blaaah this doesnt sound like something id want to try… 
I am actually REALLY enjoying this phero… (What does that say about me!? 
) It’s quite varied. I tested it pretty extensively yesterday, and once things slow down here, I’m going to post all about it again. I need to do much more testing with it in a social environment, but the early results out and about are quite interesting. I OD’d on it yesterday too. (100mcg)
I really, really enjoyed the post detailing the psychology of the psychopath as well. It helped “click” a lot of things within this phero. I think there’s huge potential with it, and I’d love to keep playing and experimenting with it.
HOWEVER, it also has a very dangerous undertone, an evil, sinister sub-quality. I can understand why there aren’t more posts on it on these boards. It’s multi-faceted and varied, but presents as an in-your-face cold, dispassionate, evil power. The dark side of the Force. The seduction of “absolute power.” Caligula. Lord Voldemort.
I DO NOT recommend it to you, Noob. Back Away. Run Away. And listen to Lor. She was being very kind, very polite, and very, very generous with her sharing of information, far more than I think any of the rest of us would have been. Put it this way - I’m glad I wasn’t on P87 when I read your flippant post to Diane…
Thanks, Ladies, really, I didn’t take offense. I don’t think all the Instant Shine in the world would offset P87.
I know what you mean about the dark undertone, Tigerlily. I didn’t get to that place with this putative but I can easily see where it could go there.
It is probably an instant anxiety blocker as well, since how can you feel any anxiety if you just don’t care what anyone thinks? But it is just plain icky to be that blocked from sharing intimacy and I’d rather have anxiety if it means connection in the long run. And people that want that isolation? Broken, is all I can say.
Freedom from conscience and anxiety are senseless if the only rewards you get from it are your own delusions of grandeur. 
Wow! That was really judgmental on my part, eh? 
I certainly don’t want to discourage putative testing! It will be interesting to see if we have actually discovered a chemical psychopath molecule, though. If you could block the receptors for this, you might actually come up with a cure. Imagine that!
Diane
… erm, a little bit, yeah. 
Precisely! ALL research is valuable research! However, I do think this is one putative that maybe should be restricted… until the user knows what they’re doing. (back away, Noob!) 
In terms of the instant anxiety blocker - yes. It subdues many emotional responses, anxiety being one of them. In terms of physical responses (since you and Xiphoid are online at the moment, maybe I could pick your two brains) - When wearing this, I have increased blood pressure, a subtle decrease or neutral level HR, and pinpoint (and I do mean pinpoint) pupils. I have difficulty focusing in on anything. My field of vision is unfocused and wide.
Any thoughts?
This is also a short-lasting phero 2.5-3 hours.
This is much more up Xiphoid’s alley, but I know that diagnosed psychopathic inpatients in one study did show marked increased sympathetic reactivity (raised blood pressure) to epinephrine injection, much more than normal controls. Depressed heart rate is pretty well documented. Not sure about the pupils and field of view.
I found this interesting article that is a near past look at a contemporary psychopath. I thought you’d enjoy reading it.
Lovefraud Blog Blog Archive When the mask slips on the psychopath
Diane
Tigerlilly In terms of physical responses (since you and Xiphoid are online at the moment, maybe I could pick your two brains) - When wearing this, I have increased blood pressure, a subtle decrease or neutral level HR, and pinpoint (and I do mean pinpoint) pupils. I have difficulty focusing in on anything. My field of vision is unfocused and wide.
This is also a short-lasting phero 2.5-3 hours.
Hey, hey…now it’s getting interesting…
Decreased HR and pupil constriction would suggest increased parasympathetic drive…but you’d normally also expect the BP to decrease if you increase parasympathetic drive… An anxiolytic effect (relaxing) also goes hand in hand with parasympathetic activation…
The focusing issue would be due to the constricted pupils… Normally with the “fight or flight” response, i.e increased sympathetic drive your pupils dilate…the body is poising itself for escape & you need to optimise your vision for that 
Another funny thing about increased parasympathetic drive, (if that is indeed what P87 is doing) is that it also stimulates penile vasodilation …in other words it gives you a boner Now let’s see how quickly P87 disappears from the shop…
LOL - I too was interested in the differing sympathetic/parasympathetic reactions I as getting. The HR depression was slight. The INcrease in BP was more pronounced, but not shockingly so. not enough to stop testing, at least. I was surprised at the pinpoint pupils though. I will keep taking vitals as I continue to test this one.
