New fragrances coming -- your input wanted on future scents

PheromoneTalk Archives Messages From Michael
1

Hi everyone.

After Amy returns, we’ll have several new fragrances to share with everyone for testing.

There are 4 we’ve selected for further testing by men, and 2 we’ve selected for further testing by women.

Some of the ones useful for men will be usable for both pheromone odor masking for use as actual colognes.

We’ve asked our perfumers for aquatic oriented, Creed quality fragrances, but with better diffusion than Creed.

We don’t ask for direct ripoffs (who wants a second rate clone of anything??), but we do name brand name colognes for “design theory” and design inspiration. This also lets perfumers know how much the ingredients should cost (should they reach for the soap quality musk or the truly fine fragrance musk?). I’ve found that if you ask for quality reminiscent of most department stores, you tend to get some truly horrible samples. By specifying you want something you could sell at Barney’s, and allowing them to go far above the budget constraints most clients ask for, we get much better results.

The perfumers did a decent job here. Even though they don’t quite have the diffusion characteristics I want, they’re basically nice scent wise. One of these could easily be the scent of the next Ammo Cologne.

The women’s ones are very basic, and will mostly be used for masking. They can be used as perfumes if your interests are in very basic fragrances (which, thankfully, many women and the men who smell them do like).

We’ve asked our perfumers for Comptoir Sud Pacique type design and quality. I think they did well with one and not as well with the other.

Not sure why perfumers seem to have more trouble with fragrances specified for women… we’ve gotten a lot of samples from a lot of perfumers, and we’re not entirely thrilled quite yet. Heck, Amy has done simple mixes in the office that are better than what is often presented to us by professionals.

If the girls reading this can think of fairly simple perfume mixes that can cover pheromone odors (admittedly, most pheromones used in female products do not the objectionable odor some of the male dominant pheromones can have), while a) being likable by most women, and b) being likable by most men (or whoever your target is), then please give some suggestions.

Any specific colognes that can reach these above named goals that are now on the market can also be used as examples. I think Comptoir Sud Pacifique has a great number of these types of scents, but you may have your own ideas. I’d love to hear those ideas!

I am listening, and I will do my best to get somewhere scent-wise that’s compatible with both our design goals and your own personal goals with pheromone products. My preference is actually to get you something even better scent-wise than what you can find at the department store, if at all possible.

Most of what I’ve been smelling at department stores these days are just… well, as many fragrance industry insiders are saying, they’re fancied up laundry detergent scents. Many are “acceptable”, but not really appealing. It seems they are buying from perfumers based entirely on cost, and not quality.

Let’s change that trend a bit, eh? Let’s work on quality first, and then figuring out what we have to do on the money end to deliver it.

A few things I've been wondering.
Hot Couture & MX135
2

Hey Micheal! It’s very good to see you in action again! I hope you are doing well.

My two cents, i really like the fruity, tropical scents personally. I’ve found that the girls like them better as well- a scent that women like because they can relate to it- but manly enough for them to know it belongs on a man and not herself. Neroli is quite nice in this aspect. A scent in the same family would be very exciting.

3

Well I don’t know enough about perfume or pheros for that matter to give any useful feedback. I do know that the one thing that is making my adventures in pheromones unsatisfying is the smell of everything. So far I’ve pretty much hated all the scents. The cookies scent would make a wonderful candle or room freshener, it doesn’t stink, but smells so unsophisticated. The grapefruit is my favorite so far just because it tends to blend away in my perfumes better which all tend to be slightly floral, lighter feminine scents. The neroli and grapefruit instantly give all my perfumes a harsh undertone, I can’t really explain it. It’s very frustrating smelling in a way that I am not happy with and I’m constantly worrying that I smell trashy or overdone now. I really love some of my perfumes and got so many compliments on them. Now I just don’t smell very elegant anymore. lol

I’m a big fan of Vera Wang perfume but I have no idea who their perfumery is. Baby Doll by Yves Saint Laurent has a lot of grapefruit in it and is a very sweet scent. I used it with the grapefruit pheros and it did ok. I doubt it has enough punch to cover cops though.

I do look forward to some new fragrace for women that smell more like good perfume and I can feel confident and elegant wearing. :slight_smile:

4

That sounds great and really looking forward to something different and better then what you have now.

I mostly own high end niche scents right now so I know what you mean about store dept scents, though there are still some good ones that I own that I think just smell great and unique enough to own, for example Dreamer, Carlos Santana, Burberry Touch (nice white musk), Body Kouros ( i got more compliments on this one then any other cologne and only cost me $22)

How about amber variety type?

Most of the ambers that I have tried smell great and have superb sillage where I mean you only need one spray and it is filling the room like Serge Luten’s Ambre Sultan or Montale Blue Amber. If i use more then one spray I am in trouble in fact.

