I know I am not the only one who makes his own phero-mixes using putatives and experimones. Naturally, it is sometimes necessary to change the concentrations of my, “base solutions,” so that that final product is of another given concentration.
So, herein lies my dilemma: When I am diluting solutions in order to change their concentrations, should I use EtOH, DPG or both? If both, then what kind of ratios?
I am aware that even AD’s Instant line contain some DPG, for the desired diffusion effect. So, bearing in mind that my concoctions will eventually end up in a ToGo bottle, how much DPG should I use in my dilutions?
To put it another way: Imagine that I am mixing EST 1mg/ml (from LoveScent, so I assume its EtOH only) with Dilutant X. If this, “X,” is a mixture of EtOH and DPG, precisely how much of each is contained in the solution?
I hope that makes sense, I really appreciate anyone with any feedback. Thanks
Lol, I can’t answer your question as I’m not even sure what EtOH and DPG are..
Two people immediately come to mind, DancingJoker is known as a good homebrewer, as is SteveO. There are several others who mix their own products and can probably comment.
I haven’t a clue what EtOH, DPG are either. However I’ve been homebrewing for the past 4 years. I only use highly concentrated products, chemset or otherwise, for mixing. My fav mix is really basic: 5 parts cologne to 1 part NPA (concentrated androstenone), delivered in a Sephora pocket atomizer. Even diluted thus it’s pretty strong and the funk of -none bleeds through after a few hours. An interesting variant is to mix chemset androstenone and androstAnone 1:1 and cut with cologne 5:1. A bit mellower as the androstAnone takes some of the angry edge off without reducing the horny.
Another staple is my “holy trinity” of androstenone, androsterone & androstenol. Again I use highly concentrated chemset products, usually from Stone labs. I’ve mixed these in various ratios, including an Alter Ego clone, but for general use I’ve developed a preference for a 1:1:1 ratio (sorta like Ammo but with my fav cologne). Once the raw mix is complete, I cut with 5 parts cologne to 1 part holy trinity.
I’ve tried hundreds of variations but I keep coming back to those two. I have at least a dozen chemset pheromones but I’ve only found 2 beyond the holy trinity useful (A-1 & androstAnone).
There are many P series and a few experimones in my cupboard. Unfortunately they’re far too weak for mixing. They’re really designed for direct application only. However, if you don’t mind spending the cash, you can custom order experimones at chemset strength of 100+mcg but it’s pricey.
My fav colognes are Burberry Weekend, Issey Miyake Summer (2005), Chrome & Bulgari Aqua. I also have a huge stock of EOs for custom fragrances I brew in a little Everclear.
Some of the 4X AD products are strong enough to be mixed with other pheromones and/or cologne. I played with a bottle of IS this way. I decided IS didn’t do much for me–too subtle. Oddly, the spray TAA has proved to be excellent when paired with alpha androstenol.
I posted a discussion about mixing concentrations a while ago:
You can use either EtOH or DPG as a dilutent depending on the duration of effects that you’re looking for. Using more EtOH results in a faster diffusing mix that has more immediate effects, whereas using more DPG results in a slower diffusing mix that has effects accumulate over time. You can adjust the ratio of EtOH to DPG to adapt your mixes to the desired effectiveness rate, and both components are good for use in a to-go bottle.
For the mixing calculation, let’s assume the following:
E = concentration of EtoH in a component
D = concentration of DPG in a component
E_EST = concentration of EtOH in EST at 1 mg/ml
E_X = concentration of EtOH in Dilutent X
D_EST = concentration of DPG in EST at 1 mg/ml
D_X = concentration of DPG in Dilutent X
E_Mix = concentration of EtOH in a mix
D_Mix = concentration of DPG in a mix
Conc_EST = concentration of EST in a mix (%)
Conc_X = concentration of Dilutent X in a mix (%)
To calculate the E% and D% in a combined mix, use the following formula:
For example, with EST in 100% EtOH, let’s say that A = 50%. In a 50% EST / 50% X mix, this gives us:
E_Mix = 50% * 100% ] + [50% * 50% ] = 50% ] + 25% ] = 75% EtOH
D_Mix = [50% 0% ] + 50% (100-50)% ] = 0% ] + 25%] = 25% DPG
Thanks everyone, especially you DJ, for such thorough responses. I am way too tired to even try to look at all that right now ;-). I’ll check it out tomorrow right after I post a field report from this evening. But for now… it’s past my bedtime.
It looks like to me that Dancing Joker has given us algebraic tautologies which evade the question more than they answer it.
Obviously, if you put something close to 100% DPG into a TOGO bottle it is not going to spray. I haven’t tried it, but these atomizers seem to be designed for regular liquids, not oils. OTOH if you have something like EST diluted in close to 100% alcohol it is going to dissipate rather quickly when you’d like for the effects to stick around for a while.
