Agreed!
Curiosity a
Agreed!
Curiosity and learning makes life enjoyable.
To further this idea… I think the Heisenberg theorem works FOR women and AGAINST men.
In some areas of life, women seem to fair well in observer mode, while men don’t.
In fact, empiracally, women make some of the best observers. In the field of security, men are known to make their decision based on one bit of data, one “convincer”. Women security are known to dig more… they’re often tougher to pass at airport security, for instance.
The problem with being active is that your charm, looks, persona could be the reason for attraction. If you simply want attraction and don’t care how it came, fine. But if you are looking to pinpoint the cause, it’s harder to do this.
On the other hand, you make a good point about being passive. The experiement is set up to fail, most of the time. If some sort of attraction or indicator of it does happen, the upside is it’s easier to deceipher why it happened.
If you’re already Rico Suave, that’s where statistics kick in, even if you handle statistics as an internal tally.
Statistically, multivariate testing (MVT) is actually a hell of a lot more accurate than single variate. Life is 3d, there’s no way around it. When you make it 2d, results don’t transfer.
That’s why you have all those studies showing that X, Y and Z kill cancer. And then they don’t kill cancer in humans.
What went wrong?
Well, do you know where they kill cancer? In test tubes and petri dishes.
The results don’t translate.
There’s a lot of useless science going on. I certainly don’t have all the answers, trust me. What I can say that is that the scientific method certainly leaves something to be desired. It will evolve and change from what you currently see, since it’s highly ineffective the way it is now, especially for anything involving humans.
Statisticians seem to have some of the answers. Dr. Genichi Taguchi-fy social experiments.
Of course, if you’re not all that charismatic, it’s easier to sort between what effects are from the pheromones and what are from you.
Also, some molecules are easy to sort between what is you, and what isn’t.
Androstadienone is very easy to sort, for me, anyway. It’s because it has a very negative effect on me unless I’m used to it. It tends to make people react very favorably to me, despite the fact that it makes me feel boxed in. Makes me very quiet. So either I’m attractive whilst I play dead, or it’s the -dienone.
Yes, stats seem to be the answer. You need large sample sizes and a lot of record keeping, with and without pheromones.
Thats a really interestting idea there, ive read quite a bit about phytoestrogens and there is a little debate as to whether they are infact feminizing, or on the otherhand, that they do the opposite, occupying receptors that more potent estrogens would bind to and having less of an effect. Its also possible that they bind to aromatase enzymes reducing conversion of testosterone to estrogen (technically some beta estradiol compound) if you were to throw around idea, of course this is debatable also and may even depend on the dose or blood serum concentration.
(I did a bit of studying of this stuff when I was learning how to best throw together my bodybuilding diet and figuring out what suppliments to take, I dont go out of my way to eat alot of soy, but Im not paranoid and have even taken weight gain suppliments with soy protein concentrate/isolate.)
When I was eating a totally vegan diet some years back I lost any aggression and felt like I was too feminine. I cried at the drop of a hat. The woman I was after felt like I was more of a “girlfriend” than a man.
The women that I attracted at that time were mostly bisexual.
Chinese women used to feed a straying husband Soy because of it’s neutering effect.
I wonder what happens to women who become vegans.. do they become more feminine..?
Thanks for that discussion! Really interesting to hear your opinions.
Have there ever been any studies done on Blood type and the phero signature that different blood types give?
They get estrogen dominance. Estrogen and Progesteron are meant to be in balance, when they are out of balance, you get irregular periods, painful periods, PMS etc. Too little progesteron makes women less calm and patient. It also raises testosterone levels.
Soy in excess is not good for anyone, but it is least damaging to adult women. I know two boys, currently about 18, who were fed soy formula as babies, one of them was and is also a vegetarian. Both are very meek, gentle and effeminate. One of them is gay and the other bisexual. They both have something womanlike. I would not feel embarrased to change in front of them they way I would feel if a man was in the room. Something similar happens with heavier guys, they seem softer, more meek. When you meet a lean, hard-bodied man, he exudes something that is at once threatening and alluring. Like you know he is sexually attracted to you and could overpower you if he wanted to. Now if it is a trusted friend, the threat is tempered because you know he will not use your physical vulnerability, and then it is just really sexy. I guess that because of the sexual tension, it feels more like the old meaning of boy friend, which is very different from a girl friend even if no kiss has happened yet. A gay guy, or a vegan guy, or a fat guy is really just like a girl friend.
I agree with most of MHarris’ posts. Pheromones will work best when you go with human nature, rather than against it.
I guess that, especially nowadays there are some masculine women who will approach men they find attractive. Perhaps if you seek a woman who will wear the pants you could just look good, act gentle and sweet, and wear your pheros and go where many of them are. It’s nice that people who walk the line gender wise have the opportunity to be themselves in this era.
That said, 90% of women will have normal feminine wiring and will generally not approach men or if they do, not feel so happy about their conquest. Most people will feel happier playing the role of their own sex and are also more successful doing just that because they can use their inborn talents.
I agree with a lot of your observations. I was for several years, an avid hobby bodybuilder, and obviously consumed huge amounts of meat during that time. I also only drank spirits. During this period, I was generally extremely arrogant and aggressive, in fact it seemed to be a progressive thing, getting worse as time went on and eventually resulted in several bad altercations.
I then realised I needed to sort myself out and actually became a vegetarian for a year or so and found myself becoming more and more docile during that time. People began to react differently around me, I guess they saw me as less threatening, and I actually became less successful with girls (although in fairness I wasn’t particularly hunting girls like I used to during that time).