It is kind of late and can maybe go into more suggestions but really looking forward to what is coming down the road

5

Thats good to hear I would like to see more natural ingredients and maybe the strength of the fragrances to be upped to millesime strength. It wood be good to smell a scent like a fresh ocean breeze on a sunny day.:slight_smile:

6

Nice to hear that..
Basicly i am tired of spending 100$ for a designer cologne every month
and i will definatly give the new ones a try.

7

I agree with denec, some amber scent or something “manly” woods, smokey, woody, and incense with a touch of vanilla. Something “dark,” but not too basic. Something like the smell of a distant bonfire at the beach at night, something “unique.”

8

Eh, I’m alive. Not as alive as I’d like be, but hopefully I can research and test my way out of that. :slight_smile:

Anyway, nice to see you, too. You doing well, I hope?

Interesting.

This might be nice for summer, as well areas that remain warm for extended periods of time. Which fruits, specifically, do you like to smell on a woman?

Any perfume examples?

9

Body Kouros is one of my few colognes for men that I like. Most people, however, would find it too dirty, too “French”. Of course, if we’re forced to move out of the US market for awhile, I guess a focus on “clean” scents doesn’t matter too much.

I’ve noticed that more recent bottles of Body Kouros do not smell the same as old. They appear to have gone through a reformulation, perhaps due to changing IFRA regulations.

I’ll order samples of the other ones you’ve mentioned.

I like those two houses, but I cannot remember what either smells like. It’s been quite awhile. I’ll add them to my list to check out.

Aktuo is “amber” based.

I understand that amber is sort of like white chocolate. Everyone has their own interpretation of what it’s supposed to smell like, and how to formulate it.

Our scent goals in the immediate moment are to get something that’s as exciting as possible, but very acceptable to most noses. Unfortunately, the latter design criteria (acceptable to as many noses as possible) tends to be the one that drags everything down.

If we’re going to survive as the economy goes haywire, we do need a high acceptability formula so we can make some sort of consumer project. Often, when it comes to fragrance, it becomes the “art” of offending the fewest people possible.

The original Ammo scent was acceptable AND interesting to quite a few people. Unfortunately, it contained substances which inhibited diffusion of a number of molecules. It made designing a compatible pheromone package very difficult, and in terms of economics… well, less diffusion = higher costs for us in terms of androgens.

On the brighter side in terms of scent, I’ve also been making the rounds of some of the key formulation houses, asking them to send along samples of colognes too expensive for any of the department store “fragrance houses” to sell. Real love projects where no expense is spared. That excited them.

Actually, this is kind of funny (and sad). One perfume maker said that what they’ve gotten lately are requests for finished fragrances that cost $6.50 per pound. Mind you, this is before it’s diluted with alcohol. I didn’t even know they had anything that cheap, since I had never thought about buying based on price as the primary criteria.

Can you even imagine how wretched that must smell at that cost???! No wonder so many perfumes and colognes are 80% of the same stuff ou find in detergents and fabric softeners. Galaxolide, etc.

You know, I don’t think we’ve ever paid less than 5 or 6 times that for our least expensive “juice”. Something like $30 a pound. This was one for the ladies. I wasn’t overly impressed with it (smelled more like a “rough sketch” to me), but enough of the girls seemed to like it for us to carry it. Generally, I don’t start seeing anything worth even considering at less than $50/lb.

The ones I really want to smell are, again, the ones too expensive for the department store brands to consider. The ones that exceed industry standard, and use truly fine compounds. Maybe we’ll finally get something interesting with a request like that.

Honestly, almost nothing from the fragrance industry costs more than a well synthesized pheromone molecule… We’ve already built the fiscal muscles to sell the world’s finest synthesis of these molecules at virtually the same price others sell Chinese, so why not use our discipline to embrace higher quality fragrances?

10

Something that will last, and last would also be good MHarris. Game lasts for a bit, but eventually it also dies down pretty fast (to me at least.) So if it can be something with good silage and lasting power that’ll be awesome, I mean might as well have a good lasting cologne with your pheromone product as well. So like that it’ll be like hitting two birds with one stone, you get your awesome pheromone product, while also getting a good quality lasting cologne and scent.

The scent the first Raw Power test “goof” pack came in which if I remember correctly was 5% Game smells REALLY good. I know the distinct/unique smell was because of the musks (or pheromones) in the MX’s but it sure smells good and I also got/get a lot of compliments from it.

11

Well, the 4 I’m talking about wouldn’t be as “unique” as some designer fragrances.

I don’t consider Creed to be an overly unique brand, per se. (with some exceptions— they do have very fine juices, that are very unique indeed)

Mostly, with their best selling colognes, I just consider Creed to be at the high end of “very acceptable” brands. That’s why I asked for them to be considered for design inspiration. For something like Ammo or a professional work product, I want to reach the higher end of “very acceptable”. The high end of “normal”, you might say.