I have made an alcohol based mix which seems to be quite effective for only twenty minutes to half an hour. I suspect that FututureKill’s EST is similarly short lived. Many of APR’s alcohol based consumer products last three or four hours. So… without diluting the alcohol based mix any more than necessary and without gumming up the atomizer with excessive DPG, what is a reasonable amount of DPG to be added to an alcohol mix to slow down the dissipation rate?
What percentage DPG will work well in a TOGO bottle? One percent? Five percent? Ten percent? Twenty five percent? Fifty percent? I don’t have a clue, but for someone who has made these kind of mixes, it has got to be pretty easy to give a ballpark answer here.
I have another concern. Does anybody remember the word miscible from chemistry class? If you add a ml of alcohol to a ml of DPG does that give you 2 ml? Not a trick question. Not a stupid question. If you add one ml of water and one ml of alcohol, the resulting volume is less than two ml. That is because alcohol is miscible in water. The molecules of alcohol and water kinda fit in between each other so they share the same space and take up less volume together than as separate liquids. Does anyone know if the same thing happens with ethanol and DPG?
Another thing I found: According to Jasmin there are 36 drops of DPG (TAA oil) per ml, 540 drops per (15ml) bottle. There are 40 sprays per 5ml TOGO bottle. That means sprays are much larger than drops.
DJ gave exact equations and a great explanation as to how diffusion rates would be affected by dilutent ratios. While he did not provide an answer as to an exact amount or ratio of DPG or EtOH to use, he did provide excellent information on how DPG and EtOH affect diffusions rates.
I have combined numerous oil based products and EO’s in the 5ML to-go bottles and they work perfectly fine. In fact SteveO just sent me a couple of ICM mixes in a DPG base in to-go bottles and they spay just fine. And, as an added benefit the bad batch of to-go bottles from awhile back do not leak when they contained EO’s, cologne oil or DPG in concentrations of 20% or higher.
If you read the quoted text in my response, it was obvious that I was answering FutureKill’s first post and not his second, which is what you quoted. Since it is obvious that you are more informed on the matter being discussed, I will leave it to you to address and answer FutureKill’s concerns. Good luck!
Sorry to piss you off, Potions Professor. It seemed to me that FutureKill’s second post was just a more succinct re-statement of his first query. You have over two thousand rep points for just over a hundred posts. That is a ratio of more than twenty. You are obviously delivering pearls of wisdom to some people. I don’t think I’ve seen a ratio of as much as five elsewhere. All your equations reminded me of high school math class where the more you ask, the farther you get from the answer… Until the ultimate cop-out where the teaches declares, “Because that’s the way it’s defined.” Which, of course, goes nowhere in explaining the purpose of something being thusly defined. At first, I thought you were giving equations for calculating dispersion rates, and I was really impressed. But then I realized all this math just side-stepped the whole question. I guess you read a different question than I did.
Hey, I’m just trying to get some straight answers here. I think I have the same questions that FutrueKill has. Maybe not. Everything I know is in my previous post and most of that I learned twenty minutes previously by using Google and the pheromonetalk search function.
It seems to me we need to know what percentage of DPG makes a good sprayable solution with staying power (but without being unnecessarily “oily” since we are starting with an alcohol solution). At least, that is my question. I think that is what FutureKill is going for. My guess is that answer is more likely to come from experience than from a mathematical calculation. And I suspect there are folks out there who have some pretty good rules of thumb for how much DPG is good to mix in.
If the answer is a nice round number like 20% then we could just put one ml of DPG into a TOGO bottle and fill with the ethanol solution, without putting pencil to paper. For more complex solutions the equations could be quite helpful. I am hoping someone who has already done some of this will share the results thay have gotten with different amounts of DPG.
I used to mix with oil/DPG to try to make the effect longer lasting. From past experiences, I found no magic answer. Lots of misses as pheros delute easily and lose their effect, but here are some findings:
With alcohol based primary pheros mixing with oil, I’d use 1:1 or 2:1 if it is strong, eg NPA or TUTH x2.
With mixes or weaker pheros, eg Ammo, IO, IH, I’d try 3:1 or 4:1 even. Results are not too flash, as it dies in 1-2 hrs or so.
I had better luck with chemset with higher concentrations, 1:1 does produce better consistant results, goes for 3 hrs or so.
That is all without adding cologne, which is a challenge in itself.
First of all, do you mean that if we’re dealing with a pheromone dissolved in alcohol ONLY and we want to augment it with DPG you would suggest 1:1 or 2:1?
You make reference to using mixes/weaker pheromones with 3:1 or 4:1 concentrations. Did you mean to say that such a mix would fade after a couple of hours? If so, why would you recommend it?
Also, (please correct me if I’m wrong here) how could the number of compounds (i.e. chemset or MX) in a solution have any bearing on its diffusion rate? I mean, ultimately we’re concerned about molecular mass. That is, how much stuff is in the solution, not how many different kinds of stuff we can find–it ain’t a scavenger hunt .
Is it possible that the different molecules ‘stick’ to each other, changing the diffusion rate? It wouldn’t change their respective molecular weights, but could impact diffusion rates.
