There has long been a debate...

that looks do/don’t matter. I posted this on “that other forum” also.
This is an article that I came across that may hold some answers.

From the introduction (emphasis mine):

Everyone knows looks shouldn’t matter. Beauty, after all, is only skin deep, and no right-thinking person would admit to taking much account of how someone looks outside the realm of courtship, that romantic free-trade zone traditionally exempted from the usual tariffs of rationality. Even in that tender kingdom, where love at first sight is still readily indulged, it would be impolitic, if not immature, to admit giving too much weight to a factor as shallow as looks. Yet perhaps it’s time to say what we all secretly know, which is that looks do matter, maybe even more than most of us think.
We infer a great deal from people’s looks—not just when it comes to mating (where looks matter profoundly), but in almost every other aspect of life as well, including careers and social status. It may not be true that blondes have more fun, but it’s highly likely that attractive people do, and they start early. Mothers pay more attention to good-looking babies, for example, but, by the same token, babies pay more attention to prettier adults who wander into their field of vision. Attractive people are paid more on the job, marry more desirable spouses, and are likelier to get help from others when in evident need. Nor is this all sheer, baseless prejudice. Human beings appear to be hard-wired to respond to how people and objects look, an adaptation without which the species might not have made it this far. The unpleasant truth is that, far from being only skin deep, our looks reflect all kinds of truths about difference and desire—truths we are, in all likelihood, biologically programmed to detect.
Sensitivity to the signals of human appearances would naturally lead to successful reproductive decisions, and several factors suggest that this sensitivity may be bred in the bone. Beauty may even be addictive. Researchers at London’s University College have found that human beauty stimulates a section of the brain called the ventral striatum, the same region activated in drug and gambling addicts when they’re about to indulge their habit. Photos of faces rated unattractive had no effect on the volunteers to whom they were shown, but the ventral striatum did show activity if the picture was of an attractive person, especially one looking straight at the viewer. And the responses occurred even when the viewer and the subject of the photo were of the same sex. Good-looking people just do something to us, whether we like it or not.
People’s looks speak to us, sometimes in a whisper and sometimes in a shout, of health, reproductive fitness, agreeableness, social standing, and intelligence. Although looks in mating still matter much more to men than to women, the importance of appearance appears to be rising on both sides of the gender divide. In a fascinating cross-generational study of mating preferences, every 10 years different groups of men and women were asked to rank 18 characteristics they might want enhanced in a mate. The importance of good looks rose “dramatically” for both men and women from 1939 to 1989, the period of the study, according to David M. Buss, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Texas. On a scale of 1 to 3, the importance men gave to good looks rose from 1.50 to 2.11. But for women, the importance of good looks in men rose from 0.94 to 1.67. In other words, women in 1989 considered a man’s looks even more important than men considered women’s looks 50 years earlier. Since the 1930s, Buss writes, “physical appearance has gone up in importance for men and women about equally, corresponding with the rise in television, fashion magazines, advertising, and other media depictions of attractive models.”

In all likelihood this trend will continue, driven by social and technological changes that are unlikely to be reversed anytime soon—changes such as the new ubiquity of media images, the growing financial independence of women, and the worldwide weakening of the institution of marriage. For better or worse, we live now in an age of appearances. It looks like looks are here to stay.

Great post, its about time someone around here other than me recognizes the importance and the role that looks play in everyday life. On some level, just about everyone knows that looks is one of the first thing that grabs someones attention, even sexually.. but to admit to something like this for alot of it would not happen, simply because it is “not socially correct” or it isn’t “nice.”

Rob, there is no denying how important first looks are important those days. Many from both genders will grant a first look to an attractive person from the opposite gender.

Too often the (shouldn’t), (shallow vs. thoughtful) and other comments are made, polarisation is seen, or assuming if you like it one way, then you must dislike the other.

I prefer to let not decide what others should like or not … I state what I like, observe others, and tell what I saw. You be the judge if you like, but I won’t be.

As for looks:

I can call it the 10-second pheromone. I bundle looks with ‘presence’ though, when I see an attractive woman first time.

Immediately after that 10 seconds, my mind works on its own, assessing the ‘presence’, the personality, the suitability.

If I get positive confirmations, things goes very well. I will be talking to that attractive woman, who has good presence, and her personality just builds up and up on that.

But on the other hand, if the presence falters, and the personality is not there, then looks fade away ..

Do I look at ‘normal’ looking women as well ?, yes.

Do I use same process with them ?, yes.

Does most everyone else follow the same process ?, I’d say yes from what I see, but the timing per stage differ. My 10 seconds may be a month for someone, then 5 second for another.

I think I do something similar. I see the “outside” first, her looks. Then I try to see if the “inside” looks as good as the outside… in other words that she is congruent. I value maturity of the person too. Some (I have met a great number for sure) people are mentally immature which I tend to see as a red flag..

