What works best on older blond Asian women, with a limp?????

Often we report effectiveness of a compound or a mix, and tend to sort our data and perceptions along racial or physical lines. For instance,

“it had a strong effect on blonds” or “Hispanics responded strongly to this mix.”

There are multiple ways to sort our experiences, and sometimes I think that we may be conceptualizing the observable responses to pheromone exposure in a less than optimal manner. I have a strong suspicion that personality factors have as strong or greater influence than the factors we often discuss. Why are we leaving that data out, if we know it? Granted, on first meetings pheromone effects are most obvious, and also that is when you know the least about the responder’s personality, but some personality and social factors are obvious and probably should be reported.

For instance, it is a commonplace observation on this board that older women respond more positively to high doses of Androstenone. However, just for the sake of argument, assume for a moment that Androstenone response is completely determined by just 2 factors,
1 - Quantity of previous positive sexual experience
2 - Receptiveness to aggressive sexual pursuit

Now, it is true that older women in general will have had more positive sexual experiences, and that they will also in general have fewer aggressive pursuers, and so possibly be more receptive to aggressive pursuit. Thus, a person who conceptualized Androstenone response solely in terms of age would have a better-than-average ability to guess Androstenone response because older women tend to have the determining factors. However, he would misclassify certain people. For instance, he would misclassify a young woman with numerous positive sexual experiences and few pursuers. Similarly, operating from the incorrect model, he would misclassify an older woman with primarily negative sexual experiences who had many unwanted pursuers. A person who understood the correct conceptual model would correctly predict the responses of these two women to high doses of Androstenone.

The value of a conceptual model lies in its predictive power. It is naive to think of incorrect and correct, as all models are incorrect to some extent. However, in the example I gave, one model is clearly superior in terms of predictive power.

I suspect crude models based only on race or age may have a certain degree of predictive power but are far worse in predictive power than the optimal models.

I believe that personality factors including:

  • strength of inhibitions

  • introversion/extroversion

  • trust/suspicion

  • previous experience

  • conceptions of appropriate behavior in certain environments

  • adventureousness

  • the culture in which the person was raised

  • etc…
    have strong and often overlooked influences on observable behavioral responses to pheromones. The more we can refine our models to include factors of this nature, the more our predictive powers will increase.
    One of the drawbacks to the anecdotal nature of our forum experience is that we may tend to focus on certain factors, and while they have a certain amount of predictive value we are missing more accurate predictors. This is due to our own social conditioning from the forum about what is valuable to observe and report. We should continually be on the lookout for additional possible explanatory factors for behavior.

I look forward to a day when we will not only discuss some of these less visually obvious factors influencing pheromone response, but also be able to offer better suggestions and more informed guesses as to the behavioral responses of particular individuals.

My reps to ya Gone with the Wind. It certainly provides different perspective in analyzing the effect/response from pheros.

Nail on the head, GwtW. Your post encourages us to replace potentially negative generalizations with much more positive specifics. Reps to you. I will try to keep your graceful recommendations in mind.
“Refine the model.”

Any ideas on how to put this list into a mental frame that we can hold as easily as we do our current appearance based list?

Snort nice post GW :smiley: Love the title. You got a nomination coming from me :wink:

I agree with your synopsis of how pheromones work on people of different persona’s.

I think alot of the information reported and suggested is general and used to just point a person in the right direction on what may or may not work for them. They need to test with the products there is no way around it. Peoples personalities just vary to much to come up with 1 formula that will work perfectly for every person. We can only suggest with the information a person is willing to provide about there target. What makes it even more difficult is that alot of people dont have a direct target they want to effect but a gerenral range of the type they are interested in.

I often ask or take into consideration the above factors especially in the intro section. when someone asks for advice. I totally agree it helps a great deal in understanding the products and pointing them in the right direction when they have 1 target person in mind. Most people dont have that though, so predicting really is all that can be offered.

This would be great and I look forward to that day as well. I occasionally notice a little of that information seeping into peoples posts. Mostly from those with a SO or target who are willing to share a little personal info on that person on a open forum.

I encourage people to include as much as possible as GW has suggested, especially when reporting because he is right it is vital information on being able to use pheromones to your best advantage. I think its a good idea GW reps to you.

Tisha

I think we need to be open and receptive at this point. Any frame has the potential to exclude potentially valuable perceptions.

One thing I find valuable is to debreif responders on thier internal experiences, if possible. They can give invaluable information on what their subjective experience was at the time they exhibited responsive behaviors. Those data points can give us valuable clues as to what factors we may need to pay more attention to.

All right! But I’m typically not willing to sacrifice the flow of a developing relationship on the altar of science … and by the time I might be comfortable asking those questions, they are no longer current memories, overlaid with multiple subsequent impressions.