Possibly related, a la sympathetic response - I was startled (quite a bit so) during my 100mcg dosage test about an hour into it, and very shortly afterward, the dissipation feeling came over me, and the phero melted away. This is one phero where you can feel when it comes on and when it goes. There’s an intra-cranial “pressure,” feeling, though that’s not quite accurate. More of a feeling of a wet blanket being wrapped around your brain. When it dissipates, however, I feel the same thing I feel when a migraine or a bad headache is finally taken out by aspirin - a tingling, a lightness, a release of the pressurized feeling. At 100mcg, it actually felt like I had liquid seeping out my ears. (I didn’t, just the pressure release feeling). So that’s what it feels like when this phero wears off/dissipates. It’s distinctive - after I was startled, this happened very quickly. Possibly it was “burned” off by some body reaction/sympathetic drive?
Also, in direct relation to the amount of phero applied, there is a “bounce-back” effect from the “depressed” emotional state. The cold, clinical, analytical, observational, emotionless state leaves with the dissipation, and the emotions that you should have been feeling during that time seem to pour in. I’ve had HUGE spikes in happiness, cheery-ness and ridiculous joy after wearing this. It takes about an hour to have the bounce. After the 100mcg dose, I was literally laughing out loud, talking to myself and singing loudly in the car. I was dancing in my set in traffic. it was strange. it was also uncontrollable and unstoppable. at 25mcg it was generally upbeat, and at 50mcg, it was a joking, happy, TAA like effect.
Thanks for everyone chiming in, this is great!
Awesome, detailed report, Tigerlily! I rep’d ya!
Diane
Ohh! Thank you! Reps from you mean a ton to me, thanks Diane!
Here are some excerpts from my earlier post on P87:
What’s important is accurately describing the effects of P87, but I think you all are confusing empathy with sympathy. I am going to stay with empathy for describing P87. It is a cold empathy – an empathy without sympathy. Diane says it blocks feeling. I do not concur. P87 certainly does not encourage compassion by itself, but with P86 and Instant Honesty I feel plenty of warmth. You have to get it from someplace other than the P87. That is not a bad choice to have. Just as one cannot realistically feed and shelter every homless person you see on the streets of a large city, I cannot allow myself to fall in love with every pretty face.
As I noted above, P87 has strong effects which will drown out everything else with cold empathy. It needs to be used in small amounts relative to other pheromones in a mix. I see why Diane is wary of wearing it around her husband, who she knows and loves. When you are meeting people though, it provides vital information and you control the level of warmth and connection with other pheromones.
I have found that I like a ratio of 5:1 P86 to P87. That is what I was wearing last night along with a little more TAF than usual, P75 and 15mcg TAC. That seemed to bring out the cold empathy a little too much. There is still a lot to learn about how P87 interacts with other pheros.
For me the most meaningful description of sociopathy is that, unlike the neurotic who is defending against guilt (and the anxiety that comes with it), the sociopath is defending against shame. As a child he received such deep narcissistic wounds that feeling any weakness ever again is unbearable. This Peter Braunstein guy destroyed his life defying a woman’s rejection. PheroQuirk’s psychopath is psychologically incapable of allowing himself to identify emotionally with his victim’s weakness but takes pride in tricking the psychiatrist into believing he does. He must win at all costs even if it means losing big in the long run.
I can see where P87 might appeal to a sociopath, but not only to a sociopath. I do not experience anything inherently evil in P87.
Warren, I have read your posts on p87 at great length. I actually have them printed out and refer to them often. I am going to try some of your social experiments and mixes with P87 after I get a handle on the self-effects/isolation effects of this putative.
I was trying to touch more on the deeper, more multi-varied aspects of p87 above, but I didn’t go into great detail. My apologies. I am still formulating my hypothesis at this time, and so I want to keep some of the data close, but I do not believe that this is a putative to be tossed. i think it has many, many applications in a variety of uses, but I believe it can present, on a surface level, as a very cold, sociopathic effect.
I completely agree with you about the difference between empathy and sympathy. I think a clearer example would be a “quick read/reaction” on someone/something. A cold, analytical reading on an individual, unencumbered by any emotions or feelings you may or may not be feeling in that situation. Yesterday I learned that a former business associate, and a former mentor-ee (I was the mentor) had seen their best friend murdered quite recently. I was wearing 50mcg of P87 at the time. I was able to respond in a situationally appropriate manner. I said the correct things, comforted the correct way - but inside I was feeling nothing. Initially, a low level of shock at hearing the news, but it was unaccompanied by any other feelings. Empathic, as in I cognitively knew how he was feeling and how to react, but NOT sympathetic - I felt nothing. React to that as you each will, but that was the result.