When I see a girl the first thing is is I see if she looks good on the outside. Then I start to look on the inside; then I think to myself of how balanced the outside is compared to on the inside. For example… if she has an ugly personality.. does she look hot enough to compensate for her ugly or unnattractive personality or vice versa. Another comparison I do is not just between personality or looks.. but if she has average looks and a sucky personality.. I like to wonder how sexual of a person she is to compensate for the other 2 parts of her.. like is she adventurous.. is she responsive.. is she kinky.. how big is her sex drive… etc.

The things I think about when looking for a woman are essentially a few things and for these reasons:

  1. Does she look hot and does she maintain it like work out and just basic hygene - as in I would like to know if she cares enough about herself and me to “look attractive” down the road in our relationship.

  2. Personality - is she enjoyable to be around.. is she too needy or too aloof.. I’d rather be with a needy person that is not afraid to tell me she loves me or appreciates as opposed to someone I’d have to wonder about, though not needy enough to push me away. Does she have certain things she like.. and even if she doesn’t like the same things as me.. can she at least be similar to me or can her outlook on life at least match mine enough.

  3. Sexuality - I really want to know what my sexual life would be down the road if I were to get into a serious relationship with this person. I attempt to imagine everything down in detail from what she looks like in different positions in bed to what it’d possibly be like with the rest of her personality. Its nice to know even as more mature couple we could be still having fun and still “doing it all.”

I’ll add to my post above.

All said and done, an average looking woman, with inner attraction, would make my day, anyday.

I am utterly speechless..

Rob..are you genuinely SO totally superficial?

I am absolutely dumbstruck by your last post.

Boy..are you going to have a severe wake-up call somewhere down the line…

I am honestly so taken-aback by your last post, that I am at a loss as to how to respond - but rest-assured, I will.

Ail :slight_smile:

I myself seek inner beauty besides outer beauty (outer beauty doesn’t have be a supermodel kind of beauty, mind you). Sometimes it’s the way she smiles or a little gesture which can make it for me…

No I’m not superficial at all; I’ve actually been out with average looking women before so I’m humbled enough by the experience. However, I like to do things that promote physical fitness, and its harder (at least around here in America) to find a woman who cares enough about her fitness, and beauty is a part of that. I’ve been to parts of Europe like Spain, and even on average the less in shape older females seem to be in better shape (attractive) compared to around here. Unfortunately for the most part around here it just seems that mostly superficial people are the only ones who even care. Its just my own personality.. I like to shoot as high as I can, as that is the only way you are going to get close to what you want. I’m a guy, so naturally I’m going to enjoy looking at pretty women.

“Humbled by the experience..?”

Dear, dear, dear..

The main problem here, is that you are FAILING to see that you present yourself in an incredibly shallow way, and if you are doing that on a website, trust me, it is spilling over into real-life.

Unless you are hiding totally behind the mask of an alter-ego, you are easily the most superficial man I have come across in at least 8 years.

STOP thinking of the outer wrapping as being so pivotally-important. Oftentimes, and I have said this time-without-number on here and elsewhere, someone may look absolutely gorgeous, but may have the intelligence of a gnat, and the personality of a slug.

Yes..you did indeed say that personality was important, but let’s now examine what you said AFTER that.

You said..(and this bit got my goat so much I was almost throwing my pen through the monitor at this point..) that even if she DIDN’T have a great personality, you had to measure whether or not her LOOKS made up for it!

Without knowing it, or perhaps, because you are in total denial, you are utterly hinged on everything aesthetic, and it is definitely going to be your downfall.

As Mak has said often, no-one is right in what they look for when looking for a mate - whether for casual bedding, or a relationship, and no-one is wrong, but you MUST stop looking at the wrapping, and delve MUCH deeper.

Do you really want to become known to women as, “That guy with all the depth of a puddle?”

No. You don’t. Women have standards too, and when someone looks great, is physically fit, but comes across as being obsessional about looks - whether his or a woman’s - it is a MAJOR turn-off.

Look again at the discussion where Ilsa, Lor, Dolly and myself talk about this. See the common thread running through it? Yes, looks are important, but they are way, WAY down the scale, and they don’t last, so much more is required to keep our attention.

Looks, like the petals on the first summer roses, wither and die in time, and we have got to have something we can still bond with, that creates and holds our interest when that time comes..

..someone we can tell, even when their face resembles a map of Gibraltar, it is so lined and craggy with age, wisdom and experience - “You still do it for me..”

Ail :slight_smile:

There is a quote I love that I think speaks to the subject here, however broadly:

“There is something crazy about a culture in which the value of beauty becomes controversial. It is crazy not to celebrate whatever reconciles us to life.”
Peter Schjeldahl

It’s natural to desire what’s beautiful, and there are all kinds of beautiful in this world. We each have complete freedom to define all that this means to us, and to evolve our sense of what’s beautiful as we gain greater understanding and appreciation for beauty in all its forms (and I’m not speaking, of course, solely about physical beauty - but it could be argued that it starts there).

