understand why. Or she may gain enough sophistication to accept sexuality on an intellectual level, in which case she is liable to become a nymphomaniac desperately seeking from one partner after another the orgasmic satisfaction which her unconscious is incapable of allowing of her.
Alexander Lowen described a male counterpart which he called the phallic narcissistic character. To the best of my recollection, this was a tense, rigid, driven character prone to financial success and premature ejaculation.
Funny I was thinking the same thing just a day ago. Honestly, so many different aspects have been touched upon, it’s a little difficult to address them all.
I needed to roll up a blunt, just to give this respond the thought it deserves.
Interesting point, I’m relatively young, and I am in some ways, oblivious to pop culture. I’m 21. Only till a couple months ago, did I really start considering finding role models for my life. Maybe it’s a facet of growing up, but I find I am much more interested in knowing about the lives of others, hoping to light the way for me.
When I was younger, I really didn’t have any role models. I didn’t have posters of favorite ball players, or musicians or anything like that. I didn’t want to emulate. I was too interesting in trying to define myself, apart from all the other guys.
However, entering my teenage years, I found myself very lost. Today, I sort of attribute this to the abscence of my dad, but I might just be an idiot. But I realize now, that I was subconciously looking for an older brother. I wanted someone to show me the ropes. But I didn’t, I wasn’t that kind of kid. I was far too independant (or perhaps distant) to form that type of relationship with anyone, everyone just assumed I knew what the hell I was doing.
So I looked for information online and such, for what I thought it meant ‘to be a man’. Anyway, that aspect of my life pertained to more than just male sex roles, but they were certainly included.
Honestly, the closest I ever really saw to a male sex role, was a black rapper. Or the rich white guy. As an asian male, we didn’t get the girl.
At least, that’s the other asian guy’s story. Me personally, I was too focused on my problems at home to really care about girls (yea…I can’t believe it either ) But when I did find a girl that interested me, I zeroed in very naturally. It just seemed to work out. Looking back at it, I really can’t believe it either.
You say that walking up and asking her out bluntly wouldn’t work, and maybe that is the case, but every date I’ve gone on has been exactly that.
“Hey, you wanna go out with me sometime?” –>“Insert agreement of choice” –> Date
You could argue that the PUA and his Starbucks line is actually a method to save face. Incidentally, you don’t need to save face, if you’re really an alpha. You’ll ask for what you want with no apologies. That’s how I see directly asking a girl out. ‘Would you like to go on a date?’ ‘No? Okay, see ya…how about you? ()’
Yes, it’s all strange, some of it true in some cases, other times not so accurate. Can’t change people, I guess. Not sure what I can say on the subject
I think there needs to be less emphasis on getting ‘respect’ and more emphasis on ‘humility’. My mom may have been crazy and hasn’t taught me a thing about building a good relationship, but she did instill good manners in me, and constantly reminded me to be humble.
I hate to say it, because it is said so often, but there are a lot of people that feel entitled, who shouldn’t. Yes, I write in the pet peeves thread about people driving slow and such, and some may see that as me feeling entitled, or acting as such.
But I feel that it goes beyond those mundane aspects. It’s more about the general perspective of ‘well it isn’t my responsibility’. All too often, the justification in our society is ‘Well, it isn’t against the law.’ My favorite response to that is that slavery used to be legal. IMO, the law is a good way to set general behavioral guidelines, but it is not justification for disrespectful/malicious actions towards individuals or society as a whole. Corporations in particular are very guilty of this.
I don’t know why, but I happened to maintain from a very early age that all I needed was food and shelter to survive, but I wanted friends, family, a toy, etc…and today, this translates to, I’m not gonna bitch because I have it good.
That mindset really helps me when someone else talks about how much they want something. Yea, I have an HDTV, I drive a nice car, and I would certainly miss them. But never do I think, my life sucks, and this would make it not suck. Or the latest thing is the best and the rest aren’t worth it. It’s always along the lines of ‘Hey, that would be nice to have..can’t have it? Darn. Oh well. Moving on.’ But..damn man..some people today ought to marry brands, they love them so much. I have a friend in particular who is very brand oriented and it annoys me a bit, but whatever, it’s stressing his life, not mine.
Certainly not in entirety, but we do know what we don’t want, which sort of helps fill in the blanks of what we do want.