Can you tell me: how do you debrief? Perhaps there’s an opportunity I’m missing if I only had a workable technique that wouldn’t interrupt “the flow.”

Cheers
MarkL

I’m not trying to pick anyone up, so I may be freer of worry about messing up developing relationships.

I just ask what people are feeling or thinking. Woman in particular seem to be oriented towards feelings and internal experience, and are often pleased to talk about it. I’d be a little subtle and not mention unusual behaviors if that would lead to embarrassment. Perhaps something like “I’ve been wondering about the impression I leave. What was your first impression when you saw me tonight?”

In order to get an honest answer you may have to wait until a little rapport develops.

In a business situation I’ve addressed some unusual behaviors directly, saying “Were you thinking xx when you did YY?”, and received candid answers, “No, I was thinking zz.”

Glad to see that my intuition on these things is generally agreeed upon as correct.

What’s with the red, bold articles???

The easiest way would be “gangstas,” “geeks,” “academic-type people (non-nerds but they get As),” “stereotypical cookie grandma,” “stereotypical angry grandma,” “biker,” etc. You still run into some problems though, for instance, “gangstas” dont have a lot of differences in opinion on their views about sex, how to interact with people, and where to go on a date, but “geeks” vary WIDELY and they’re not even always social outcasts (or if they are, they dont feel like they are because they hang out with other geeks and didnt feel like “that guy who had no friends in HS”). Bikers (the ones and Harleys and Hondas, not the ones on Yamahas and Suzukis - from what I have seen the latter group isn’t really different then a “regular American”) will usually agree on some things, like the fact that you should physically protect your girlfriend at all costs, even if you don’t even love her yet, but diagree on other things, such as liberal vs. conservative. So some sterotype adjectives will work better then others.

Another way might be to say your location. This wouldn’t really work very well say at work, unless you work in someplace like Hot Topic or a dance club or any other place where a lot of “similar people types” hang out, but if you can say that a pheromone had better effect at a dance club (where most of the girls were grinding up against you and obviouosy looking for something for one night) then it did at the bar (where the people were mellow and a lot of them were married couples), you can sometimes make a little bit of an interpretation from that. (The parenthesis are what the poster is saying about his pheros, not me meaning clubs or bars are usually like this.) It might have a different effect at your Christain church, where, people may be very different from each other just like geeks, but if your church is incredibly conservative, maybe most people there will have certain views about what is “appropiate” or about how to interact with peopel they dont know.

The stereotype thing though is really the best I can think kof unless you really do know the personality differences between your people or groups and can describe them. Of course being able to group people like that isn’t exactly something that doesn’t happen often (menaing the second way; "the people who were shy reacted one way and the people who were outgoing reacted a different way).

Sometimes you can also see something based on race or ethnicity. For instance if someone on this board who is known to have moved to America from Korea10 years ago at the age of 35 (so he’s now 45), and is known to hang out a lot with his family and make friends throgh the Korean church, posts about how Asians reacted differently to a product then white people did, you can probably conclude that this product will have a specific, different effect on either Asians from Asia or on Koreans, because even though he is talking literally about race, the people who believe it is personality and culture rather then race will know that the Asians he hangs around with also have Asian or Korean culture.

If someone who is known to hang around with the people who are like negative black stereotypes (who do not always have balck skincolor) posts that black people reacted differently then white people, you may be able to conclude that people who act like the negative black stereotype will react that way, but black intellectuals will not (nessecerily), and neither will Africans. This paragraph may at first galnce seem offensive while the first paragraph did not. But I made a point to use an example that would seem offensive at first, because when talking about what works on who we do need to be sure we are clear. So if anyone is offended please realize that I am posting this solely to try and think of ways to catergorize; the people the example poster hangs around may be loud, speak ebonics, and be prone to hanging out in large groups. There is so such thing as a race that has these attributes, but a person who belongs to a group of people like this is more likely to mean that type of people when she refers to black people. A Mexican who doesn’t speak English is more likely to be referring to stereotypical “Latinos” who like to hang at clubs when they refer to Mexicans. Not because all Mexicans do this, or even because he specifically means to talk about just the ones who do, but because when that person hangs around with his Mexican (or black, in the first example) friends, that is the type of people they are. But if a white person refers to Mexicans, they may be talking about all of them.

If there is anyone who read my last paragraph, understands it, and is not offended, but knows of people that did get offended, can you please help me out in trying to explain it? The reason the paragraph is so long is because I am afraid people will think I am stereotyping real people no matter how much I say to show otherwise.

