First I would like to include a general description of what birth control pills actually do (pay attention to what I made bold):
So what you can take from this is that the natural spike of estrogen causing ovulation is suppressed.
Now an excerpt from an interesting article about pheromone study:
Based upon these studies, doesn’t it imply that women on hormonal birth control are VERY LESS likely to respond to certain sexual pheromones if at all? That is about 64% of the (edit: female) human population practicing birth control.
If that is the case, I can see an importance of pheromones that act in a non-sexual manner - trust, honesty, openness, mood, etc…
Hi Tarnished, That may be the case according to the study you quoted, and another:
The relationship between oral contraceptive use and sensitivity to olfactory stimuli
Kaytlin J. Renfro , Heather Hoffmann
By “using some form of contraception” do you mean 64% are on the pill? I read that as using any form of contraception, including condoms, IUDs, and other non-pharmaceutical contraception as well, so I suspect that the number of females in the pool that have drug regulated hormone levels is significant, but smaller than the 64%.
Still, that is a large segment of the pool of women that may not be as affected by sexual mones. I believe that even this segment (on the pill) are affected by sexual pheros to some extent, just maybe not as much as women not on the pill. May need higher doses to “get” them.
So yes, I agree to draw these women in, we may need to focus more on the socials, to get them in close enough to get them to respond to the sexuals.
I am still very curious about pheromones and their effects on people. Coming in to this forum with a noob perspective, what stands out the most is that pheromones can and do work, it is part of being human and animals we still are. However, humans are so complicated they can never be simplified by “one size fits all”. So many variables it boggles the mind. It makes sense the scientific community is in debate about the topic. Birth control really stood out to me first because, well, there are alot of females on them… being perscribed for “easier periods” sounds great at first, but there are alot of women whose libido has been destroyed by them. Quite the cruel joke for both genders. Take the pill so you dont become pregnant and loose interest in sex all together as a common side effect.
EDIT: By the way all you younger guys, stop worrying so much about this “friend zone” thing. My wife IS my best friend. I told her that a month into dating almost 15 years ago. She started to tear up thinking I didn’t love her until I explained that loving partners ARE BEST FRIENDS. We celebrated our decade anniversary yesterday and both feel as though time flew by…
Firstly, I agree with you that best friends are sexy and that most people who want life long partners should aim to find a best friend they are extremely attracted to for maximum happiness and sexual fulfillment.
Secondly, BC pills prevent a peak of estrogen (no ovulation), which prevents a maximum sensitivity, but it doesn’t mean they are not sensitive at all. It just means they are not AS sensitive. They need higher concentrations of “musk” to notice it neurologically (their threshold for detecting is raised but it still exists). Keep in mind the article mentions sensitivity is related to serum estrogen levels and bc pills are synthetic estrogen (orally so does go through the liver and decreases bioavailability- any PDR can give you the exact amount per manufacturer)
All BC pills are not created the same and not all women will respond the same way. The ideal pill is the right amount of dosing (balance between estrogen/progesterone) that prevents ovulation but allows natural fluctuations in hormones which mimic a women’s normal cycle. The reason for the lack of libido (mostly bc of lack of ovulation) is also related to this flat-lining of synthetically maintaining all levels at the same amount until you force your menstruation by discontinuing (1 week sugar pills).
More women in science need to design a pill that changes concentrations daily (they are already designed and packaged for this) that fluctuate slightly in order to maintain more natural patterns so that women don’t experience many of the unwanted side effects. I will talk to my pharmacist friends- they have the compounding abilities.
Brian having made no objection, I bring you the following:
Abstract:
The relationship between oral contraceptive use and sensitivity to olfactory stimuli
The present study examined differences in olfactory sensitivity between 16 naturally cycling (NC) women and 17 women taking monophasic oral contraceptives (OCs) to six odors: lemon, peppermint, rose, musk, androstenone and androsterone. Thresholds were assessed twice for both groups of women (during the periovulatory and luteal phases of their cycles) via a forced-choice discrimination task. NC women in the periovulatory phase were significantly more sensitive to androstenone, androsterone, and musk than women taking OCs. These findings give support to odor-specific hormonal modulation of olfaction. Further, due to the social and possibly sexual nature of these odors, future work should address whether there is a relationship between decreased sensitivity to these odors and reported behavioral side effects among women taking OCs.
(Renfro and Hoffman, 2013)
There’s an Easter Egg or two in the full text.
Coming soon, perhaps, gene polymorphisms and olfactory sensitivity in Asians, Europeans and mixed ethnicity.
Some websites talk about science. I spend hours every weekend actually looking for it. Hell, by 2015 or whenever, maybe the others will actually post some scintillating content instead of just promises.