I did make a more recent request that we be sent samples of perfumers love projects that have sat on the shelves, unloved by design houses due to economic reasons. We’ll see what that request yields.

12

Forgot to write about the scents.

I personally like and use the heavy sweet scents. (i know its kidna unusual for a men scent… but i have great succes with this scents).
It not like the normal cologne you whould expect from a man. but with a 314 i get some great comments.

I am talking about the notes in Armani Black Code..
Top Notes: Bergamot, Lemon.
Middle Notes: Olive Flower.
Base Notes: Guiac Wood, Tonka Bean.

or my personal old time favorite Jean Paul Gaultier - Le Mâle
Top Notes: Mint, Artemesia, Cardamom, Bergamot..
Middle Notes: Lavender, Orange Blossom, Cinnamon, Cumin..
Base Notes: Sandalwood, Vanilla, Cedar, Tonka bean, Amber.

and paco-rabanne - Black XS
Top Notes: Lemon, Sage, Tagetes
Middle Notes: Cinnamon, Praline.
Base Notes: Ebony Wood, Black Amber

13

You mean the type of strength Creed Millesime has, or do you mean the type of strength parfums of old contained?

Truly old parfums had nitro musks, which made them very powerful indeed. These are not allowed anymore. Too dangerous.

Polycyclic musks, too, are on their way out. The door hasn’t completely hit them on the ass yet, but they are on the way out.

Unfortunately, this sort of interfaces with your other request… naturals.

Naturals will be used even less than they are, by the entire industry, due to IFRA regulations. Even great, vintage scents like Chanel #5 will barely use the natural jasmine they’ve pictured in ads (they run ads showing the fields they grow in France), unfortunately.

We use the same perfume houses that created Drakkar Noir, Jovan Andron, Flower Bomb, all kinds of well known colognes and perfumes. They make 4 out of every 10 award winning colognes and perfumes. They DEFINITELY follow IFRA regulations.

In the US, though (which seems to be unlike Europe), we don’t NEED to follow IFRA regulations. We could opt out of it, if we found a perfumer who could do it.

When we began, I tried my hand at natural perfuming. The old A314 at Love Scent sees a variation of that. So does A314 today, which is a half natural, half synthetic mix.

Unfortunately, many natural plant oils are quite “sensitizing”. That is, they cause skin irritation in a good number of people.

Unfortunately, “skin irritation” seems to be the key thing that the perfume industry worries about. They don’t seem to worry nearly as much about actual illness or feelings of unwell (otherwise Pink Sugar would be reformulated to contain less toxic substances).

They also don’t seem to concern themselves much with what certain molecules do the brain, for instance (the brain has an affinity for quite a few musk molecules), even when faced with clear evidence in the form of EEG scans.

I just got in a massive amount of perfuming chemicals to work on our own in-house diffusion package, and I cannot be exposed to the entire set at once without feeling incredibly and utterly ill. There’s something in my set even seems to help trigger ulcer attacks. For whatever reason, my stress based intestinal issues at the moment seem to make me extra sensitive to some synthetic chemicals. (but not to any of the common pheromones for some reason, probably because they are based on natural structures already found in our sweat – i.e., we’re built to handle pheromones more than we are weird structures built from petroleum)

I plan to use this new found extra sensitivity for it, as a sort of human lab mouse. I’m going to work my way through each chemical individually, one per hour, and see how I react over that hour. This way, I can make make my own better than IFRA list of what to avoid. I’m not in this business to do anything other than make people feel good. To me, it’s antithesis of business to intentionally do anything that doesn’t add to people’s lives.

I truly don’t understand the business models of those who intentionally peddle toxins, and think that somehow it will somehow make them rich. What kind of riches do you get to enjoy when you make the world poorer and unhealthier? You live in the world, too, and can’t escape it very easily. In which cesspool do they intend to spend that money? When enjoying their meal at a fancy restaurant, which unhappy, toxin burdened server do they want top notch “service with a smile from”? I see supreme irony in people that expect to enjoy that which they were involved in destroying.

Life is a system. It requires a bit more systems thinking than I’m seeing these days. Just like you look both ways before crossing the street, I see the habit of looking 360 degrees before making that next major business decision as just as sound. Just as necessary, and as good for you, and for those around you as looking before you leap into traffic.

Hmm, a little bit of ozone, the scent of the sea salt and 81 other sea minerals, the ions from the movement of the water… the baking sand… warmed silica… the freshness of air that only the ocean seems to bring, topped with the scent of laughter in the background and the giddiness that only the ocean seems to bring, too!