One important factto consider, somewhat related to what I just said about what we can interpret based on what we in some cases may know about the person posting:

The easiest way to say this would be to add a “when applicable,” but that doesn’t really explain it. I just want to make a note that America and Canada, and probably England or Holland or similar Eupropean countries, do not really have a culture for our purposes. England certainly has a different culture then America or Canada, but though one of those cultural things is being more open about both sex and swearing, the fact that the person doesn’t nessecerily mean they are open about either, and the fact thatthey came form America doesn’t nessecerily mean they aren’t. But if the person came from China you can probably say that he thinks men and women should have certain roles in the house - this may not be true of this individual but it is uniform enough that it can be used in descriptive postings. But why did I say something so obvious? Because within Aerican, Canada, or others, there are some cultures that do have views like China or India might - hippie, ghetto, or “small country town” for example (the small country town only works if they don’t have acess to "outside culture, though, since there are surprisingly just as many System of a Down fans in small Alabama towns as there are in Chicago suburbs). Hippie and ghetto have acess to outside culture, but the ghetto people usually ignore it and end up having similar ideas as the other residents if they are raised there, and hippie people - well - variation is really the entire point of it.

In some cases religions might be able to be used. Saying someone is Christian doesn’t really tell you anything about them at all. Some people just say it but don’t “feel” it (so that if Christains did have a personality these people would not have that personality), some people are conservative because they are Christain and others say the entire point of being a Christain is not to be too conservative. A Satanist or a would be the same way; since they’re only uniform belief is not to harm children there’s nothing you can say personality-wise. A Buddhist however may be more “open,” since being “open” is part of Buddhism, and someone is unlikely to say they are Buddhist if they don’t have a reason to. As far as I know that one doen’t even “run in families.” Hindis and Orthodox Greeks will have even more personality traits in common (though I’m not exactly sure what they are for those two). So in SOME cases if you can say members of a religion acted a certain way it MIGHT help.

Those are just some ideas, most of which are not very good ones, but I can’t think of anything else.

GWTW:

Very good post with some very good insights. I concur that the reaction to pheromones is often as tied to personality and everything that goes into making it as it does with age and ethnicity, although as you point out, they are often intertwined. And I will get back to that in a minute.

Tisha (& many other “senior” users) also understand this as they try to match the pheromone to the user based on both the users personality and intentions but also their intended target audience, both based on physical (age/ethnicity/etc.) characteristics but also their personality when it is known.

Then we can get into a real potential mess - the old nautre vs. nurture question. Hence my comment “personality and everything that goes into making it”. I know a lot of us are enough into self-introspection of one form or another to know that we (to include our personality and hence behavior) are a complex mix of nature (genetics) and nurture. Just look at twin studies. For me personally, ferreting out negative behaviors that come from what everyone would call a truely wonderful “Family of Origen” is a constantly ongoing work in progress. And it is sometimes amazing to hear the old “your father did that when he was young” kinda thing.

Of course the big problem is that unless you are very familiar with your intended phero audience, it is almost impossible to to know an individuals key personality or behavioral traits. Unless you really study them carefully before approaching them and then it helps to be a good study of body language at a minimum.

So I guess the thrust of this may go into your last question in the original post - How much behavior can we assume due to physical tangibles we can quantify - to include observable behavior but also tieing that into age/sex/ethnicity?

For an individual yes, but a lot of times, especially in a high-school or college-like setting (any setting where a large, 100+ group of people can form their own mini-groups), there are traits that are there overall. For instance when one person comes up to you when you wear “date inducing pheromone X,” you cant base anything on personality because you have no idea what it is. But if 9 people from the cheerleader clique and only 1 person from the pocket-protecter clique approach you, you might conclude that this pheromone POSSIBLY works better on people who are outgoing, or maybe on people who are “more used to being around a lot of people”.

xpomg is correct. Culture (or subculture) is usually fairly easy to identify.

How about personality traits like introvert/extrovert? You don’t need to know someone well to peg them with that.

As you get to know someone, you naturally delve deeper into personality. That is a good time to reflect backward on how that personality responded.

Also, as we get to know people we can ask what they were thinking.

…and I love the Title of this post :cool:

NICE ONE!

XPOMG - on a sidenote, I think it would be erroneous to disclude a discussion on Canada/America from a cultural standpoint.

The EastCoast-WestCoast cultural divide (in both countries) is actually rather impressive. Moreso, the difference between small-town america and the larger, more urban coastal America is dramatic.

As far as Canada-US goes… even between geographic counterparts there is enough difference to be important (although I would agree that the diference between Vancouver and L.A is less then betwen L.A. and New York)

You do know this post is from 2007, right?:roll_eyes::smiley:

Hmm… indeed it is