To love beauty is a sign of health.

To refine our sense of beauty and desirability as we gain human experience is a sign of wisdom, and there’s no shortcut to that. Life will teach you all you need to know on that score.

Enjoy the hell out of your journey, I say!

Hi Ail. I always enjoy reading your posts and there have been some fascinating discussions here over the past year.

I wonder - do you mean this as a question of politeness/proper public behaviour? Ie whilst many men might feel similarly it creates a bad impression to say so!

Or is it deeper than that? Because if so, I wonder to what extent there is just a difference in how men and women experience the world emotionally? And maybe there is a social norm that it mostly isn’t okay to talk about this basic difference that leads to fun social games of point-scoring.

I think an important part of choosing a mate is how they make you feel. As a man you can rationally notice all the wonderful personal qualities a woman might have, but all of those things aren’t going to induce a limbic dopamine hit resulting from seeing a total babe even if at the same time you know that taking her out to dinner would be pure conversational torture. Women have a similar arational reward mechanism, but it responds to a broader set of factors and has different weights to that of men.

Of course other factors matter, but I believe that beauty does have a high weighting for most men. There are lots of beautiful girls though, so in the end personality and character is the more important reason for choosing. Tacitus articulates this aspect better than I could.

I think I know what you are saying, though just one thing I’d like to say to get it out of the way. I’m looking at your picture on this forum and not sure how current it is, though it does look good. You do seem to take care of yourself despite being a deep person; that is cool.

Anyway, yeah perhaps I have been alittle hooked on Aesthetics.. it is just something I like as I’m equally visually stimulated as well as in other areas of life.. to deny that would mean I’m not striving to live to the fullest extent.

Even with women of age I’ve seen women I’d still consider even if their age was starting to show, because beauty isn’t all in just youthful skin, but in the health of the person. There’s nothing more hot than a woman who takes care of herself.. and has vibrant energy as a result of that health and she likes to laugh and be comfortable enough to enjoy herself. I get you though; yeah there are many more important things.. but I like to think of things in terms of first impressions and last impressions. I’m sure that what I was saying sounded shallow, but with a subject like this it is almost unavoidable as I like to look at the aesthetics in things, starting with physical beauty, then character, etc.

I present myself differently in normal life though, as saying things like this are not publicly acceptable all the time, and I don’t really have that much time to think about stuff like that, but just acknowledge and enjoy the moment. On the forums its alittle different though, I’m typing to a screen and it is pretty much free opinion and insight.. like writing in a journal.

Hmm.. recently when I see a really beautiful woman I don’t get that torture any more. I wonder if I’m just used to the dopamine? I mean aside from the ‘torture’, I’d love to feel the dopamine..

Hi Rob..

Yes, it is a recent picture of me, and yes I do take care of myself on the outside, since the subject I teach, and department I run, is all about health and fitness, both of which I am passionate about - but I would like to think that people see beyond that once they get to know me.

Certainly, where “The Man” is concerned, while he does indeed CONSTANTLY boost me by telling me I look great, and doing little things that just mean so much to me, he will ALWAYS tell people when he mentions me, that what he loves best is “The heart she has that is the size of several small countries put together..”

The first time I heard him tell someone that in a pub, it totally threw me, as I had never received such a compliment in my life, and believe me, it went SO far beyond anything he could compliment me on aesthetically.

We have known each other for almost 12 years, although nothing happened between us as anything more than friends until late last year, but he knows me inside-out, and it is definitely not what’s on the outside that made things progress as they did - which was something incidentally that NEITHER of us expected, as we both told everyone we would always just be best friends.

The whole package is what you need to be looking at, but I think again, this is just something that experience, rather than age will show you.

I’m sure you will one day understand what I mean, but at least as Carrie says, you are having a fun time on your way to embroidering Life’s Rich Tapestry!

Ail :slight_smile:

I agree with you. There has to be a certain spark coming from the inside. Perhaps helped or triggered by the way one talks, looks, I don’t know, perhaps even a simple gesture.

Hard to find a well rounded woman. So far its been if they are very pretty, then anything else they have to offer sucks, and if they have a nice personality and are interested, but then they do not look too well nor do they care to even improve that. Then come along a few girls who are decent but wanting to improve their looks and I have fun flirting with them, but then they are already married. Fun, but life is full of compromises.. everyone just has their own problems. Hey, no complaining here.

I don’t know about any one else, but I’ve found just the opposite. I have long looked for and chased “personality” and ended up with women with great personalities who just happened to be outstandingly good looking. Looking at me, I can’t understand it, I’m no 6 foot tall “Cary Grant”, but some of the women I’ve ended up with have even caused people to stop and stare, they were that good looking and still had outstanding personalities and intelligence.:roll_eyes:

They DO exist. We have to look harder for them, that’s it…
I think I did meet one recently for instance.