Interesting that this comes up, recently I’ve been taking steps to improve my relationship with my mom, thinking that a healthy relationship with my mom will help keep my relationship with women healthier, actually all my relationships as I have a bad habit of falling out of touch. I used be out of the house all the time, gone all weekend friday to sunday, and I loved leaving randomly without any notice. I like being unpredictable, in fact I relish it, and I wonder sometimes if that comes from the unpredictability of my mom.(Coincidentally also habit of my mom’s, she makes new friends very easily, but has trouble keeping old ones. Reminiscent of my lack of contact, but perhaps with different motivations.)
Anyways, I guess we’ll see.
Funny but true. I think most of the girls I’ve been with, when asked how we met, she always replied ‘I dunno, we kinda just met and now we’re here.’ (Ironically I’ll say the same thing because I don’t wanna get into details) But the fact of the matter is that we didn’t just meet. I ducked, weaved, and dodged through the crowd with sweaty palms, to meet you. I’m risking social humilitation if I fail, from both girls and guys. I did my best to come up with jokes and make you comfortable. It didn’t just happen.
But I agree, it is difficult to appreciate each others roles, when both roles are not valued by our society. I’ll put it this way, if men have trouble appreciating the role of men, how difficult might it be for a woman to appreciate the role of men and vice versa? Males are the initiators, our power is through action. We were given larger bodies, larger muscles for a reason. Not because we are superior, but because we are built for a different purpose. You don’t use a screwdriver when you need a hammer. You don’t use salt when the recipe calls for flour. That being said, having specific purposes does not necessarily exclude other possibilities, that’s the beauty of freewill. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to act the role, but don’t condemn it. If you want to bake your bread with salt instead of flour, be my guest.
Heh, exactly. If you find yourself in an American football game, don’t try and play it like soccer even if the rest of the world calls it football. You are in the situation you are, and you need to play by its rules. Can you defy gravity?
I think remapping our biological imperatives would be very hard. Think of the trouble we are having developing AI. How much harder would it be to develop a new reproductive system that is not only successful in our current situation, but can adapt to new situations down the road? There’s no denying that our current reproductive system is very successful, and has so far, adapted well to the demands placed on it. We will see if that remains true. Who knows? Perhaps the ability to remap our genes is the key to a new, approaching environment change (environment meaning, social environment), to ensure our reproductive system will not fail in the future.
I don’t wish to use political correctness as a guideline for any system. IMO, PC’s perspective is too negative. To clarify, yes we shouldn’t be using hateful terms, etc.. but that’s exactly it. Why the hell do we need to tell each other, not to hate? I would hope it’s obvious that when a person is descriminated against, they would understand that the people they descriminate against feel exactly the same way as them. It was a turning point for me when I really realized that the pain I feel is the very same pain that any other person feels.
Exactly, but some people fail to see that distinction. Also, I think there is too much tendency to fill in the blanks negatively. Oh, so our role excludes us from pursuing careers and such. No, that’s your choice to make, but that role is there whether you like it or not.
If there are only women and one gay guy, and he is expected to repopulate the earth, he has to choice to play the role of the male and reproduce, or he can choose not to. (This is, of course sidestepping the issue of homosexuality being a ‘choice’. That’s not a discussion I’m trying to bring up, and it may come into question whether he would be able to ejaculate if he were truly gay, but whatever, I say with his eyes closed, he can just imagine whoever the hell he wants to and it’ll work out. Who knows..I’ve never been in that position. )
Warren, Phya, Mark, your responses are food for thought and I find it difficult to respond in kind, as I have very little reference beyond my own experiences and that of those around me.
I think culture, as in the media, other people and the perceived opinionss that may not be there make it difficult for us to appreciate both our own and the opposite sex’ gender role.
Society may have changed, but our body chemistry is for the majority of people the same way it was tenthousand years age. Men are rewarded when they have high testosterone levels, women are rewarded when they have high oxytocin levels. There is a minority of women who are wired more like men and vice versa, to keep things complex
Traditional role models ensure that there are daily rituals that raise men’s testosterone and women’s oxytocin. A man helping a woman in her coat raises his testosterone and her oxytocin, a woman admiring a man’s accomplishment raises his testosterone and if he accomplished something for her, her oxytocin levels, two men going on an extreme sports trip raises both their testosterone levels and two women going to the spa raises their oxytocin levels.
Men protect and support women, women appreciate and admire men, men compete with men and women cooperate with eachother in a world that optimally supports chemical and hormonal happinesss with behaviour.
