OH YEAH! Well, you can tell that dirty, underhanded, clone of mine that I have a message for him.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/OdinsSoldierNS/squidbillies.jpg
You have way to much time on your hands.
Let me clarify: you’re saying that an error in logic is inherently disrespectful of people with an opposing point of view? And therefore such error is offensive?
I’m curious to know what a person who has so offended logic should do? For example, what repairs would you make for errors in logic in your first comments to steveo?
I submit that if every error in logic wounds your emotional balance and causes anger, displeasure, or resentment, then you’re likely to be upset with most, if not all, human discourse.
BTW, I have at least one, if not more, opposing (or potentially opposing) points of view and I did not feel disrespected at all. Steveo seemed to me to be expressing his position forcefully, I agree. He could have, perhaps, been more modest in how he fashioned his positions but I sensed exclamatory urgency in his assertiveness, not disrespect.
I’d characterize that original post as “impassioned exhortation” than “angry rant” or “demeaning tirade.”
Well, how would your position differ if I add one word to your interpretation of steveo’s statements:“… and if you don’t see the results of pheremones it is probably because you are not so accomplished.”
I didn’t sense a tone of arrogance in steveo’s statements; and I don’t consider the sentence you quoted directly (“I do hope …”) to be a position of superiority. To me, it beseeches the reader to consider the broader picture to appreciate the requisites of “success.”
Is it possible that the inferred tone and/or position was added by your interpretation and not inherent in his remarks? I submit that steveo’s comments are not so definitive that your interpretation is the only one possible.
Yes, I do really. I think that it’s fair game to question a person’s mental set and expectations if they say they are performing an experiment (which you have performed and in which you consistently obtain objective results) and tell you that “nothing happens.”
Any scientist worth his or her salt will ask that question in the appropriate circumstances.
It is equally fair game for someone who gets no result to question whether the results others get are imagined or are the effects of some other cause.
So I say, yes, speak out. We’re big boys and girls here, a little elbow contact under the basket is normal. No harm, no foul.
Your original comment
could be construed as an attack on steveo’s character, could it not?
So perhaps it’s not so obvious to everyone at all times.
wait-
THAT WAS A CLONE ???
Good God woman, I think you broke the clone.
I wasn’t questioning your motives, I was objecting to the content of your post.
WTF?? Another ad hominem attack. So sad.
Apparently untrue, as you state below.
Where did I miss the boat? What are you talking about? Is it when I said I find it offensive that the only explanation you can find for someone not noticing results with pheromones is that they are not a good enough observer (and after Lor went to pains to tell me that you were not addressing that comment to me)?
No, I’m saying that a respectful debate requires repect for differing points of view. Dismissing opposing points of view as being the result of incompetence, stupidity, or whatever and therefore having no merit is disrespectful and offensive. There’s no question of an error in logic.
If sincere and not meant sarcastically, that would be an improvement. Changing “probably” to “possibly” would be even better. It’s the difference between “you’re wrong and if you don’t see it you’re blind” and “maybe you’re mistaken.” It also would have helped if the rest of the post showed the openness to opposing viewpoints that you adding “probably” was meant to show.
OK, so you and I disagree here. I think it’s one thing to say there’s a question of observer bias to work out and another thing to say what SteveO said.
I guess it was, though I don’t know why. A character attack seeks to belittle or discredit the person behind the argument or action rather than addressing the argument or action itself. (The kind of thing Lor and SteveO have been saying to/about me.) Saying “I find your comment/action offensive” is not a character attack. A character attack would be saying things like “don’t listen to SteveO, he’s an imbecile” or “SteveO must be on Androtic’s payroll to write a post like that.”
I can tell you know the difference, MarkL, because your posts have remained respectful and avoided character attack even as they are highly critical. That’s all I’m asking for. I wasn’t expecting that to be so controversial.
It’s really an important difference. If you have respect for other people and their opinions then you have a discussion within a group that builds bonds within the group. If you get into character attacks and belittling then you have a divisive discussion that splits the group into factions.
Of course, splitting a big group into little factions is part of the mating dance, not to mention a huge component of national politics, so a lot of people do it unconsciously. It can even be fun if you’re the one doing the belittling. That’s why it’s so important to guard against it.
"1) The first and most important rule of this forum, is to be kind to others, unless they first insult you personally. If you must initiate aggression, be aggressively nice.
2) Remember that most people mean well! Since you can’t see facial expressions online, read their words in an upbeat voice tone. It helps."
Words (and emphasis) by MHarris. 
You’re alright, kSage; I respect your position. I know I can be received as bombastic and can convery a certainty that’s beyond “confidence” unless I temper my self-expression.
I’ll confess that I don’t expect completely logical contributions by all who come here. Some offerings are more academic, some more poetic.
Still, someone I have a lot of admiration for once wrote “Poets who read their work in public may have other bad habits.”
If I’m not careful now, I might wax poetic myself 
well heres what markl,
we have gotten to know you.same with steveo.
we know how to recieve you because well, your mark!
someone fairly new might want to get to know the people they percieve differently than everyone else;
if i was the only one who took offence to someone’s post, i would take responsibility for owning the button that was able to be pushed.
thats all.
hey, we all have buttons,LOL.
if ksage’s post was begun in the lounge, where other issues are taken up that are not pheromone related (some hardly mention pheromones at all ) then it would have been better recieved, i think.
Ah, Lor, you are wise.
BTW, I would find it ironic if you bit my lip.
Ironic, or erotic? …just sayin’
HMMM this is a very interesting little tidbit I just read on the net.
Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a distrust of others and a constant suspicion that people around you have sinister motives. People with this disorder tend to have excessive trust in their own knowledge and abilities and usually avoid close relationships with others. They search for hidden meanings in everything and read hostile intentions into the actions of others. They are quick to challenge the loyalties of friends and loved ones and often appear cold and distant to others. They usually shift blame to others and tend to carry long grudges.
Ksage now I am really confused. I found this posted on your thread “Nothing So Far” (First days with A314, Instant Shine and Instant Openness: no clear reactions yet - #3 by Jasmin) This post by Jasmin says exactly what I said in this thread, but it was specifically addressed to you in your thread.
Hmmmmmm 
Let me see if I can clear this up for you.
I found her post mildy offensive, but I chose not to call her on it because (a) it was the second response to the first post I made on the forum, (b) it was clear she was trying to be helpful in response to my request for help, (c) she didn’t say anything that made me think she was intending to be belittling in this or any other post of hers I read, and (d) her comment was directed specifically at me, and since I can take care of myself I get less offended by that than by similar comments directed at general targets and addressed to a wide audience. It also helped that her posts lacked any kind of personal boasting, contained lots of clear, easy-to-understand information, and had an overall encouraging tone.
If instead of starting the post with “I understand, not everyone ‘gets it’ on the first day” she started it with “Poor baby! I’m sorry no one commented to you about how much weight you lost or asked about the mood you were in” I would have called her on it.
Hey Ksage,
You know what I reread my post and I can see your point. I really meant no offense and it certainly was never meant as a put-down to you or anybody else. I think if you take the time to get to know me and my happy-go-lucky personality you might read into things differently.
I can appreciate all your points and if I am sorry I’ve upset you, it was not intentional. This is me and this is who I will continue to be. If that irks you well not much I can do there.
I always have the best intentions when I report about my awesome pheromone experiences. Do I boast about them? YOU DAMN TOOTIN. Will I continue to boast? YUP!
Will you boast about your experiences? I sure hope so because I love reading about other peoples stuff.
Do I know how to read body language? I actually carry a notebook to write down every movement I see so I can journal its meaning. Sick, but extremely important to my journey. I recommend everybody buys a book, or DVD, and study it. The knowledge is invaluable when it comes to pheromones.
Again though, this is getting out of hand and it is not good for the forum users who are here to help. Take my posts as they are and read them while laughing, or at least with a huge smile, and I think you’ll see my intentions are meant well.
Anyway, like I said I can’t change who I am, so please try and not take offense at what I say. I mean well to everyone.
OH yeah everybody, I’m up to girlfriend #5 and she is smoking hot. The resemblance to our very own Jasmin is uncanny.
Hey, that’s a rad idea!
I end up journalling a lot of my/our pheromone tests, as well. “Our” being some of the core testers I have [and abuse!] here, locally.
You should see my little treo. It’s soooo covert. I just pop it out when I notice something in the field, and I pretend I’m writing a text message. And SOMETIMES, the hit is SO OVERT that I take a picture or video of it for my personal file (I don’t remember to carry releases for people I watch on the street, so I don’t often share them with anyone outside my core testing group… doh! It’s so easy here, being in LA, to get away with being an undercover reporter… )
It looks so natural for me to carry around the pda and just casually pull it out to enter things as I see them… Otherwise I wouldn’t remember! (Whenever I go through my field notes, I’m always constantly going “OMG! That was THAT mix?!”)
did steveo just tell everyone girlfriend #5 is a Jasmin clone???
hey steveo,got a thing for clones?
do pheros work on them?
SteveO, thank you for considering my comments, reviewing your post, and trying to see things from my perspective. I accept your apology.
I also apologize to you if my comments made you feel personally attacked or ridiculed. That was never my intention. I believe wholeheartedly in loving the sinner no matter how much I hate the sin. Easy in your case because I never felt you were acting with deliberate malice but rather unconsious disregard. Mostly I just wanted you to become aware of these things I complained about, trusting that when you did become aware of them you would make an effort not to repeat them. I’m truly glad you’re happy-go-lucky and generally jolly and I’d like you to stay that way so long as you aren’t relying on putting down others to maintain your jovial mood. I’m sure you can do it (maybe you do it most of the time, even, and this thread was the odd exception).
Here are some guidelines I ask everyone (not just on this board) to follow, but of course I’m in no position to enforce them. I just ask you to consider them and follow them if you feel like they are guidelines you would like to see followed by others and/or believe that the person you aspire to be would follow such guidelines. I certainly do my best to follow them myself:
- No matter how much you hate the sin, love the sinner. Limit criticism and debate to the issues at hand and exclude from debate matters of the participants moral character, abilities, substance use, etc.
- Don’t belittle, deride, or demean. No name calling or teasing unless the recipient has granted permission (but even then beware of going too far and be prepared to do repair work if you cause damage).
- No put downs. It’s generally not helpful to tell people they aren’t good enough, even when it’s true, unless there is a serious saftey issue involved. Go ahead and state your case for how great you are, but don’t use that as an excuse to say you are better than anyone else. If you think someone’s skills are lacking, inquire about it, but give people the benefit of the doubt.
- Be especially on guard against negative comments made toward a group of people rather than an individual. “Trash Talk” can be fun among a few individuals who all agree to it and all take care not to really hurt people’s feelings, but that rarely extends to a whole group of people (other than rival sports teams, where there are other rules in play).
So with that, let’s put the who meta-argument to rest and get back to pheremones, shall we.
SteveO, I look forward to reading some of your detailed notes on the changes in body language each of these pheremones produces and the meaning you assign to them. What meaning do you assign to the woman sitting on my right scratching the outside of her right knee repeatedly while I’m talking to her?
kSage
Clones with programmable brains. They do everything I want. Who said it was a clone?