I will tell you this, ladies and gentlemen: you have not been told the truth. Androtics hasn’t misled you (not by design). The community has, for reasons of greed and ignorance. And the truth isn’t what you think it is. Over the next few years, it will send shockwaves through some vendors and products. Stay tuned. Welcome to the New Age.
“Based upon these studies, doesn’t it imply that women on hormonal birth control are VERY LESS likely to respond to certain sexual pheromones if at all? That is about 64% of the (edit: female) human population practicing birth control.”
Based upon my reading of the full-text article, I would support this premlininary finding. It appears BC pill users have perturbed from normal olfactory senses. Less sensitivity to many odors, including mones. This was earlier examined in the MHC/phenotype dissimilarity context (mechanism against kin mating/inbreeding/promotion of genetic diversity). Note the European zoo that killed the giraffes as a precaution against inbreeding. The normal evolutionary olfaction mechanisms that assist non-pill users in mate selection are corrupted in BC pill takers. Upon cessation of pill use for planned pregnancies, they now find themselves having selected the wrong DNA donor. The good DNA donor is not always the good provider. Thus, the tumultuous sea of conflicting female motives in a world of old genes and modern realities.
I don’t have a ready link to the study, Celtic, but Lady has a copy. It’s copyrighted material. It would be up to Androtics to post the whole thing. I may make brief quotes for fair use. Androsterone for the project was supplied by J Vaughn Kohl (SOE).
Personal note: Having lived a few years on earth, I’m not even sure FriendZone matters. Right place, right time does. If Ms. Right has a good smeller and digs your sig, it’s love at first sight. That’s how our ancestors did it. I think we will have the technology to use robotic pipettes to make custom A314 and Sexiness formulas specific to the individual’s genotype. They amplify what we remove from clothes and bathing. I’m looking closely at GABRA gene SNP’s and ligands, as well as other ideas. Possible in 10 years or sooner. Asian and European formulas possible now. This would be a premium A314. Nanogram per nanogram. Your natural signature for the ideal mate. The rest is up to you.
sounds expensive- and Gattica much. For how fervent you are about the New Age- you are scaring me Big Brother.
In the same post (s) you mention how synthetic use of chemicals resulted in the wrong DNA donor and are suggesting an altering (enhancement) synthetic of our own for an ideal mate. I can’t help but see how those two are related and unwanted problems can occur.
I do think it’s exciting and I would love to increase the possibility of finding my ideal match. You have speculated that I’m within a 5% of females, at brunch my guy friends speculated 1-2%. Now, consider how much of the male population would be into the 2-5% and not intimidated/weirded out/etc- they speculated less than 5%. So how am I supposed to find this 5%? I’ve come to terms with not finding him.
Synthetic pheromone usage is much more like wearing makeup. Makeup reflects the wearer. There are a myriad of psychological reasons why women (and men) wear it. Elders want to appear younger. Younger want to appear older. Birthmarks. Flash bulbs. Insecurity. Narcissism. Self confidence. Lack of Self Confidence. Perceived Advantage. Actual advantage. Influence. Power. Ad nauseum…
I wish I could find this reference again, but google is broken:
Communist women bore more naturally attractive children because makeup was outlawed in the bloc. Unlike in the west, if you’re “ugly” (read: lacking cues for positive reproductive outcomes, full lips, full hips, estrogenic, feminine face), you had no access to makeup to “correct” the "flaw. This forced more “attractive” women into the mating pool, and selectively extincted uglier ones.
The inverse has taken itself to a pathological extreme in China, where men are suing their “ugly” wives/baby mamas for undisclosed beautifying plastic surgery. And winning.
Apparently, you’re supposed to trust OkCupid algorithms to serve up Your Ideal Mate. The first billion to go to the online dating site that tracks genitalia size and folds that into their algorithm. (Just for you, ladyS)
ExperiMone is the rudimentary first draft of this. Your ability to tailor your own personal mix is the idea. Actually, that’s the whole idea of modular pheromones (instant line). MMDI is taking it one (ten) step(s) further.
Ideally, not just pheromones and cosmetics would be customers for this technology, but designer drugs, treatments and disease protocols. The whole world is moving in a more personalized direction. And as the big institutions buy ever more complex technology to perform these previously unrealistic feats of engineering, a new breed of experts will be designing the protocols that drive the frontier.
People used to watch CBS, NBC, and ABC. Now there exists an infinite sea of content providers, from dorky teenager making 6 second Vines, to elaborately produced TED talk, all accessible, 24/7 and anywhere within cell tower radius or satellite, via the computer you carry in your pocket. Whereas you were only allowed to watch Monday Night Football on television any given Monday night, you can spend your Monday night diving into the deep hole of your subscribed youtube videoblogs - YOUR channel, customized to YOUR persona.
If television can come that far in less than a century, maybe designer preparations are not far behind.
That’s the difference- Experimone is user controlled. I don’t want companies accessing my genotype and deciding what areas to enhance.
The examples you used about make up and China are both spot on-- technology, innovation and medicine have to co-evolve with natural selection. The moment we eliminate the intricate/ multiple core foundations of evolution and leave it all up to the few and far between random mutations, we are robbing our future selves of our potential.
and maybe I’m more conservative in my approach- but I trust the way we got here and would rather be as minimal in my alteration as possible. (natural looking make up for example)
P80 is easier, I think, for females to work with than P75. I do think something close to that is already in use in some formulas. Males who tolerate you wearing moderate amounts of 80 (balanced with Sexiness A as the dominant note, for gender specificity)…this is the best idea I can give you. The demand for women seeking custom solutions vastly exceeds supplied data. 2.5 mcg per spray is reasonable.
Gracious was wearing a full masculine dose and apparently loved it. See if you can get some PM feedback from her. He who would like someone who can benchpress 200 lbs., wear a dress and do all the normal girl things with girl looks…I think that’s your TG. I’m partial to NCAA girls’ softball and volleyball, myself. Observation: alpha females exposed to P75 stay alpha but becoming admiringly feminine. In the context of hip:waist ratio, the lower numerators aren’t so much for 75. They just ignore it. Perhaps an RIA unrinalysis for DHEAS would be in order?
I’ve got so damned many bookmarks, I can’t find anything. More on this later.
To recap: I think you are looking for TG’s who are very tolerant of a 95% feminine signature with 5% trace male pheros. Sexiness A + whatever. P80 seems to be one of the ones without harsh selfies. You want micrograms of P78 or P91 and nanograms of erone, enone. Maybe diluted IG. Maybe nanograms of P75. You can also add straight TAL to IS/A. Any guy with the least ego or confidence problem is going to not like -enone. And they won’t tolerate a wife with a fiercely independent lifestyle either.
Well, it could be as simple as a clinic like setting, where licensed practitioners devise a bespoke formula on the fly for a client. Worried mom scuttles Teenage Johnny into the clinic and they discuss enhancing his profile to minimize bullying, so he can focus his massive teenage mind on Yale acceptance and not defense. Practitioner takes some strategic swabs and fires up the ole olfactory organ.
It’s not much different a model than walking into your neighborhood Costco optometrist and taking the little battery of tests and measurements, having a gentle practitioner set a machine to your head for some additional fiddling, then output you a piece of paper with a personalized RX (recommendation) what to buy.
Of course, there are ten thousand minor steps between here and there. Olfactory bulb mapping. Psychological testing. FMRIs. Probably vaginal blood flow probes.
Even males are waking up to natural looking makeup/enhancements. Quietly. Subversively. Almost all of them are now using MOISTURIZER (disguised as after shave, of course). They are EXFOLIATING! (with a loofah called a bod pod and marketed as “like polishing your car ONLY YOUR BODY!”) It must follow manly branding or the whole game is off. There is a probably a lady at the top of P&G overseeing all the madness, laughing her prada panties off, at the closeted queer bully who spurned her when young, inspiring her to exact her revenge on all American XYs from here until the next buzzword generation.
Make up and China. I think people’s technological means have FAR surpassed their sociological maturity. (Personal opinion). Natural selection isn’t so natural anymore (ask the Bengal tiger and the Amazon rainforest). Man and his badass tools have made a mess of the natural world.
I think next step on a grande scale is education and enlightenment. Though we’re technologically (materially) advanced, the next TOOLS wee humans must fortify ourselves with to survive the apocalypse are THOUGHT TOOLS. Prudence. Critical Thinking. A mastery of simulations and “if then statements”.
Birth control, on paper, is a great idea. It prolongs your youthful, explorative, experiential years. It liberates mankind’s awesome strategic thinkers, ie- women - from the toils of housework and child rearing, to those un-fettered years of long nights at the study hall or the school of hard knocks.
Women have been practicing birth control (and balancing energy) for millennia, and now have more badass tools to do so, like IUD’s and hormone pills. And each greets them with a new set of effects and challenges. Not side effects. Effects. Like wanting to marry someone genetically your brother, or losing your sex drive en masse.
I trust HIPAA compliant medical licensed practitioners, not companies. Everything medical research or doctors want to do, they do so with our signed informed consent. I cannot say the same for corporations.
The key word I used was “co-evolve.” Sure, they are many things we have eliminated from the driving forces of evolution, but to say it is no longer contributing or not an active part of our lifestyle and future is false. First world countries don’t need survival skills, but we do need employ-ability. We rely on modern medicine but we still kill ourselves with our bad choices (obesity, diabetes, drug use, etc). Yes, we are destroying the planet at an alarming rate and endangering habitats/animals faster than they can adapt/survive- but those that can or will (regardless of how/interventions necessary)- will be the future of the mess we have made. And that is still evolution.
Birth control is yet another co-evolved contribution that I love and admire. Thousands of years ago, I would have been raped and impregnated more times than I could count, probably would not have survived childbirth/pregnancy, and would have never had the opportunity TO CHOOSE.
Consciously choosing my mate introduces a whole new myriad of problems I am not yet fully adapted to understand (BC is only 2-3 generations old). I struggle with weighing between cognitively wise suitors, versus sexually compatible mates, versus chemically attracted mates, and emotionally connected friends. Having more options doesn’t necessarily make this task any easier, but it does require a woman to understand her own psyche/body/mental status to observe where her attraction lies.
For the record, there are women who lost their libido after quitting the pill to try to get pregnant (4 of my female friends reported this). My sense of smell was enhanced when I first started the pill, every thing made me nauseous and I threw up every day like an actual pregnant woman. Everyone’s baseline hormones are different, so how the average female responds to BC pills is just that- an average. Keep in mind the deviation.
oh and p.s. sign me up for the member with “member” information attached- I’m so down
Women whose forefinger was shorter than their ring finger were more likely to describe themselves as ‘assertive and competitive’ than women whose forefinger was longer than their ring finger.
I was going to add: IUD would generally seem the conservative choice. In the instant case for Lady, crafting a pheromone mix that attracts very potent males to practice baby-making (and want to fail in the conceptional result 100%, being fully content with that lifestyle) is difficult. You’re seeking an extended LTR where the man voluntarily chooses extinction of his surname bloodline. How does one create “attractive female, cannot get pregnant signature?”
I conjecture the reverse-copulin effect. Male wears copulins. Smells like woman. Player? Not kept man, unless with high IG signature. IJ + cops = seeking non-committed flings. Can’t even bother to wash them cops off. Maybe he’s snipped? That’s why he smells like V. and doesn’t have baby Mamas?
Reverse cops. Woman projects gender-specific, hetero sig with EST-analogues. Estrogen metabolites and a few others like DHEAS in that metabolic chain. Has also some androgen products (-enone, unconjugated “free” androsterone). Is she a jock? Why does she smell like guy?
The guy wearing cops might put off heteros looking for a rone man but create curiosity among the 1% females. Balancing TAL, rone, -enone and cops could attract anything, especially with an added P80 or 78 wildcard. The same concepts apply, generally, to men or women seeking either gender for whatever sex they are looking for at the time. The ratio of male to female mones. These folks are going to need a putative tool kit and just experiment. Maybe Androtics should make it? It’s pheromone makeup, all the way, in the truest sense.
Since this is about BC and not my thread, I posted two more. Some of the best theory I can tap on genes, Asians, ethnicity and mones for GLBT and any lifestyle you please.
Mine when taken for absolute length are equal, palms down - ring finger is shorter, palms up creating a straight line with attachment crease- ring finger is longer. I have insanely large hands for how short I am (5’4")- you can measure approximate bone width/mass by the circumference of your wrist and in high school, I was in the top 1%, bigger than 6’7" football/waterpolo players (school size 1500-2000, can’t remember).
Hey at least I don’t have to worry about osteoporosis.
I think it may constitute a valid biomarker input into a mix calculator.
Example: various websites instruct how to determine 2D:4D. Info volunteered by LadyS fits my conjecture, based upon her self-described personality. However, I don’t have statistics that compare 2D:4D ratios to which products perform best. It may or may not show any statistical significance. Maybe, you should find out.
For women who purchase Sexiness A or B, they receive a password to a closed forum. They answer a poll, anonymously if they choose. What is their 2D:4D? Do they strongly prefer IS/A, B or neither? They may discuss privately, as no result is construed as less feminine or gay.
This is research. It is a variant on blood type and perhaps more useful. It costs nothing. It can begin today. Nobody else does it or bothers to try. It may help to determine rone and none men. What signature they have. What they may lack. With automation, custom formulas may be possible in the future. It is a small step with which to begin something. It is…cutting edge.
Right? It’s like when 23andme asks you if you like the taste of cilantro or if your hair is slightly curled. Weird biomarkers, weird little indicators. I like where you are going with this. I wonder what other strange little biomarkers you’ve uncovered in your study surfing?
Do any of you have home ovulation monitors? I’m specifically interested in a brand that measures LH hormone and estrogens (Estrone 3 Gluc., a metabolite of Estradiol). These retail for about $150. Note that the pheromone EST is similar to estradiol.
Nope- I have the LadyComp, it measures your basal body temperature to the hundredth degree and gets more accurate the more regularly and longer you use it. It requires waking up at the same time and taking your temperature-- I loved it. Worked really well. Except all the days that I was the horniest and did not want to use a condom were the days I had to (go figure)-- hence the IUD.