Nowadays men are being told that women don’t need support and protection, women are told they don’t need to appreciate and admire men, and everyone is alternately competing and crushing eachother or cooperating.
Women feel bad when they have to appreciate or admire a man who is not being there for her and looking out for her interests, men feel bad when they have to protect or support women who who don’t look up to them or show appreciation for their help.
When men and women compete with eachother, men get low testosterone causing them to be withdrawn and unable to feel attracted when they lose and women don’t get rewarded that much chemically when they win, so it certainly does not make them feel attractive or attracted. When they cooperate, women get rewarded, but men just get bored because there is nothing to stimulate testosterone.
When a man sees an attractive woman and asks her out and she says yes, his testosterone is stimulated threefold. First because she is attractive, second because of the risk and third because he wins. If he was rejected, his testostorone would plummet and if the girl did not mean anything to him, he would be neither much attracted nor involved in a risk, so the reward from winning would not be that great. When he plas a date and she tells him the date was great, he gets another testosterone boost.
Women asking out men on the whole just does not work. Women arent being reinforced with testosterone if a man says yes, but still feel rejected and unhappy if a man says no. If she takes him out and he appreciate that, she does not feel more love or attraction unless she is masculinely wired.
I personally would not find a man attractive if I had to ask him out myself, so I don’t do that. When a man is very much attracted and feels a great amount of fear, asking a girl out anyway is a show of great courage, and that is very attractive. I do show appreciation after a date, and I wouldn’t feel confortable to say thank you for just approaching. You don’t really see if a guy is genuine or just a player untill he took you out.
Not all women are the same. I don’t think the majority of women will stand you up if you ask them out in a normal way. You live in another country, so that may be true where you are or it may be true in your circle. If so, that is very sad indeed and a reason for those women to clean up their act. Not that that is helpful knowledge for a man…
I think if women learn that they can’t say no to a date with a man or if men will try to argue her out of her no, she may be more likely to lie about it. It may also be buyers remorse if she said yes while drunk or if a friend later said you were a dork. I think American women also fear that men will expect sex when they take you out, or feel that men feel entitled to sex and they don’t want to feel obligated. I have heard that sentiment from some.
I think these women are probably like men who ask for numbers but don’t call.
I personally would not come to starbucks with a guy who asked like that, I’d feel I was tagging along and not really welcome. Granted, some women will go despite not feeling their presence is desired, but I’d say those women would have self esteem issues and they would also pursue a relationship with a man who would not want them. I guess if you were a PUA looking for just sex, that might be a great demographic to aim at. I guess it all depends on what you want and with whom.
I agree with you! Also, what I said about taking risks earlier, a man who does not shun them is a lot more masculine.
About Asian men; I don’t think there is anything about them that makes them intrinsically less attractive or less maculine other than that they are out of fashion in the US. In my mom’s country, there are many black and mixed race women marrying Chinese men. There arent many white people so those hardly factor in there, but no one there sees a Chinese man as less attractive than a black man or another race.
Creating sexual attraction and consummating it are two different things. Actually, the guy who represses his sexual energy is another side of the same coin as the guy who tries to sleep with women too early on for sexual energy to seriously build up. Both are on empty all the time.
What is attractive to me is a guy who is comfortable with having his tank filled up so to speak, without feeling the need to immediately go for a ride.
The neuter and the slut are far more alike than different.
I read some of Lowen’s work. What I learned from him is that the armor a human carries gives him a lower capacity for excitement. He litterally cannot bare to have all that excitement inside his low capacity body. That describes to me, both the neuter and the slut. If you close of your heart during sex, which most people who sleep around do to avoid getting attached, you are cheating yourself out of the full orgasm.
Lowen actually mention that the ultimate sexual setisfaction is impossible without total commitment.
We can let go of sexual repression while at the same time holding on to our discipline, our boundaries and our control over our impulses. I’m not saying it is easy, but it can be done.
I very much agree about this!
I think today’s culture is giving dating much more weight than it intrinsically has. I prefer it to just be an afternoon or evening out with an interesting stranger, a time to have fun together and get to know eachother.
Making it like a job interview just ruins the dating stage and I actually think overly rationalising the process closes you off emotionally and makes it impossible to really built a relationship. I think some people are just too impatient to get there and forget to smell the roses along the way. Also, when you start talking marriage and kids in the first few dates, so are essentially saying that just the look and the superficial personality are enough to make you seriously consider marriage. That looks unsuccesful and repressed and makes a person unattractive. Or it can make you look like a player who just says those things to get sex. I’d rather my looks and initial impression just inspire you to want to share your favorite restaurant or dancing club, not your life, body and soul.
In reality, it is probably more likely a sign that someone is projecting and fantasizing. I think this does not have to be a bad thing per se, yet if you base a serious or sexual relationship on projections and fantasies, you’ll never feel safe to shatter them and you either feel stuck or the relationship blows up.
I feel it is possible for a woman to be genuine and still appeal to the protective instincts of a man. I feel it is possible for a man to be the head of the household without being a john or a control freak.
I think some women are too chickened to display their real vulnerabilities to men and then put up an act of narcissism instead just like the starbucks tag along guy. If I ask a man to get the chair from the attic because I am scared to walk the steep ladder with the heavy chair and spiders around, it sounds different than if I order a man to get it because women just dont do that.
I know women who appreciate their man for being the head of the household, but who do not make sexuality the source of appreciation. A regular sex life is a normal part of their happy marriage. They just tell their husband they are happy he goes out to win the bread every day and she would not be able to take care of the children or cook healthy meals or have time for herself without his efforts. I feel that kind of marriage is just as much of a partnership as the kind where both work outside the home.
I think a single woman needs to be to some extent independent in order to be able to hold out for genuine love and partnership. A woman who would starve on her own will marry a man she is not attracted to or who sees little value in her to get bread on the table. A woman who can pay for all her necessities can afford to wait for love, since she has her basic needs met. It’s the whole Maslov’s pyramid thing.
At the same time, many of the women who feel they can raise a family on their own and do as good a job as a mother and father together can are missing some points.
I know one woman who basically does the “nurturer” side well; she cooks healthy organic meals, can find good bargains for clothes and toys teaches her children things, shows them love, nurses her baby on cue etc. etc. However, she would not be able to do so without government support. Some other taxpayers are taking the ‘provider’ role, without ever experiencing the satisfaction of seeing those children grow up and be happy and being appreciated for it. When her ex-inlaws buy her children good shoes and more expensive toys, she cannot show her appreciation for that, but instead feels insulted that she is not able to provide the same and reacts with anger. She is not really independent and that eats at her.
I know another woman who has a good job and works full time and had a baby alone. She can very well provide a child with everything he needs and wants materially; nice house, nice clothes, money for college, nice toys and everything. But she leaves her child to the care of underpaid, overworked people at daycare. After work she makes a microwave meal for herself and spends some ‘quality’ time with her child, then does housework while her child is in bed and collapses into a near-coma from being so tired. She is frazzled and short tempered because of bearing a double burden. She also feels no one is appreciating her and is expecting her kid to do so when it is bigger, which could very well cause a big disappointment in puberty.
Looking frazzled and tired and responding curtly to others also makes her less attractive to men even though she really does want a partner. She had to give up some of her femininity do do what she is doing.
Women who have a good husband, whether the play the provider or the nurturer role, have it a lot easier. Not only do they experience love in their live, but they also have more time to be with friends, read a book or take a hot bath. That in turn gives them the energy to be more patient, more gentle and more mature with everyone in their life. You need to have some measure of independence in order to find a good husband, but once you have, you can also feel save in recognizing how much you depend on him and appreciate what he brings you and enables you to do.
Butterfly, That was a remarkable and right on post, Reps to you!
Here in this good old USA, somewhere, somehow, someone forgot the basic laws of nature.
and because of our callousness and stupidity, we are forever wallowing (both male and female) in The Game, The Rules, The Real Rules, Not into you, internet porn etc. (the list goes on and on), and it has ruined our ability of actually finding our mates that are right for us and relating to them in an authentic way.
At the end of the day, men are men and women are women, but men have forgotten how to be men, or maybe they are too scared of rejection so they deal with it by withdrawing and giving in to pick- up skills demeaning women written from an obvious reject.
Women just as much to blame, fearing any show of vulnerability, we become hard as rocks, bull-dozing over any male coming our way, not even interested in the many valuable differences and how they complement and gift us.
Its no wonder we have one of the lowest growing population rates and one of the highest divorce rates in the world.
It has taken me longer than I had intended to get back to this thread. Sorry for my slow response.
When I was much younger I used to smoke marijuana frequently. When I started taking a zinc supplement I found that I not only had a clearer mind, but I quit craving weed. I could smoke if I wanted to, but it wasn’t so important. I found that 50mg of zinc amino acid chelate worked well. For me the zinc gluconate, which is a very common form in vitamin tablets, was NOT so helpful. Zinc, of course, is imprortant for many physiological functions and most people don’t get nearly enough of it in their diets.
I loved your post Butterfly. I rep’ed you for it before.
Re-reading the last few posts I am reminded of something that happened to me… well, almost a year ago, now. Hopefully I can discuss it without becoming too emotional. There is a French restaurant in this town which is supposed to be the very best restaurant in the area. I had been looking for an excuse to go there. I have since given up and intend to avoid it. It is obviously a curse. But I asked several women, on one occasion or another, to have dinner with me at this fine restaurant. Never a positive response. And you have to make reservations and all so you can’t really use the “PUA Starbucks line” we’ve discussed above, telling a girl to tag along if she wants to.
So last October I ask a woman who says yes. Of course, the obvious happens. She stands me up. After forty years of this sh*t, I should be accustomed to it, but it still just infuriates me. I got an email from her the day before telling me how she is looking forward to it, blah, blah, blah… The day comes; she is hiding from me. I call and call and call. She can’t answer or return my call. WTF? I remember a thread where there’s a woman complaining her boyfriend never takes here anywhere. She wishes she’d meet someone who’d treat her better. She and Mark go back and forth about this. I just roll my eyes and keep my hands off the keyboard. Because I know – with 100% metaphysical certitude – if I asked this woman out, she’d stand me up. Maybe that is why men are reluctant to take their girlfriends out to nice places… Maybe it’s not the money… Maybe they are just tired of getting jerked around at the last minute. Ladies, please tell me. What is hard wired into a female’s DNA that makes her believe that this kind of behavior is appropriate?
I mean with a sixteen year old girl maybe you shouldn’t expect any better. But with grown women it doesn’t get any better. Forty years of this crap. If I ask a woman out who I don’t know well (and she accepts), there is a better than 50% chance she will stand me up. Am I the only man who experiences this? It does seem to be American women. So I guess it is cultural rather than DNA. When I am dealing with women who were born overseas this absolutely NEVER happens.
I know stuff happens. But didn’t I at least deserve a phone call preferably before – but if not then the next day – to say, “I’m so sorry I was abducted by aliens and couldn’t get back to you yesterday.” Why is this childish, rude behavior endemic to American women? Or do they just do it because they sense it will infuriate me? Shouldn’t it?
I like your analysis here, Julia, except that I am not ready to denigrate the PUA skills. These are just an attempt (a necessary development) to get past the bitchshields that women throw up indescriminately so they can get home unbothered and complain about how hard it is to meet a good man.
I remember reading a story about some European models who were visiting America for a photo shoot. And they complained that American men are afraid of women. One of the girls explains that in Europe she looks at a man and smiles and he comes over and talks to her. In America men are oblivious to her. I am not so sure it is cowardice. In America it just doesn’t work that way. If a strange woman just looks at you an smiles for no reason she is either an undercover cop trying to entrap you for soliciting prositiution or she’s selling Amway or something. Last time I was foolish enough to react to a smiling woman downtown I got this hard luck story about how she just got out of the hospital and needed money to get home, blah, blah, blah…
In America we seem, for some reason, to resent doing this for each other. Women especially seem to have this chip on their shoulder attitude about centuries of being oppressed by males and if they do anything to make a man feel good they are consorting with the enemy. Someone in my household watches Oprah and I sat down to watch a few minutes of a show addressing exactly this topic. I believe the example was opening a pickle jar. But they couldn’t just leave it with the man feeling good about opening the jar for the woman and the woman feeling good that the man enjoyed being helpful to her. Oh, no, Oprah then has to go on about how we (women) could open the pickle jar ourselves but how advantageous it is to manipulate men’s egos, blah, blah, blah… In Butterfly’s terms she is negating the woman’s oxytocin rush in exchange for an adrenyline rush. It is not about caring for each other. It’s about manipulation. It’s narcissistic arrogance with a vengeful twinge, which seems to have permeated our society. It was a little thing, but it really pissed me off. From what I’ve seen of Oprah, she is way above most of those daytime TV shows, but sometimes she can be a complete bitch and apparently not realize it at all.
Well, this post has been more venting than some of my earlier more thoughtful posts, but these are the things that are still on my mind. I hope someone will comment.
I’m sorry to hear you get stood up a lot, it is unacceptable behaviour. Does this happen to other men a lot too?
I’m not sure why women do it to you, but my guess is buyers remorse.
I know a lot of women worldwide do have a hard time saying no and have not learned how to reject a man gracefully. That may be a reason for her to say yes when she is not really interested. You individually could try to prevent unmeant yesses by monitoring body language more, or perhaps by asking out a different kind of woman or building up more slowly. On a cultural level, if people would try to teach their teenage daughters to reject a man gracefully, that would be helpful. Grown women could also learn that skill.
Now as for what may go through her head on the day of the date; I have learned that many American women think or fear that sex is expected within a few dates. This may be a reason why they feel a pressure to either not go or to see it as more than just a date. I have also heard ladies say that men in the US sometimes respond aggressively to rejection, so fear of that happening could play a part. Not knowing how to reject a man gracefully also makes it harder to call him and cancel or to go and tell him you don’t feel a spark. I guess it is mainly a lack of courage.
To remedy this, women in general could learn to be more courageous and have good manners. Even a cancellation to a man’s answering machine is better than nothing. Men in general could help lower the pressure on dating women be not reacting aggressively to reaction and by not acting entitled to sex. Not saying all men and women do these things, but avoiding them as a group helps. What you can personally do to avoid lack of enthusiasm is making yourself more attractive, so that your dates are really looking forward to a date.
About the pickle jar thing; it can be threatening for women do see another woman do things for her husband that see does not do for hers, especially if she feels insecure about her marriage. For example, if a neighbour dresses nicely for her husband, and the other women on that road dress for comfort, they may feel like letting her do her thing and seeing it have success will obligate them to do the same, so they laugh at her and tell her she looks like a whore. Now sometimes husbands do suggest outfits that are inappropriate and sometimes it takes a helpful friend to point out what is not normal for a husband to ask, so it makes sense to listen to other women’s opinion and sometimes it is very hard to tell the two situations apart. Back to the pickle jar; if other women told Oprah that having to ask for help with the pickle jar means being submissive, vulnerable or dependant and if Oprah learned that the vulnerable get hurt and abused, she will want to avoid feeling vulnerable by learning how to open her own jars. It is common among women who have witnessed mistreatment of women, children and other vulnerable persons to want to become strong at any cost. When these people reach a critical mass, they start to have a serious effect on others through the previous mechanism. Someone like Oprah counts as 500 neighbourhood women psychologically to a fervent viewer of her shows. The sad thing is that women who open their own pickle jars often later complain that their husband never helps them with the trash, the repairs etc. They have not realised that they removed all the rewards for him to do so by showing him who is boss with the pickle jar. Then they try to nag or demand him into taking out the trash which makes him associate trash with nagging and bossing. Finally she feels like a workhorse who has no husband but a big child. And the plot thickens…
One thing I would like to add is that while PUA methods may get you laid now, it will, if enough men use is, make women even less likely to want to be feminine. Sensitive women who are willing to show vulnerability will be destroyed in a world full of PUA’s and withdraw from the dating scene completely. Competitive, crass women will be better skilled to “do unto others before they do unto you” and will teach their secrets to girls. Everything that hurts and angers people will have a backlash.
Well, I don’t know that this will help, but I’ve been stood up a time or two as well, and have learned a thing or two along the way.
First off, I’ve learned that many girls in the early to mid twenties will stand a guy up or even blow off a friend at the drop of a hat, just because a better offer or something more interesting came up. And no, they don’t feel any need to let the other person know that they changed their plans. I have no idea what happened to common courtesy with Y generation, but it just doesn’t seem to exist.
Another thing I’ve learned is that many women older than the mid twenties crowd will accept dates, then blow them off when the date involves an expensive dinner, or something else where the guys planning on spending a pretty penny. I think this probably has to do with butterfly’s assessment of the woman thinking that the guy is going to expect sex.
Several years ago there was a 25 year old girl that I really liked, she also lived a couple doors down from me, which made it convenient. We dated a couple of times, but nothing really serious. At least 1/2 the time we’d plan on doing something she’d blow me off though, without a even a phone call. At one point she had to fly to Houston to interview for a flight attendend position and asked me if I would take her to the airport to catch a 6:00 AM Saturday flight, then pick her up later in the afternoon. I stayed home Friday night and went to bed early so I’d be able to wake up at 4:00 AM and get her to the airport. Saturday morning rolls around and she’s nowhere to be found. no phone call, nothing! By the afternoon I was actually worried that something had happened to her, cause she had been really excited about the interview. Saturday evening she calls and I ask WTF happened to her, and she replies that she decided to stay at a friends house last night and drove to the airport herself. Then one time and one time only, we had made plans for dinner the next day, and I ended up not making it. Granted, standing her up was semi intentional, but I figured it would give her a dose of her own medicine. She absolutely blew up at me for it, and when I pointed out that she had repeatedly done the same thing to me, it made no difference to her. In her mind she felt that standing me up was perfectly ok, but getting stood up herself wasn’t. We didn’t talk again after that.
I get stood up less these days, but it still does happen on occasion. A couple things that I think have helped to lessen the frequency of being stood up are: I don’t make first dates a big deal or plan anything extravagent. If the date is planned more than a day in advance, I’ll call the day before the date to make sure that we’re still on, but other than that I don’t harp on it. And, probably most importantly, I don’t act too excited or make a big deal of it: I don’t know enough about the girl to know if I’m even going to like her, and the date is just that, an opportunity to start getting to know each other.
And, on the occasion that I still do get stood up, I look at it as her loss and won’t even bother to follow up with a phone call to see what happened, or give them the satisfaction of feeling that they got the best of me.
I’ve had a several girls that I’d met at my usual nightclub stand me up, and at least with a couple of them the next time they saw me they asked why I stopped calling. I told each that they’d already blown me off once and shown me what little respect they had for me, and asked them why they even thought I’d want to go out with them now. One girl said fine, walked away and we never spoke again. But, a couple of the others started pursuing me, but I’d already lost interest.
I don’t know if anything I’ve said here will be helpful, but hopefully you can at least take something from it.
I disagree, and I’ll even suggest to you other men that the letter approach is the wrong way to go. It’s too impersonal for a situation where Data could’ve easily spoke to the girl face to face. I personally applaud him for manning up and speaking to her directly. I could critique him…lose all the “errs”, “ums” and “uhs”…but the fact is he faced his fear and did what he’d have to eventually do anyway.
I’m not completely sure my delivery would’ve been the same. I would’ve dangled a little bit out there, but my main focus would’ve been to get her to go out with me for drinks, as one female already suggested. All Data needed to do was bait the hook to get her to want to go out for more conversation. Then, while they were out and relaxed (you can’t really get relaxed at work…even if you took a walk outside), he could open up his heart.
I’m going to continue to read this thread from beginning to end, but Data, I’m pulling for you man. You remind me of a dear friend of mine, and you almost look like him. I hope you listen to the advice of the FEMALES here; they’re uncovering secrets to you – things that are so blatantly obvious to them, but secrets to most men.
My only suggestion to you is to continue to keep the laughter going (I see you’re already trying to keep the mood light), but to project more confidence when speaking. The shy bit will get you “cute” points, but it will only take you so far. Ultimately, girls will begin to evaluate you on your self confidence.
Actually, here’s another suggestion: play out every scenario in your mind, but have ALL of them end in success rather than failure. It’s ok to throw in all sorts of curveballs, but plan for each possible curve and your strategy to mitigate the obstacle. I want to see you project yourself as a winner in all things. ALL things.
Damn (pardon the French), but I should’ve finished reading Warren’s post before I replied to it. To but it bluntly, Data, he’s spot on. I succiently put it as an outward display of lack of confidence, but I can’t object to what Warren said…except for the letter.
To me, the letter is more like you playing this out in your head and finding a successful pathway no matter what obstacle comes your way. If it helps you to write it down, then, by all means, write it down! But I wouldn’t suggest the letter approach for something that is best suited for face to face contact. Perhaps if you were called away immediately, then the letter would be a tool to let her know about your affections, but you’d STILL have to follow that up with a face to face encounter at some point.
Anyway, I guess I should refrain from commenting until I finish the story.
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But I realize now, that I was subconciously looking for an older brother. I wanted someone to show me the ropes. But I didn’t, I wasn’t that kind of kid. I was far too independant (or perhaps distant) to form that type of relationship with anyone, everyone just assumed I knew what the hell I was doing.
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