Now, unaffected by the phero, I am able to feel remorse, anger, sadness for my former associate, etc. At the time, no - it was clinical, it was analytical. What next, how to proceed, etc. That CAN be interpreted as evil, yes. But I also agree with Warren, it doesn’t HAVE to be. There’s a theory running around (and I am sorry, i can’t cite it) that PTSD affects some more than others base don which hemisphere of the brain they “live” in during the trauma. Do they react highly emotionally and lose all analytical functioning and reactivity? Do they lose the ability to “think” their way out of it? Or are they processing and analyzing “what next, how do I proceed from here,” etc…
As a former PTSD survivor, I do subscribe to this theory. I actually finally overcame it by “reliving” it and processing it in a left-brain manner. (That was a rather quick and dirty summary of counseling… )
Maybe this is the ultimate “left brain” phero??
I very much look forward to warming this phero up with some social and testing it out and about. Like I sad, I want to get a handle on it individually first. I will be testing with it again tomorrow. (Tonight I have a date… no p87 testing for that!! )
Thanks for clarifying, Warren.
I don’t confuse empathy with sympathy. Sympathy can follow from empathy, but they are not the same. Sympathy implies that you are identifying with the other person based on shared feelings. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in that persons place inside yourself but without necessarily identifying yourself with those feelings. You still resonate with it… that is empathy.
I still maintain that intellectually knowing what someone is going through isn’t empathy. You can have complete knowledge of what another is feeling without any resonance within yourself at all, if you are trained to it.
Empathy is the ability to feel what that person is feeling. It is that quality of walking in the other person’s shoes inside yourself that is empathy.
I recommend reading anything by Hervey Cleckley. He’s spend his entire career studying psychopathology.
The Inner Landscape of the Psychopath: Hervey Cleckley
And if you are up to it and really want to get a peek behind the mask dare to read The Psychopath’s Bible. But be forewarned it will mess with your mind.
Diane
Edit: Just wanted to add a little bit of information. Insight-oriented therapies actually appear to make psychopaths (but not non-psychopaths) more likely to recidivate (Quinsey & Lalumière, 1995), possibly because psychopaths use psychotherapy sessions to develop their skills in psychological manipulation, and because they see no need to change their admirable personalities (Hare, 1993, pp. 192-206)
yep, that would be right.
Let me clarify my position a little so you can get a better grasp on my take on this putative.
I don’t think it is evil. It is cold.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with being analytical or intellectual or in deconstructing anything, including emotions, in an intellectual way. Actually, I value that ability in those able to do it. You can actually gain quite a great deal of insight this way. And I think with responsible use this putative can do much to clear the cobwebs so that this is easier to accomplish.
But for me, personally, I am both left- and right-brained, but I can easily become too deconstructionist and too analytical. And it is my touchy-feely nature and the ability to connect on an emotional level with those that I love that I feel is my saving grace, personally. That is why I dislike this putative for my own use. Because it blocks much, if not all, of my warm emotional nature, it creates what I feel is a real disadvantage in me. With this putative I could too easily become a very cold individual, and I really don’t like that possibility at all.
I haven’t used the putative very much, and what testing I did do was with very low doses. But it was enough to make me want to stay away from it for now.
Diane
I’ve been thinking about this a lot since I first read it, and I think your positive response constitutes a real rebound affect, possibly involving the amygdyla and other parts of the ventral system. This system is normally involved in identifying and appraising emotional stimulation, and producing an appropriate emotional response. It is one of the systems strongly implicated to be dysfunctional in the diagnosed psychopath. There is another system that is also dysfunctional in most psychopaths, the dorsal system, that is involved with dampening down behavioral response and in synthesizing appropriate meaning from the stimulation coming from the ventral system.
Anyway, I find it comforting to find this rebound-type response in you. It probably means you are normal and functional… well, as normal and functional as anyone who tests pheromones as a hobby… heh.
Diane
i totally get the rebound effect.
i cant ,however,
wrap my head around a lack of “crash”.
crash isnt a good word i guess,
im reminded maybe of manic episodes,
where to be super-elated
only draws attention-to and then exaggerates
just being normal
and then normal feels like depression.
none of that,Tigerlily?
at the leveling-off point ?
None - haven’t experienced a “crash” yet. The happy vibe normalizes out over time, so there’s no dramatic spike or plunge, at least for me.
I too was surprised at the lack of a plunge. After the joyful period, everything goes right back to Tigerlilly normal!
I am testing this phero again today, so I’ll be updating here again. I also need to post a few official reports on this and some others as well.