Now im back eating meat, although far less than I used to and I dont train as intensely or often as I used to. People react to me as an alpha again now, even though im a reasonably average size now, in fact im only maybe 7 or 8 pounds bigger tha when I was a vegetarian. Thus I feel at least some of it must be diet.
This is a very good post, and reps to you for it, Butterfly. It is a nice insight into the female view of the “sexual tension” equation, and explains a lot for me.
Thanks for the compliments and the reps!
So what about people who tend to get aggressive/loud/mean when they drink? Don’t people who consume more protein (steak and potato guys) produce more testosterone, and hence become more aggressive? and one must add the cultural mix, (coal miners in west virginia vs investment bankers in upper ny …I believe there is much more to the question…most of those folks drink beer with different out comes…any experiment has to be double blind and have a control group to decide all one way or the other…but the experiment, I think does deserve a look…how would you set it up?
WRT aggression:
Sugar and additives also increase aggression, and excessive intake of carbohydrates compared to exercise can cause high blood sugar, which disturbs the hormones. If you use a lot of sugar and grain, and coffee on top of that all day, you can feel all revved up with an edge of irritation throughout the day. The high-crash-high cycle of sugar and caffeine gets on your nerves.
I’m not sure how a testosterone rush feels, but I assume it is another kind of aggression, mixed with a sexual arousal and a healthy, happy masculine state of mind.
A guy who eats a ton of protein and lives healthy, may be cutting down on sugar and grain. So he may be high testosterone, but feeling very healthy, happy and not irritated. I would expect him to act masculine in a positive, healthy way. He would sublimate aggression into a steadfast, ambitious, assertive, protective go-getter thing, I guess.
A guy who eats little meat, but a sort of junk food vegetarian lifestyle with a sedentary profession could be a passive aggressive, easily ticked off snide bitch. The sort of guy who insults his female colleagues and interferes when his ‘friend’ is talking to a pretty girl.
The coal miner diet is a combination of meat and potatoes with lots of coffee, sugar and beer on top, but strenuous exercise burns it off. I would assume most coalminers to have reasonably balanced hormones. I don’t think they will be snide to each other on the job. Now if they retire or get laid off and sit at home eating the same, that is a disaster waiting to happen.
The other thing is self control. You can feel very irritated and aggressive, but be aware of it and close the door to your office, drink a cup of herbal tea and avoid confrontations until the mood ebbs away. Another person may respond to every little irritation within by acting out. Alcohol does take away inhibition, and opens the floodgates to whatever emotion people are repressing, some drunks get aggressive, other funny, other cry and again others get sexual.
Beer not only contains phytoestrogens, but also alcohol and acetylaldehyde. Additional acetylaldehyde is produced from alcohol metabolism by our liver. . .
Some research suggests that enzymes important for both testosterone and pheromone production are inhibited by alchohol and acetylaldehyde.
Someone should integrate this info into AA and high school alcohol awareness classes, “Yeah man, science shows that too much boozing and you’ll be less of a stud and your body won’t be able to make your natural chick-magnet chemicals bro”.
Check this out!:
“Ethanol administration decreases plasma testosterone levels acutely in man and animals. The specific mechanism responsible for this effect is, at present, unknown. We have examined the hypothesis that ethanol or acetaldehyde directly inhibits the enzymes required for testosterone synthesis from pregnenolone. Microsomes prepared from testes of normal adult rats were isolated and assayed, in the presence and absence of ethanol or acetaldehyde, for activity of 3β-hydroxy-Δ5-steroid dehy-drogenase (E.C.1.1.1.145)/3-oxosteroid Δ5–Δ4 isomerase (EC5.3.3.1) complex, testosterone 17β-dehydrogenase (ECl.1.1.64), and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone aldolase (EC4.1.2.30), three of the four enzymes required for the biosynthesis of testosterone from pregnenolone. Ethanol at levels commonly seen in the blood of chronic alcohol-ingesting men was shown to inhibit the activity of 17α-hydroxyprogesterone aldolase in a concentration-dependent manner. In addition, acetaldehyde was shown to act as an inhibitor of 17α-hydroxyprogesterone aldolase in the presence of androstenedione.”
For a nice key to the enzymes and pathways check out my favorite link for meandering biochemical pathways, the KEGG database. The pathways are not species-specific but are still very helpful. To be sure the pathway described is in your organism of interest you’ve gotta do a quick protein search of its genome. Here is the link for androgen metabolism that has all the enzymes described in the abstract above. You can find adrenosterone, androsterone, and how a bunch of the others are biosynthesized here. To get all the way back to cholesterol just click on C21 steroid metabolism and it will link to pathways back to cholesterol. Lot goin on in deez nuts, no?
I think I’ll lay off the booze and spend the money saved on pheros instead .. .
This is a great thread.
Just curious, what does this mean for Asian guys? A lot of Asians consume a good amount of soy, could this mean something and the reason why supposedly Asian men produce less -none?
It has also been said that a lot of soy consumption MAY lower testosterone. I don’t think that there has been a final say on this, but it brings a new light if what MHarris posted is true.
I have to say butterfly I like your info thanks. My boyfriend is actually like the two boys you described.He’s been calming down more though I started getting him to eat protein because he does too much physical activity to not balance his diet for muscle needs.
Oddly most of the phyto guys I know have bad moodswings.
I’m wondering what a gal would eat to boost progesterone ,testosterone, and dhea-s.
Or to lower one of the hormone indexes.
I’m also wondering what pheros would help these effeminate guys out?