Starting to sound a lot like something from CDG! (the warmed silica part, anyway)

I think it’s do-able. I can spec it, anyway. Whether they can reliably execute or not, I don’t know.

To some extent, perfumery appears to be very “bottom up”, very driven by what’s possible with the palette of molecules available. Few people seem to be able to buck this trend.

Even what Chris Brossius does is still very bottom up if you think about it, although with as much experience as he has now, he might be able to combine a number of his “bottom up” learnings with a singular top down vision.

14

(if i take the best from Armani Black Code, Jean Paul Gaultier - Le Mâle and Black XS)

My suggestion for a scent would be:

Top Notes: Bergamot, Lemon.
Middle Notes: Olive Flower, Cinnamon
Base Notes: Sandalwood, Vanilla, Amber

15

I would like to see a fragrance that is Eau de Parfum strength that has the most natural ingredients allowed like the Creed millesime. Sorry I should have been more clear.

I do love the Creed colognes and have been seduced by their marketing which I’m sure you have seen. You know Oliver Creed only travels the world hand picking the finest ingredients like Vetiver from Hati and uses the old infusion techniques that have been abandoned as to costly by everyone else.Lol

I know what you mean about all the restrictions like oakmoss that has been banned. Gurlains Vetiver has been reformulated for example without the oakmoss which a lot of people on basenotes prefer the original.

Have you thought about a unisex fragrance that seems to be the staple with a lot of scents these days. Could be a way of reducing the cost than producing scents for both men and women.

I am a recent avid collector of colognes and believe most scents have their own charms except Angel by Mugler lol. I would love like others I’m sure to test the colognes that you are having produced.

Anyway all the best in your endeavors and I’m sure that focusing on quality is going to be music to many peoples ears.:slight_smile:

16

I think a simple sweet vanilla fragrance is great to cover cops.

Honestly, I wouldn’t want anything to strong or overpowering as I prefer to put my own perfume over pheros and cops anyway.

17

For UNIQUENESS my advice would be to avoid the dept store frag’s and get yourself some samples of relatively exotic items from the perfumed court or luckyscent to use as benchmarks.

One of the things you could do is try to replicate both the scent and effect of two of the holy grails which are just about impossible to find :
Andron by Jovan & Dolce Gabbana’s By Man

18

I have not ordered a bottle of Body Kouros in a long time my 3.4 oz bottle lasts a real long time since I only need two sprays, and you cannot get it in stores can only get it at discount sites that probably has been sitting on the warehouse shelves for a long time, but it still is fresh for me.

I had no idea akuto is amber based I can tell you this I cannot stand akuto I find it revolting,

I can describe Ambre Sultan - mix of spices and amber - spicy oriental

Blue Amber - very sexy amber - very linear- lasts for 24 hours, unisex, soft, not offensive, but goes great with pheros

I have tried many other ambers, and those are my two favorites ambers, though I did have one bad experience with Ambre Sultan, beucase the opneing is so loud, you have to be careful when you spray

Also how about some sandalwood frangrances? Have you ever smell Tam Dao? What a sexy mysterious frangrance it is very linear but it all about the sandalwood

But there are many other sandalwood that has better sillage if that is what you need.

I think the real problem is finding one that is going to have the most diffusion, and guess what? women’s perfumes have most diffusion. I own and wear Kenzo L’elephant a woman’s perfume, I feel it can be unisex, this is a head turner. One spray is all I need, beucase it will go down the hallway no joke LOL but it does not have that many floral to make it feminine.

I know many guys at basenotes who wears Tom Fords Black Orchid, even though that is labelled femnine, and if you look at the notes you will see why, but when someone is wearing that you can smell them a mile away, but a man can pull it off once you get to the drydown

That is also why I tend to go for niche unisex

Lets look at Frederic Malle’s Musc Ravageur, you just cannot get any sexier then that and if I go more then one spray I will knock people out. That will fill up an entire room. That is sexy on a man or woman depending upon the skin chemistry.

Now today I am wearing Straight To heaven by Killian, I love it is so unique with its rum and patchouli, it is intoxicating

I can list tons of others interesting niche perfumes but most are very complex that I do not think mainstream will be very happy with

Bottomline is you are never going to be able to find one scent that everyone is going to be happy with .

19

D&G By Man if they can replicate it would be heaven LOL, though I still have half a bottle but only use sparingly

20

I feel the same way about the Game scent. I feel like I’ve just used WAY too much fabric softener and went straight out into the world smelling like a giant dryer sheet.

I LOVE the smell of Akuto and get tons of compliments on it. Goes to show just how difficult it is to please everyone. Michael, I wish you the best of luck finding the fragrances with the qualities you are looking for because it is a monumental task. If you release them to be tested, I’m looking forward to testing them, though! :slight_smile: